Persephone

[Mike182]

Feathers, Nutshell and I got distracted in a different thread, and started talking about Persephone and Hades, and the mythology surrounding them.

this thread is to continue the discussion, without getting in the way of another thread's progress

so, where shall we begin? im gonna do some searching on their stories, but the one i was brought up with was that persephone wonderd into the underworld as an act of rebellion against her mothers over protection, and when she was down there, saw something in Hades that others could not see. she saw his true passion, and fell in love with him!

Demeter is Persephone's mother, and Zeus is her Father. Demeter is the goddess of Earth, and she was over protective of Persephone. when her daughter ran away from her, Demeter cast a bitter winter over all the Earth, to last until her daughter returns to her.

Persephone was then torn between Hades, the man she loved, and her love for the people of the earth who would suffer her mothers eternal wrath! she chose to split the year into two halfs, and the first half she would spend with her mother, spring and summer, and then she would decend into the underworld to be with her lover, and her mothers cold would decend upon the earth for autumn and winter.

but of course, this is not the only variation of that story, but i like this one, i just find it so much more romantic

 

[Feathers in Hair]

While I like that version, I also find the other, more traditional one, rewarding- that Persephone was taken to the underworld against her will and that eating the seeds wasn't so much an act of rebellion, but one of either ignorance (she didn't know what they would do), mercy (she wanted to tend to the souls) or love (to stay with Hades).

Kore, in her aspect as someone who visited the underworld involuntarily but chooses to go back to help others, seems to be the perfect patron or example for those who have survived a horrific situation but is then willing to help others because of the experience she's been through. Perhaps because I see her in this manner, I prefer this version of the story, but I accept whatever version that people enjoy finding wisdom in.

 

[Mike182]

While I like that version, I also find the other, more traditional one, rewarding- that Persephone was taken to the underworld against her will and that eating the seeds wasn't so much an act of rebellion, but one of either ignorance (she didn't know what they would do), mercy (she wanted to tend to the souls) or love (to stay with Hades).

Kore, in her aspect as someone who visited the underworld involuntarily but chooses to go back to help others, seems to be the perfect patron or example for those who have survived a horrific situation but is then willing to help others because of the experience she's been through. Perhaps because I see her in this manner, I prefer this version of the story, but I accept whatever version that people enjoy finding wisdom in.

are their any other versions that you know of? ive only really known the one i posted, and it aint got no seeds in it

 

[Feathers in Hair]

Hehee, you'd think, what with her being one of my favorite goddesses, that I'd know more versions! I find myself lacking!

Most versions I've been told or read have Persephone picking flowers with her fellow maidens on a beautiful day, when either her beauty, her laughter, or simply her light attracts the attention of Hades.

The seeds mentioned in 'my' version are pomegrante seeds, which Kore's sometimes given when she arrives at the underworld, sometimes toward the end of her stay. In a lot of traditions, even if you're alive, when you eat the food of the underworld, one has to stay there. I think the amount she ate was a deciding factor in Zeus' ruling of how long she would have to stay in the underworld out of each year. For example, she ate 6 or 4 seeds out of 12, so she would stay down that many months of the year.

Because of the love between Kore and her mom, though, I always got the impression that she was nearly as sad as her mother at her being taken away as her mom was.

Another topic worth bringing up is the Elusian (sp?) Mysteries.

 

[Mike182]

Another topic worth bringing up is the Elusian (sp?) Mysteries.

can i get a witness please someone? it's post number 4 and she's already changing topic :biglaugh:

 

[Feathers in Hair]

Heheee, I swear it's not changing the topic! Witness, take note! (I'd think it more noteworthy if my scatterbrained self reached post 4 and had not veered off topic!)

From this helpful site:

The youthful Persephone was gathering roses and lilies, violets and crocuses, hyacinths and narcissuses, when the earth sundered and Pluto, ruler of the Underworld, arose from the ground. The god seized the maiden and carried her off to the lower realms for his bride. Deep in grief, her mother Demeter traveled the land until Apollo, the sun god, related the fate of her daughter. The Earth Mother retired to Eleusis and in her sorrow withheld the blessing of growth from all the seeds of the earth.

- From traditional Greek lore.

Demeter and her daughter Persephone were associated with fertility and harvest. They were also representative of the feminine call to men of the wonders of domestic bliss. To farmers, the favor of the pair was crucial. Pre-season sacrifices and offerings of first fruits were widespread. The harvest festivals were celebrated only by women, and much of it remained secretive.

This sense of true mystery surrounding the rites of Demeter and Persephone has been long debated. Yet, it seems natural considering the great mystery contained in the processes of birth, growth, death and regeneration. These are the primary aspects of life which the pair govern.

Demeter and Persephone
Eleusinian Mystery Initiation
Image: Rhey Cedron

The rites of Eleusis were the most influential of the Mystery religions. These ceremonies were accessible to both sexes. What initiates came away with was a sense of security in the afterlife, and a sense of bounty guaranteed in this world. Above all, Demeter was a provider, a premier mother. Through the rituals, regeneration of growth on earth was secured by mortal union with the goddess. Less of a secretive mystery, than intimate participation in the cycles of life.

"In all ages of which we have any literary records, we find a tradition of a recondite knowledge which could not be disclosed to any save to those who had undergone the severest tests as to their worthiness to receive it. This knowledge was very generally known under the term of theMysteries..."

- William Kingsland​

 

[nutshell]

I'll be your witness regarding her changing topics. hehe

As for Persephone, the version I've heard was the one Feather's first posted.

I'm curious. Do the Elusian Mysteries have anything to do with the Elusian Fields of the afterlife or am I confusing things??? And now that I think about it, what's the differences between the underworld ruled by Hades and the Elusian Fields?

 

[Feathers in Hair]

Hmm... The Fields that I'm more familiar with are the Elysium ones, which may be a similar spelling. (Or something else. I'm horrible at getting things confused!) I believe that, among the Greeks, the Fields were seen to be more of a paradise than the 'normal' afterlife. I think it's supposed to be at the end of the world, and is the area where the blessed, or those chosen by the gods party-hearty after death. So perhaps the Fields are a sub-area? *mulls this over*

 

[Fluffy]

Hmm... The Fields that I'm more familiar with are the Elysium ones, which may be a similar spelling. (Or something else. I'm horrible at getting things confused!) I believe that, among the Greeks, the Fields were seen to be more of a paradise than the 'normal' afterlife. I think it's supposed to be at the end of the world, and is the area where the blessed, or those chosen by the gods party-hearty after death. So perhaps the Fields are a sub-area? *mulls this over*

It is very difficult to talk about the "Greek" views on the afterlife because we actually do not know a great deal about what they thought and what we do know seems to indicate a very big change in opinion over the centuries. Homer paints the underworld as a gloomy, weary place where even the Greek's greatest hero, Achilles, is miserable of death. This surely indicates that a heaven equivilant did not feature in Greek religion back then.

Now when Rome conquered Greek, things get considerably more mixed up. The Elysium fields is certainly the Roman term for that part of the afterlife but I am unsure as to whether the Greeks had an equivilant by that point, 600 years after Homer.

Further, going with the shift we see from the Romano influences, I wonder if the second version of the story is a consequence of Roman conquest of Greece? It certainly seems out of place mixed with other mortal/immortal relationships such as Cassandra and Apollo etc.

 

[nutshell]

Hmmm....thanks for the information. I'm guessing I was getting two different places with similar spellings confused.

The movie Gladiator had added meaning for me once I learned that the "field" the main character keeps seeing when he's close to death is the Elysium Fields. It was also nice that his wife and son were waiting for him. I suppose it appealed to my LDS Christian view of families being together forever in a type of paradise.

Also, you mentioned Homer. I enjoyed the Illiad a lot and thought the Odyssey was pretty good too. I'd love to see either performed orally, as was originally done.

 

[Feathers in Hair]

H

The movie Gladiator had added meaning for me once I learned that the "field" the main character keeps seeing when he's close to death is the Elysium Fields. It was also nice that his wife and son were waiting for him. I suppose it appealed to my LDS Christian view of families being together forever in a type of paradise.

Oooo! I've got to see this now! It sounds wonderful! (And I think that view is an excellent one, of picturing one's family together in the afterlife. I'm not sure I'd have it any other way!)

 

[gnostic]

Homer paints the underworld as a gloomy, weary place where even the Greek's greatest hero, Achilles, is miserable of death. This surely indicates that a heaven equivilant did not feature in Greek religion back then.

But Homer also wrote in that same book/chapter, where Heracles (Hercules) was a demi-god, his father is immortal and his mother mortal. His mortal half went to Hades, but his immortal half went to Olympus, married to Hebe, goddess of youth.

There is a bit of Orphic Mysteries here in Homer's writing, where each person have a mortal and immortal half. Have anyone heard of the Orphic cult?

It is in this Orphic creation myth, we have Zeus who was not only a father of Persephone, but he also had sexual union with to produce Dionysus. Here, Persephone's mother is Rhea, but who is also called Demeter. This Dionysus (sometimes named Zagreus) did not survived to adulthood and was lure out of his cave and murdered by the Titans. Athena saved Dionysus' heart for Zeus, who shared with the Theban princess Semele, and Dionysus was reborn - a reincarnation of the 1st Dionysus. (Actually there are 3 incarnations of Dionysus).

I have retold this story more fully at my website Timeless Myths - under Orphic Creation and a bit more of their belief in Orphic Mysteries.

Apparently, the Orphic cult believed that a person must 3 virtuous lives (they are reincarnated 3 times) before you can gain entry to the Elysian Fields. Persephone is the main judge, to decide if your soul can enter Elysium.

As to Elysian Fields or Elysium, being either Roman or Greek word, I am not certain because I am no expert in language. In the Odyssey, Homer wrote that when Telemachus, son of Odysseus, met Menelaus and Helen at Sparta, the sea-god Proteus foretold that they would lived in Elysian plain in Rieu' translation, or Elysian Fields in Fagles' translation. Hesiod mentioned in Works and Days that many of the heroes from the time of Oedipus to the Trojan War will reside in the Isles of the Blessed.

 

[alwayswondering]

I think the amount she ate was a deciding factor in Zeus' ruling of how long she would have to stay in the underworld out of each year. For example, she ate 6 or 4 seeds out of 12, so she would stay down that many months of the year.

She was there three months, which is why we have three months of winter.

 

[Circle_One]

Ok, here we go, I've got a lot to write here.

On Persephone:

Persephone was innocently picking flowers one day in the field of Enna with some nymphs when Hades, allured by her smile, laughter and light surrounding her, burst out from the ground and abducted her.

He brought her to Tartarus (the Underworld), where he raped her, repeatedly, but eventually convinced her to fall in love with him.

Demeter, angered with the nymphs for doing nothing to stop Hades from stealing her daughter, promptly turned them into the Sirens. Forlorn at having lost her daughter, falls into a depression, and it is her despair that causes nothing to grow and the land to lie fallow, sending the Earth and it's inhabitants into near starvation.

Finally, Helios (the sun) eventually tells Demeter where she can find her daughter, but by the time Demeter gets to Tartarus, Persephone had already fallen madly in love with Hades.

Torn between the mother who bore her and the man she loves, Persephone makes the decision to eat six (not three, Alwayswondering, accounting for both fall and winter, at least, according to all I've read, though sometimes it is four) pomegranate seeds, which would force her to return to Tartarus, and her love, for half the year, and spend the other half on Earth with her mother.

On Elysium/Elysian (they ARE the same thing) fields:

The Elysian Fields (also called Elysium, as Feathers noted) are basically to Tartarus what Heaven is to Hell.

It's a paradise where heroes and the virtuous go when they die. Their life is lived as if they were alive, except of course, without all those they lived on Earth with. They do not even know they have died (unless someone were to tell them), and essentially continue living their lives.

Eventually, those who have gone onto the Elysian Fields forget all about those they loved on Earth, so they are able to go on with their life in the Elysian Fields in perfect happiness without the sorrow or grief of missing their loved ones.

Once their loved ones come to the Elysian Fields, however, all memories of them are returned and they can no longer remember not remembering them.

Passage between Tartarus and the Elysian Fields is forbidden and essentially cannot be done, except by Hades and Persephone themselves.

Ok.. I'm done I think..

 

[gnostic]

I usually associate "heaven" as being the home of the gods (ie Olympus), separate from the abode of the dead, and elysium is abode of the dead (not for the gods), like Hades, Erebus and Tartarus. But with Christian doctrines, heaven is both the home of God, angels and abode to those who had died.

Can Elysium really be defined as "heaven"?

 

[nutshell]

I usually associate "heaven" as being the home of the gods (ie Olympus), separate from the abode of the dead, and elysium is abode of the dead (not for the gods), like Hades, Erebus and Tartarus. But with Christian doctrines, heaven is both the home of God, angels and abode to those who had died.

Can Elysium really be defined as "heaven"?

I think it can be called heaven because it seems this is the best place mortals can go to. To my knowledge, they aren't able to go to Olympus.

 

[gnostic]

To my knowledge, they aren't able to go to Olympus.

Only a few had reached Olympus. Heracles and Dionysus, Castor and Polydeuces (Pollux) are the only ones I can think of at the moment. There are certainly more. Though, I probably should discount Dionysus since he was already a god when he was born, but lived on earth, until he was ready to leave it.

In the Roman myth, Romulus went to Olympus too, and his name was changed to Quirinus, and possibly Aeneas (the Roman version at least). Psyche, but she didn't die to reach Olympus.

(Sorry, I can't think straight at the moment; I'm still feeling dizzy because I got the flu.)