Philosophical Materialism

[Storm]

In philosophy, the theory of materialism holds that the only thing that exists is matter; that all things are composed of material and all phenomena (including consciousness) are the result of material interactions. In other words, matter is the only substance. As a theory, materialism is a form of physicalism and belongs to the class of monist ontology. As such, it is different from ontological theories based on dualism or pluralism. For singular explanations of the phenomenal reality, materialism would be in contrast to idealism, neutral monism and spiritualism.
source: Wiki

As most of you know, I am definitely not a materialist. Further, while it may have provided some scientific benefit in the past, I believe it's a school of thought that has outlived its usefulness.

To kick off the debate, how do materialists explain the placebo effect? If consciousness is simply an emergent property of matter, how can it influence matter?

 

[Tathagata]

To kick off the debate, how do materialists explain the placebo effect? If consciousness is simply an emergent property of matter, how can it influence matter?

You're basically asking how matter can influence matter. If you accept the law of cause and effect, then this shouldn't be difficult to accept. (To be clear, I'm a panpsychist as opposed to dualism or monistic physicalism/materialism.)


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[Storm]

You're basically asking how matter can influence matter. If you accept the law of cause and effect, then this shouldn't be difficult to accept.

Elaborate, please. Even the staunchest materialist I know wouldn't argue that expectation is a substance.

(To be clear, I'm a panpsychist as opposed to dualism or monistic physicalism/materialism.)

Care to explain that for those unfamiliar?

 

[Tathagata]

Elaborate, please. Even the staunchest materialist I know wouldn't argue that expectation is a substance.

To a materialist, even consciousness is material so when you say "If consciousness is simply an emergent property of matter, how can it influence matter," then you're basically asking how matter influences matter.

Though, to answer your question, yes, "expectation" is something that physically manifests. There are brain waves that correspond to our thinking which is why neurologists can do brain scans.

Care to explain that for those unfamiliar?

Well, there's three positions that would could take regarding the makeup of existence.

The dualists say mind/matter.
The physicalists say just matter.
The panpsychist says just mind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panpsychism


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[Storm]

To a materialist, even consciousness is material so when you say "If consciousness is simply an emergent property of matter, how can it influence matter," then you're basically asking how matter influences matter.

Though, to answer your question, yes, "expectation" is something that physically manifests. There are brain waves that correspond to our thinking which is why neurologists can do brain scans.

OK, that makes sense. But how do those brain waves translate to a cure for cancer?

Well, there's three positions that would could take regarding the makeup of existence.

The dualists say mind/matter.
The physicalists say just matter.
The panpsychist says just mind.

Panpsychism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There must be more than three, as I don't fit any of those descriptions!

Setting that aside, here's an interesting quote from the Wiki: "Panpsychism claims that everything is sentient and that there are either many separate minds, or one single mind that unites everything that is."

Which side of that do you fall on?

 

[Tathagata]

OK, that makes sense. But how do those brain waves translate to a cure for cancer?

Not sure what you mean here.

There must be more than three, as I don't fit any of those descriptions!

Which describes you then?

Setting that aside, here's an interesting quote from the Wiki: "Panpsychism claims that everything is sentient and that there are either many separate minds, or one single mind that unites everything that is."

Which side of that do you fall on?

I don't particularly agree with the way Wikipedia worded that, nor do I agree with all of its descriptions of panpsychism.

I think this statement is accurate though: "This is not to say that panpsychism believes that all matter is alive or even conscious but rather that the constituent parts of matter are composed of some form of mind and are sentient." - Wikipedia



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[Wannabe Yogi]

In philosophy, the theory of materialism holds that the only thing that exists is matter; that all things are composed of material and all phenomena (including consciousness) are the result of material interactions. In other words, matter is the only substance. As a theory, materialism is a form of physicalism and belongs to the class of monist ontology. As such, it is different from ontological theories based on dualism or pluralism. For singular explanations of the phenomenal reality, materialism would be in contrast to idealism, neutral monism and spiritualism.
source: Wiki

As most of you know, I am definitely not a materialist. Further, while it may have provided some scientific benefit in the past, I believe it's a school of thought that has outlived its usefulness.

To kick off the debate, how do materialists explain the placebo effect? If consciousness is simply an emergent property of matter, how can it influence matter?

Any form of Monism takes a leap of faith; Material, Indefinite, Idealism, and the non-dualist philosophy of Advaita Vedanta, all take a leap of faith unless you have a direct perception of reality. So materialism is just ontological theorizing like any other view of reality.

 

[Storm]

Not sure what you mean here.

Well, the placebo effect can cure concer, yes? If there isn't some sort of consciousness independent of and able to influence matter, how does that work?

Which describes you then?

I believe there are three primal elements of reality: matter, consciousness, and life force. Our reality is the infinitely complex interaction of the elements.

I don't particularly agree with the way Wikipedia worded that, nor do I agree with all of its descriptions of panpsychism.

I think this statement is accurate though: "This is not to say that panpsychism believes that all matter is alive or even conscious but rather that the constituent parts of matter are composed of some form of mind and are sentient." - Wikipedia

OK. What does it mean to you, in your own words?

 

[dust1n]

To kick off the debate, how do materialists explain the placebo effect?

Probably something like this:

Placebo effect and the brain

Functional imaging upon placebo analgesia shows that it links to the activation, and increased functional correlation between this activation, in the anterior cingulate, prefrontal, orbitofrontal and insular cortices, nucleus accumbens, amygdala, the brainstem periaqueductal gray matter,[64][65][66] and the spinal cord.[67][68][69][70]
These changes can act upon the brain’s early stages of information processing: research using evoked brain potentials upon painful laser pulses, for example, finds placebo effects upon the N2–P2, a biphasic negative–positive complex response, the N2 peak of which is at about 230 ms, and the P2 one at about 380 ms.[30] They occur not only during placebo analgesia but after receiving the analgesic placebo (the areas are different here, and involve the medial prefrontal cortex, posterior parietal cortex and inferior parietal lobule).[71]
Different areas in the higher brain have different functions. The prefrontal involvement could be related to recalling the placebo and maintaining its cognitive presence in a "self-reinforcing feedback loop" (during pain an individual recalls having taken the placebo and reduced pain reinforces its status as an analgesic).[72] The rostral anterior cingulate cortex (rACC) and its subcortical connectivity could be related to the expectation of potential pain stimuli[73][74]

The higher brain works by regulating subcortical processes. High placebo responses link with enhanced dopamine and mu-opioid activity in the circuitry for reward responses and motivated behavior of the nucleus accumbens, and conversely, anti-analgesic nocebos responses were associated with deactivation in this part of the brain of dopamine and opioid release.[65] (It has been known that placebo analgesia depends upon the release in the brain of endogenous opioids since 1978.[75]) Such analgesic placebos activation changes processing lower down in the brain by enhancing the descending inhibition through the periaqueductal gray[65] on spinal nociceptive reflexes, while the expectations of anti-analgesic nocebos acts in the opposite way to block this.[67]
The brain is also involved in less studied ways upon nonanalgesic placebo effects:

• Parkinson's disease: placebo relief is associated with the release of dopamine in the brain.[76]
• Depression: Placebos reducing depression affect many of the same areas that are activated by antidepressants with the addition of the prefrontal cortex[77][78]
• Caffeine: placebo caffeinated coffee causes an increase in bilateral dopamine release in the thalamus.[79]
• Glucose: the expectation of an intravenous injection of glucose increases the release of dopamine in the basal ganglia of men (but not women).[80]
• Methylphenidate: the expectation of intravenous injection of this drug in inexperienced drug users increased the release of dopamine in the ventral cingulate gyrus and nucleus accumbens, with this effect being largest in those with no prior experience of the drug.[81]

Present functional imaging upon placebo analgesia has been summarized as showing that the placebo response is "mediated by "top-down" processes dependent on frontal cortical areas that generate and maintain cognitive expectancies. Dopaminergic reward pathways may underlie these expectancies".[82] "Diseases lacking major 'top-down' or cortically based regulation may be less prone to placebo-related improvement".[83]


Placebo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If consciousness is simply an emergent property of matter, how can it influence matter?

Consciousness is a matter of certain materials working together. Consciousness does not emerge from matter, it is and always has been matter.

 

[Storm]

Probably something like this:

Placebo effect and the brain

Functional imaging upon placebo analgesia shows that it links to the activation, and increased functional correlation between this activation, in the anterior cingulate, prefrontal, orbitofrontal and insular cortices, nucleus accumbens, amygdala, the brainstem periaqueductal gray matter,[64][65][66] and the spinal cord.[67][68][69][70]
These changes can act upon the brain’s early stages of information processing: research using evoked brain potentials upon painful laser pulses, for example, finds placebo effects upon the N2–P2, a biphasic negative–positive complex response, the N2 peak of which is at about 230 ms, and the P2 one at about 380 ms.[30] They occur not only during placebo analgesia but after receiving the analgesic placebo (the areas are different here, and involve the medial prefrontal cortex, posterior parietal cortex and inferior parietal lobule).[71]
Different areas in the higher brain have different functions. The prefrontal involvement could be related to recalling the placebo and maintaining its cognitive presence in a "self-reinforcing feedback loop" (during pain an individual recalls having taken the placebo and reduced pain reinforces its status as an analgesic).[72] The rostral anterior cingulate cortex (rACC) and its subcortical connectivity could be related to the expectation of potential pain stimuli[73][74]
The higher brain works by regulating subcortical processes. High placebo responses link with enhanced dopamine and mu-opioid activity in the circuitry for reward responses and motivated behavior of the nucleus accumbens, and conversely, anti-analgesic nocebos responses were associated with deactivation in this part of the brain of dopamine and opioid release.[65] (It has been known that placebo analgesia depends upon the release in the brain of endogenous opioids since 1978.[75]) Such analgesic placebos activation changes processing lower down in the brain by enhancing the descending inhibition through the periaqueductal gray[65] on spinal nociceptive reflexes, while the expectations of anti-analgesic nocebos acts in the opposite way to block this.[67]
The brain is also involved in less studied ways upon nonanalgesic placebo effects:

• Parkinson's disease: placebo relief is associated with the release of dopamine in the brain.[76]
• Depression: Placebos reducing depression affect many of the same areas that are activated by antidepressants with the addition of the prefrontal cortex[77][78]
• Caffeine: placebo caffeinated coffee causes an increase in bilateral dopamine release in the thalamus.[79]
• Glucose: the expectation of an intravenous injection of glucose increases the release of dopamine in the basal ganglia of men (but not women).[80]
• Methylphenidate: the expectation of intravenous injection of this drug in inexperienced drug users increased the release of dopamine in the ventral cingulate gyrus and nucleus accumbens, with this effect being largest in those with no prior experience of the drug.[81]

Present functional imaging upon placebo analgesia has been summarized as showing that the placebo response is "mediated by "top-down" processes dependent on frontal cortical areas that generate and maintain cognitive expectancies. Dopaminergic reward pathways may underlie these expectancies".[82] "Diseases lacking major 'top-down' or cortically based regulation may be less prone to placebo-related improvement".[83]


Placebo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"I'm gonna need that in Captain Dummy talk."

Consciousness is a matter of certain materials working together. Consciousness does not emerge from matter, it is and always has been matter.

See, that's even weirder to me. How is a concept, like justice, material?

 

[dust1n]

"I'm gonna need that in Captain Dummy talk."

Aye, it is much more complicated for this dummy to understand, but the passage assures us that the placebo effect can be viewed, recreated and tested.

See, that's even weirder to me. How is a concept, like justice, material?

A concept like justice or injustice describes only the circumstances with which only material exists. Say a black man is falsely accused and arrested. Injustice in actuality is describing nothing more than physical brain processes in reaction to physical circumstances.

 

[Storm]

Aye, it is much more complicated for this dummy to understand, but the passage assures us that the placebo effect can be viewed, recreated and tested.

IOW, you don't understand it, either, but just go with it?

A concept like justice or injustice describes only the circumstances with which only material exists. Say a black man is falsely accused and arrested. Injustice in actuality is describing nothing more than physical brain processes in reaction to physical circumstances.

You're grasping....

 

[PolyHedral]

See, that's even weirder to me. How is a concept, like justice, material?

It isn't. But that doesn't mean the brain requires a non-material component of some sort.

For instance, imagine you've got a row of lights, lit up like this. (1 = on, 0 = off)
10010001100101110110011011001101111.
The lights on their own exist, but don't mean anything. However, if you know that the lights represent ASCII characters, they say "HELLO". If you think they represent a single number, then the lights mean 310,939,249,775. Neither "HELLO" nor 310 billion actually exist, though. They are just different ways of interpreting the lights. Justice is just a way of interpreting actions.

 

[Penumbra]

How are you defining materialism for the purpose of the thread? The Wikipedia article itself acknowledges that it's kind of an awkward definition.

If materialism is modernized to include all physical phenomena like matter, energy (interchangeable with matter), spacetime, and fields, and whatever the most fundamental quantum shenanigans are, then I'm basically a materialist by default. Wikipedia says this would be called physicalism, but also says that physicalism and materialism are sometimes used interchangeably.

Semantics aside, I am a materialist because I don't believe in things that haven't been shown to exist. So yes, I acknowledge that consciousness is a result of these basic building blocks.

See, that's even weirder to me. How is a concept, like justice, material?

How can clumps of silicon and other materials run Windows 7? By being organized properly. Justice is a useful (or sometimes hurtful) evolutionary piece of software, basically. Our brain, consisting of neurons rather than transistors, is basically a computer.

OK, that makes sense. But how do those brain waves translate to a cure for cancer?

How does software perform tasks? Software consists of nothing more than 1s and 0s, and these numbers themselves are just different transistor states, and yet it can organize these tools together to calculate things that people cannot calculate.

Information is a tricky thing to describe, as it kind of blurs the line between existent and non-existent. It's not real in the sense that matter is real, so it's not bound by conservation laws and that sort of thing. But it's real in the sense that matter and other fundamental physical aspects can be more useful by being organized properly.

 

[Tathagata]

See, that's even weirder to me. How is a concept, like justice, material?

Concepts exist in the mind as thoughts. Thoughts come in the physical form of brain waves and electrical signals in the brain.


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[Storm]

How are you defining materialism for the purpose of the thread? The Wikipedia article itself acknowledges that it's kind of an awkward definition.

In my own words, it's the philosophy that only matter exists.

If materialism is modernized to include all physical phenomena like matter, energy (interchangeable with matter), spacetime, and fields, and whatever the most fundamental quantum shenanigans are, then I'm basically a materialist by default. Wikipedia says this would be called physicalism, but also says that physicalism and materialism are sometimes used interchangeably.

We can switch to "physicalism" if you prefer.

Semantics aside, I am a materialist because I don't believe in things that haven't been shown to exist. So yes, I acknowledge that consciousness is a result of these basic building blocks.

OK.

How can clumps of silicon and other materials run Windows 7? By being organized properly. Justice is a useful (or sometimes hurtful) evolutionary piece of software, basically. Our brain, consisting of neurons rather than transistors, is basically a computer.

So, what's a meme?

How does software perform tasks? Software consists of nothing more than 1s and 0s, and these numbers themselves are just different transistor states, and yet it can organize these tools together to calculate things that people cannot calculate.

Information is a tricky thing to describe, as it kind of blurs the line between existent and non-existent. It's not real in the sense that matter is real, so it's not bound by conservation laws and that sort of thing. But it's real in the sense that matter and other fundamental physical aspects can be more useful by being organized properly.

OK, I'm with you so far. So, how does that explain the placebo effect? How does the software change the hardware?

 

[Tathagata]

Well, the placebo effect can cure concer, yes?

Uh, no. Since when?

If there isn't some sort of consciousness independent of and able to influence matter, how does that work?

Something does not have to be independent in order to influence something. Everything in the universe is contingent and dependent, yet all things in the Universe influence something else.

That's the nature of cause and effect. In fact, the law of causation could only work if things are dependent.

I believe there are three primal elements of reality: matter, consciousness, and life force.

What differentiates "consciousness" from "life force," and for what reason is there this distinction?

OK. What does it mean to you, in your own words?

No need to redefine it. I think this definition accurately describes my view of it: "the constituent parts of matter are composed of some form of mind."

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[Storm]

Uh, no. Since when?

Allow me to be more precise: it can cause it to go into remission as long as the illusion of treatment is maintained.

Something does not have to be independent in order to influence something. Everything in the universe is contingent and dependent, yet all things in the Universe influence something else.

That's the nature of cause and effect. In fact, the law of causation could only work if things are dependent.

OK.

What differentiates "consciousness" from "life force," and for what reason is there this distinction?

Consciousness is mere awareness, whereas "life force" is energy. Do you believe in chi?

No need to redefine it. I think this definition accurately describes my view of it: "the constituent parts of matter are composed of some form of mind."

OK. So how does mind give rise to matter?

 

[Tathagata]

Consciousness is mere awareness, whereas "life force" is energy.

Energy is just the vibration of matter and consciousness is actually energy. Consciousness = brain waves = energy.

So, really, you don't have 3 separate substances in your paradigm, they are all the same thing.

Do you believe in chi?

I honestly don't know much about it, though I saw a video of a Taoist master use chi energy to make the temperature of his hands exceedingly hot and proceeded to incinerate a newspaper.

OK. So how does mind give rise to matter?

In Panpsychism, there is no matter. Everything is mind/consciousness.

(I guess the definition I gave you wasn't too clear. It shouldn't say that matter is composed of mind, but rather, everything that we perceive to be matter is actually mind.)

 

[Penumbra]

In my own words, it's the philosophy that only matter exists.

We can switch to "physicalism" if you prefer.

Well, I have no intention of leading your thread in a direction you didn't intend, so I just wanted to make sure I understood your intended definition.

Even if a definition is provided, it may not provide the whole picture. I've seen people, for instance, assert that only matter exists, but what they really meant was that only the basic physical things exist because they were not all that familiar with physics. Materialism itself is a very old philosophy, and the concepts of matter being interchangeable with energy (convertible from one to the other), spacetime being a dynamic component to the system, and all sorts of quantum fields and such are only 100 years old or so.

So sometimes it can be hard to know what people mean. Many early materialists defined the two things that existed as matter and void. If materalism, in light of recent scientific understanding replaces "matter" with "matter/energy" and "void" with "spacetime and fields", then I think their original intent remains intact. I think that's why the terms can be used interchangeably sometimes. I wager that finding current people that believe that literally only matter exists is a pretty big hurdle.

So, what's a meme?

Information shared between intelligent social animals.

OK, I'm with you so far. So, how does that explain the placebo effect? How does the software change the hardware?

Well, I'm not a biologist or psychologist, so I can't go into all the tiny details. But the placebo effect seems basically to be the mind affecting the body, much like it always does.

The brain/body system is enormously complex. The brain can coordinate the release of various hormones and chemicals that have dramatic effects on the body including the brain itself. Certain chemicals make us happier, more energetic, have a stronger immune system, faster healing, and so forth. The placebo effect is basically the brain putting itself in the optimal position for healing by having the body do as much of the work it can. When the opposite is the case, and people have various mental hang-ups about living, healing, and so forth, the brain body system is not operating at is optimal level.

Depending on the order that it's in, software can affect hardware. I mean, a few weeks ago at work, one of our machines damaged part of itself by causing a short circuit. It was set up so that it can change the flow of electricity, and includes some states that can potentially short circuit itself, but it's not programmed to go to those states. But a bug caused it to, and damage occurred. The software was just the hardware controlling aspects of itself, and it led to damage.

The brain is interesting in that it has a huge control loop unlike most of our computers. The brain can affect itself. There's no reason why our computers can't do the same if they are designed that way, but the complexity and technology requirements are high. For instance, many things are made by machines (computers), including computers themselves. so hardware can and does lead to software that then makes more hardware.