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Please Explain how Joseph Smith could have possibly authored the Book of Mormon.

Sententia

Well-Known Member
Well, if the material was available to Joseph Smith, I would just like to know the specifics. That's all I'm asking for. I am unaware of any scholars of Joseph's day who knew that the names you think he pulled from a book he bought at a tag sale were ancient semitic names. This is your opportunity to educate me.

Im posting an alternate possible theory that has a grounding here in the natural world. I am not here to give you facts on Joe... In truth I dont know a whole lot about Joe or mormons.

However in this theory.. this guy wasnt even a scholar. He was a kook. He inherited some money and a place to live and became fascinated with reading and writing and wanted to go down in history. Unfortunately a flood destroyed his entire library and he never had any real friends... just some acquantances at the local grocer who called him Merl. The only book that survived was one on ancient semitic names and joe purchased it at a tag sale. He read it intently but ultimately became bored halfway through and fell asleep reading it under an oak tree. While he slumbered it began to rain and he ran into the house to escape the rain forgetting his book but glad to be dry. The book was of course destroyed and Merl fell into obscurity with the only proof of his existance laying hidden in the book of mormons among common names but he was never credited with his contribution.

Poor Merl.
 
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Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Im posting an alternate possible theory that has a grounding here in the natural world. I am not here to give you facts on Joe... In truth I dont know a whole lot about Joe or mormons.

However in this theory.. this guy wasnt even a scholar. He was a kook. He inherited some money and a place to live and became fascinated with reading and writing and wanted to go down in history. Unfortunately a flood destroyed his entire library and he never had any real friends... just some acquantances at the local grocer who called him Merl. The only book that survived was one on ancient semitic names and joe purchased it at a tag sale. He read it intently but ultimately became bored halfway through and fell asleep reading it under an oak tree. While he slumbered it began to rain and he ran into the house to escape the rain forgetting his book but glad to be dry. The book was of course destroyed and Merl fell into obscurity with the only proof of his existance laying hidden in the book of mormons among common names but he was never credited with his contribution.

Poor Merl.
Thanks.
 

DeepShadow

White Crow
I find them both equally plausible, because there is the same lack of evidence for both. The proper names I'm referring to come from the Elephantine Papyri, which were excavated long after the Book of Mormon was published. If I understand you correctly, "Merl" found these papyri or other like them, copied down the names, and then erased all records of himself and the names so that the JEA would record the names as being discovered later. Then he took his journal of names, brought it over to America, and left it where Joseph would find it, again without leaving a trace. Is this what you are saying?
 

Sententia

Well-Known Member
I find them both equally plausible, because there is the same lack of evidence for both. The proper names I'm referring to come from the Elephantine Papyri, which were excavated long after the Book of Mormon was published. If I understand you correctly, "Merl" found these papyri or other like them, copied down the names, and then erased all records of himself and the names so that the JEA would record the names as being discovered later. Then he took his journal of names, brought it over to America, and left it where Joseph would find it, again without leaving a trace. Is this what you are saying?

Nothing as insidious or planned like that. It was all quite accidental. Merl never intended to erase anything, he wanted to be known to all future generations. Poor Merl.

Of the excavation of the Elephantine Papyri though... When do you think this was done and by whom? To my knowledge they emerged first in the black market. As early as 1893 that we know about. Where were they before that? Its also important to note that there is not just one set of these... these are scattered everywhere. They were sold here and there and for good money. Merl managed to get his hands on some. The person he bought it from, Harold Namor, claims he was one of the 7 who found the entrance in one of the pyrmids and instead of taking gold and statues he took the documents and the lord would bless him for that. It wasn't for 2 decades until Merl discovered the truth. Harold was never in Egypt but in a sailing village when he noted two laden wagons roll into town. The two fellas that emerged looked quite out of place and one was examining a shiny gold object in his left hand. Harod and his brother Ronnie immediately volunteered to take them back to england, but once out to see killed them both and dumped the bodies. Harold and Ronnie were able to get rid of most of the easy stuff although Ronnie ran afoul of the law and probably died in prison. No one has any idea what happened to him.

Harold though found his way to Merl and though there was not much left that is where Merl acquired his knowledge.

Anyways... back to the 50 common names and the elephant papyri... Where do you get this from? Nibley and if we only use metathesis you will see even though they dont match at all they do... They just sounded that way... as runes... on gold plates.... sounded... symbols... sounded.... (If you say that like I just did... like peter from family guy... its a lot funnier...)

There is generally no support for the historicity of the Book of Mormon, or acceptance that the characters referred to as "reformed Egyptian" relate in any way to Egyptian Hieroglyphic, Hieratic and Demotic writing, amongst non-LDS mainstream scholars.


I have enjoyed doing some research but its time for hamburgers and hot dogs and later some fireworks. Interesting I did not know that mormon is supposed to be formed from the Egyptian Mor and Mon and means "Love Firmly Established". Interesting.
 

DeepShadow

White Crow
Wow, that's hilarious: you cite Wikipedia as "research," and then you are forced to misquote it to make your point: metathesis is the reason they don't all match EXACTLY, according to the very wiki article you cited. There are still plenty of very close matches, such as "Sam" and "Sam," or "Pa-her-on" and "Pahoran." That's not mentioning the mimnation patterns, or the Kurtz data for King Benjamin's speech. For the Kurtz data, you can see it on the 1 on 1 debate with Halcyon, or I'll repost it after my own Fourth festivities.

I find it fascinating that a supposed believer in logic and realism is now making the BoM equivalent of teapot-asteroid arguments. Maybe there really is a teapot out there in space, and we just can't see it?
 
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DeepShadow

White Crow
Merl managed to get his hands on some. The person he bought it from, Harold Namor, claims he was one of the 7 who found the entrance in one of the pyrmids and instead of taking gold and statues he took the documents and the lord would bless him for that. It wasn't for 2 decades until Merl discovered the truth. Harold was never in Egypt but in a sailing village when he noted two laden wagons roll into town. The two fellas that emerged looked quite out of place and one was examining a shiny gold object in his left hand. Harod and his brother Ronnie immediately volunteered to take them back to england, but once out to see killed them both and dumped the bodies. Harold and Ronnie were able to get rid of most of the easy stuff although Ronnie ran afoul of the law and probably died in prison. No one has any idea what happened to him.

Do you you have any evidence for Joseph Smith acquiring names from the Elephantine Papyri?
 

Sententia

Well-Known Member
I find them both equally plausible, because there is the same lack of evidence for both. The proper names I'm referring to come from the Elephantine Papyri, which were excavated long after the Book of Mormon was published. If I understand you correctly, "Merl" found these papyri or other like them, copied down the names, and then erased all records of himself and the names so that the JEA would record the names as being discovered later. Then he took his journal of names, brought it over to America, and left it where Joseph would find it, again without leaving a trace. Is this what you are saying?

Why are they both equally plausible? I'm just making stuff up... You seriously can't believe Merl to be real? I'm intermingling wikipedia, family guy and just imagination to debunk your theories. I think I have established serveral times I know very little about Joe and the Bom nor even of linguistics.

But you make all these claims... claims that could be explained rather easily with natural and realistic answers but instead of even trying to research that you use a biased basis to find evidence to confirm a theory you already have in mind. IE gold plates, angels and gods.

So elaborate on your 50 common names theory... And Dr Kurtz's book. I still don't see how that is going to prove the BOM as a supernatural text inspired by the supernatural. (I dont think the bible was either... it was written by men, inspired by stories OF god. Some people put a BY where I have put the OF.)
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Absolutely! I mean, what are the chances that a 19th century farm boy could hit all 20 points of a Hebrew farewell speech? The content is quite relevant to the issue at hand, which is not just whether, but HOW Joseph could have written it.
First off, just so we're clear, what are the "20 points of a Hebrew farewell speech"?

Second, I just got an idea for an interesting exercise:

Herman Melville and Joseph Smith lived at the same time in the same area (New York/New England in the 19th Century - Melville was a bit younger, but not by much). Melville did have a bit more formal education than Smith, but his schooling ended in preparatory school. IMO, except for whatever raw talent the two men had, they would have had approximately the same potential to write great literature.

So... here's what we can do: those of you believe that the Book of Mormon shows evidence of divine input, please list the characteristics of the Book of Mormon that should have been beyond a 19th-Century Upstate New Yorker with only moderate education: "megachiasmus", the points of a Hebrew farewell speech, etc... whatever you want, as long as these things actually occur in the Book of Mormon. Then, we'll look at Moby Dick and see how many of these characteristics can be found in it.

Obviously, we'll have to make allowances for subject matter: we won't be finding any explicit references (correct, incorrect, intentional, coincidental or otherwise) to ancient Jewish history in Moby Dick, for example. We'll mainly have to look at structure and literary features... things like the "20 points of a Hebrew farewell speech" that DeepShadow referred to.

For bonus points, we can also consider whether there are any other characteristics of Moby Dick that, while they may not be present in the Book of Mormon, meet a similar standard for impossibility as the listed items.

This may warrant its own thread, but I think the results should be illuminating.
 

DeepShadow

White Crow
Why are they both equally plausible? I'm just making stuff up...

Because there's no evidence for either one. None of the evidence that I've offered requires an angel or other supernatural elements. Hence, I'm not trying to prove the angel or the miraculous elements.

But you make all these claims... claims that could be explained rather easily with natural and realistic answers

if by "realistic" you mean fabricating a series of astronomical coincidences

but instead of even trying to research that you use a biased basis to find evidence to confirm a theory you already have in mind. IE gold plates, angels and gods.

For the last time, I'm not trying to prove angels or gods or anything supernatural here. This is getting tiresome.

If you accuse me of trying to prove a supernatural origin for the BoM one more time, I'll put you on my ignore list.

So elaborate on your 50 common names theory... And Dr Kurtz's book. I still don't see how that is going to prove the BOM as a supernatural text inspired by the supernatural.

It won't, but I guess you really don't understand that. Maybe it's time to let someone else explain that to you.
 

spiritually inclined

Active Member
It won't, but I guess you really don't understand that. Maybe it's time to let someone else explain that to you.

Suppose the Book of Mormon really was written by someone other than Joseph Smith. What would that make it mean to us? Non-Mormons who don't believe in angels and gods invading time and space to deliver a special history and message to human beings on golden plates that are then magically translated?

James
 

Sententia

Well-Known Member
Because there's no evidence for either one. None of the evidence that I've offered requires an angel or other supernatural elements. Hence, I'm not trying to prove the angel or the miraculous elements.

Exactly what are you trying to prove? I cant believe equal weight is given to your theory and to mine of just making stuff up. I mean ok... Sure. So theres a 50/50 chance either you or I are correct and my theory is seriously just fantasy I made up... some guy named merl.. (Dunno even how I got that name... maybe all the D2 I have been playing)

if by "realistic" you mean fabricating a series of astronomical coincidences

Some guy wrote a book based on some material found in a tomb raid? Thats an astronmical coincidence?

For the last time, I'm not trying to prove angels or gods or anything supernatural here. This is getting tiresome.

Ummm same post... Again... what are you trying to prove?


If you accuse me of trying to prove a supernatural origin for the BoM one more time, I'll put you on my ignore list.

Hmmmm.... *ponders*.... Yep. Threat. But... it would be one way to win the argument... hehe. Seriously WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO PROVE? I have agreed with you serveral times but you are still in conflict with me. What's up? What am I missing here?

It won't, but I guess you really don't understand that. Maybe it's time to let someone else explain that to you.

Again... That there is no way that Joe... at that time... could have authored the BoM? He was either too dumb, or didn't have the research or couldnt have possibly known about stuff that happened before he was born... Impossible... Is that the argument?

Because It is possible... I wont give any percentages etc... but you have to agree that it is quite possible he was smart enough, crafty enough and could have had the information. I don't care if you believe it or not... but you have to admit... well you dont have to... you can do whatever you want... but IT IS Possible. IMHO. (And many others)
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Ahem... DeepShadow? Anyone?

First off, just so we're clear, what are the "20 points of a Hebrew farewell speech"?

Also, DeepShadow, I did a quick Google search for "Hebrew farewell speech" and found a total of two results on the entire Google-indexed internet, both on this site and both in posts by you. What exactly is your source for the term and its definition?
 

DeepShadow

White Crow
From my debate with Halcyon:

So let's look at a far more robust example of Semetic literature in the BoM: a study of King Benjamin's farewell address in the light of a study by William Kurtz. Kurtz, a non-Mormon scholar, identified twenty points that were present in most Hebrew farewell speeches.
  1. The summons. The speaker calls people together to here his last instructions.
  2. The speaker's own mission or example. The speaker reviews his life and what he has done, and urges his listeners to follow his example.
  3. Innocence and discharge of duty.
  4. Impending death. The speaker states that death is near, but shows courage rather than fear, sometimes commending his soul to God.
  5. Exhortation. Listeners are urged to follow commandments they have been given by the speaker, to be courageous, etc.
  6. Warnings and injunctions. Consequences of sin are discussed to help the people.
  7. Blessings. In conjunction with the warnings, blessings are also offered (e.g., for obedience).
  8. Farewell gestures. Though more common in Greco-Roman literature, acts such as kneeling can be farewell gestures.
  9. Tasks for successors. Final orders given to the listeners, often conferring specific responsibilities.
  10. Theological review of history. Reviewing the past to show the works of God (e.g., the Creation, delivery from captivity, etc.).
  11. Revelation of the future.
  12. Promises. Biblical farewell speeches commonly include reference to eternal glory (e.g., Christ in Luke 22 and Mattathias in 1 Maccabees 2).
  13. Appointment or reference to a successor.
  14. Bewailing the loss. Friends and followers may mourn the speaker.
  15. Future degeneration. Warnings about the disobedience of future generations are made. The speaker is not responsible for this, however.
  16. Covenant renewal and sacrifices.
  17. Providing for those who will survive. Instructions are given to maintain guidance and comfort for people after the death of the aging leader.
  18. Consolation to the inner circle. The speaker comforts his closest associates.
  19. Didactic speech. Review of principles to teach listeners what to do.
  20. Ars moriendi or the approach to death. Dealing with the approach of the leader to death itself, this element is less common and is found only in a writing of Plato and perhaps implicitly in Josephus.
The full text of the speech is at King Benjamin's Farewell Address, 124 B.C.. How does it measure up? Note that Kurtz never found one that had all twenty, and the order isn't always exact in the New Testament and other documents he reviewed.
 

DeepShadow

White Crow
From the page cited:
For details, see William S. Kurz, "Luke 22:14-38 and Greco-Roman Biblical Farewell Traditions," Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 104: 251-268 (1985); also see William S. Kurz, Farewell Addresses in the New Testament (Collegeville, Minnesota: Liturgical Press, 1990), both as cited by Welch and Ricks, p. 115).
 

Sententia

Well-Known Member
Deepshadow... I guess I really just wondering...

What?

Seriously is there an and to this I am missing... There were verbs and nouns too...

You have 20 abstract ideas from one speech that also appears in the BoM... Really I would have to ask why just one? Why this speech?

Is there a follow up? What does this prove again?
 

DeepShadow

White Crow
This proves nothing. It's data. Data doesn't prove anything.

However, any explanation for how the BoM came to be must deal with this data, by either accounting for it or refuting it.
 

DeepShadow

White Crow
Deepshadow... I guess I really just wondering...

What?

Seriously is there an and to this I am missing... There were verbs and nouns too...

...huh? What are you saying?

You have 20 abstract ideas from one speech that also appears in the BoM... Really I would have to ask why just one? Why this speech?

Several speeches from the Book of Mormon fit this pattern, but this was the best example. Better, in fact, than all the examples provided by Kurtz himself. It may meet all twenty, when the best Kurtz could find was mid-teens.
 
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