Poland: Abortion ruling and mass protests

[Rival]

Unfortunately, this doesn't extand to individual women apparently, then the nation can decide for them about one of if not the most concequencial decision of their lives. Of course, the richer ones will simply move to a country of the EU where they can have abortions. That's the advantage of free movement between EU members for higher class women. You can have a law for the poor and one for the rich when it comes to reproductive rights. It also leave the poor, the mentally handicap, the teenagers to walk into a prison of poverty, abuse and neglect where they belong.

No, I don't think women have the right to engage in what I see as murder.

 

[Mindmaster]

If people weren't foolish, & pregnancies still occurred, would abortion then be OK?

It's never OK to kill or prevent a life. Anyone that thinks so to me needs a head check. Sex comes with risks and you should be willing to assume them if you decide to be engaged in it. Birth control isn't 100%, nor is any other contraceptive. Abortions aren't even 100% (yeah, look it up)... If you can't pay the fee don't ride the ride.

But, regardless I don't say that from a religious sense -- I don't have a religion... I just think certain actions are extreme and irrevocable and unusually cruel or disgusting and people should try to have nothing to do with them. Abortions are like nightmare fuel -- do one and you get to lament about it for your entire life or be constantly reminded of your stupidity. To me the act is sort of getting away from one's center with some ego-based 'illogical logic' and is ultimately harmful to one's psyche and just giving yourself a reason to hate yourself for the rest of your life.

Sure, someone is gonna say to me they don't care about it and they can do it and they're fine. Yeah, I refuse to believe this and times will change and so will that opinion. You'll believe that it's fine so long as you are able to deceive yourself about it... After that, not so much.

 

[David1967]

Is this a glimpse of America's future given the recent Supreme Court appointment?

Hopefully.

 

[Mindmaster]

Please learn about what is actually the case in Poland at the moment.
You seem extremely malinformed and just jumping on the "pro-life" wagon through some kind of herd mentality without even knowing the specifics.

Well, I'm obviously not on the 'pro-life' wagon if I recommend contraceptives, lol.

But, there is no world that isn't completely whack as **** that would accept abortion is anything but a ghastly and grotesque activity. It's just a symptom of the collective mental disease the permeates the world that it's even considered something acceptable at all.

 

[epronovost]

No, I don't think women have the right to engage in what I see as murder.

But the State has the right to engage in child abuse, forced labor and torture of someone not convicted of a felony by a fair and impartial court?

It also cannot protect people from being placed in reckless endangerment by their mother?

 

[Rival]

But the State has the right to engage in child abuse, forced labor and torture of someone not convicted of a felony by a fair and impartial court?

It also cannot protect people from being placed in reckless endangerment by their mother?

What on earth are you talking about?

 

[Revoltingest]

It's never OK to kill or prevent a life. Anyone that thinks so to me needs a head check.

You're welcome to check mine.
I see complexities about one life infringing upon another,
the state of development of that life, etc.

Sex comes with risks and you should be willing to assume them if you decide to be engaged in it. Birth control isn't 100%, nor is any other contraceptive. Abortions aren't even 100% (yeah, look it up)... If you can't pay the fee don't ride the ride.

I don't see bad judgement or bad luck as a basis to deny
bodily autonomy (eg, abortion right) to anyone.

But, regardless I don't say that from a religious sense -- I don't have a religion... I just think certain actions are extreme and irrevocable and unusually cruel or disgusting and people should try to have nothing to do with them.

No religion here either. I don't believe in moral absolutes.
Just personal values & preferences.

Abortions are like nightmare fuel -- do one and you get to lament about it for your entire life or be constantly reminded of your stupidity.

That's not the result for all who get abortions.

To me the act is sort of getting away from one's center with some ego-based 'illogical logic' and is ultimately harmful to one's psyche and just giving yourself a reason to hate yourself for the rest of your life.

What does the underlined text mean?

Sure, someone is gonna say to me they don't care about it and they can do it and they're fine. Yeah, I refuse to believe this and times will change and so will that opinion. You'll believe that it's fine so long as you are able to deceive yourself about it... After that, not so much.

Self deception strikes me as presumptuous.
I'd let the individual make their own choice, & live with it.

 

[David1967]

I'd argue for a reformation of the EU as a whole and get rid of the EU court; I think no nation should be subject to it. I think it works best as a trading bloc and yes, I agree it can help foster peace; I just disagree with this much outside interference.

Good point. It should work as a "trading block", but not to strip the sovereignty from member nations.

 

[Mindmaster]

This is ALL about a conservative, religious view of the world. The leader of their ruling right-wing party said the following in 2016;

“We will strive to ensure that even cases of very difficult pregnancies, when the child is certain to die, very deformed, still end up in a birth, so that the child can be baptized, buried, have a name.”

He's now made that happen. Doesn't sound like a step forward to me.

I'm not in touch with Poland's religious views or whatever, nor do I claim to be. I think abortion on the basis of defect is a pretty tough sell too. (Where do we stop the criteria? Mentally handicapped? People under 80 IQ? Hmm... seems arbitrary in the first place.) Murder is murder to me, and whether people like depersonalizing it with all the wedge words or not matters little to me.

I'm not completely pro-life in the least -- I mean I support contraception, abortion in the case where the mother would perish, and abortion where criminal acts which lead to pregnancy.

 

[epronovost]

What on earth are you talking about?

Forcing someone through the pain of cildbirth and pregnancy against their will is torture as it's extremely painful and unpleasant. I would see this as a cruel and unusual punishment impose by the State for having done something perfectly legal.

If fetus are human person, they should have the same rights as all human person. Pregnancy end in 25% of cases in miscarriage. Every one of them would be considered manslaughter or even second degree homicide in some cases. Pregnancy having the high chance of miscarriage (25% of the cases), it would be considered child endangerment to place a child in a position so risky that it has a chance out of four to die willingly. Thus, being pregnant is recklessly endangering a child.

 

[Rival]

Forcing someone through the pain of cildbirth and pregnancy against their will is torture as it's extremely painful and unpleasant. I would see this as a cruel and unusual punishment impose by the State for having done something perfectly legal.

If fetus are human person, they should have the same rights as all human person. Pregnancy end in 25% of cases in miscarriage. Every one of them would be considered manslaughter or even second degree homicide in some cases. Pregnancy having the high chance of miscarriage (25% of the cases), it would be considered child endangerment to place a child in a position so risky that it has a chance out of four to die willingly. Thus, being pregnant is recklessly endangering a child.

So you're arguing against anyone having any kids ever.

Right.

 

[epronovost]

So you're arguing against anyone having any kids ever.

Right.

No, I don't consider things without consciousness as being human person. Nor do I consider killing something without any consciousness immoral since it doesn't break the "no harm axiom". If I were to legislate using your values an definitions, I would indeed forbid or punish every single pregnant women. I would have no other choice. Rights and status aren't a convenience buffet. You can't say fetuses are children and not treat them like children. You can't say they have the right to life and safety and not protect them from reckless endangerment.

That's why trying to legislate morality is generally a terrible idea. There are all sorts of unforseen consequences to it.

 

[Mindmaster]

I don't see bad judgement or bad luck as a basis to deny
bodily autonomy (eg, abortion right) to anyone.

You bring up a point here, but I disagree with what autonomy means.

I don't think you have autonomy when you checked in a new lodger, lol.

I also fail to see where abortion makes for a 'choice' as if everything in your life is better because you're without a child. That's a hard argument to prove, and certainly I am not aware of any instance where if a woman isn't motivated enough the child is any sort of delay to the success of their profession or other activities. In fact, it's quite the other way around with several of the most successful women actually having many. It's actually quite a bit rarer for a woman to be at the top of her vocation without children.

I don't sympathize with the religious arguments at all, but there are philosophical, intellectual, and even intrinsic reasons not to proceed with these sorts of actions if they can be avoided. I think they're unhealthy psychologically to engage in. I don't know if the government is to be the one to shut that door and close it down either -- I'm against that, but it depends on the scope and scale of the problem. At the end of the day abortion ends a life and you better have a damn good reason that's slightly more thought out than, "I was being irresponsible."

 

[Rival]

No, I don't consider things without consciousness as being human person. If I were to legislate using your values an definitions, I would indeed forbid or punish every single pregnant women. I would have no other choice. Rights and status aren't a convenience buffet. You can't say fetuses are children and not treat them like children. You can't say they have the right to life and safety and not protect them from reckless endangerment.

Accidental death and murder are not quite the same though, really

 

[Revoltingest]

@Mindmaster....
This quote feature is FUBAR.
Back to business.....

I don't see bad judgement or bad luck as a basis to deny
bodily autonomy (eg, abortion right) to anyone.

You bring up a point here, but I disagree with what autonomy means.
I don't think you have autonomy when you checked in a new lodger, lol.

As I see it....
The fetus is a potential human, but not one yet.
It's part of the mother, so her autonomy rules.

But there is a big wrinkle here....
If the mother does something to harm a fetus
that is carried to term, becoming a live baby,
she is responsible for damage done, eg,
a baby born addicted to & damaged by
drug abuse.

I also fail to see where abortion makes for a 'choice' as if everything in your life is better because you're without a child.

Tis a choice I leave up to the one most affected, ie, the mother.

That's a hard argument to prove, and certainly I am not aware of any instance where if a woman isn't motivated enough the child is any sort of delay to the success of their profession or other activities. In fact, it's quite the other way around with several of the most successful women actually having many. It's actually quite a bit rarer for a woman to be at the top of her vocation without children.

Such choices & ambitions are up to the individual.

I don't sympathize with the religious arguments at all, but there are philosophical, intellectual, and even intrinsic reasons not to proceed with these sorts of actions if they can be avoided. I think they're unhealthy psychologically to engage in. I don't know if the government is to be the one to shut that door and close it down either -- I'm against that, but it depends on the scope and scale of the problem. At the end of the day abortion ends a life and you better have a damn good reason that's slightly more thought out than, "I was being irresponsible."

Whether the fetus is a "life" or not is a judgement call.
Yours differs from mine.

 

[epronovost]

Accidental death and murder are not quite the same though, really

Accidentaly killing someone is still a crime though it's called manslaughter. Note that if someone die because of your recklessness, you are guilty of murder (second degree murder). If you have a child and suffer miscarriage you knew you were placing that child in horrible and grave danger by carrying it. You are thus guilty of murder because of your recklessness. If you didn't even knew you were pregnant or were raped, you are only guilty of manslaughter. That's the cost of saying fetuses are children. You can't give them the right to life and safety, but only when you find it convenient.

 

[Left Coast]

Accidental death and murder are not quite the same though, really

And abortion and murder are not quite the same though, really.

Glad we clarified.

 

[Mindmaster]

Whether the fetus is a "life" or not is a judgement call.
Yours differs from mine.

I consider one cell alive rather consistently, so let's not limit to the concept of a fetus. This is biological reality -- everything else is someone else's religion. (Whether they religion is popular scientific dogma or someone's scriptural beliefs and views... )

If you smashed a fertilized chicken egg did you kill a chicken?

I guess if you go with the 'fetus is a parasite' argument it starts making more sense, except parasite implies something we don't desire there because it's causing trouble. It's not a tapeworm, it's a potential baby. I personally can't get my mind around that line of thinking, but whatever helps anyone sleep at night.

 

[Rival]

Accidentaly killing someone is still a crime though it's called manslaughter. Note that if someone die because of your recklessness, you are guilty of murder (second degree murder). If you have a child and suffer miscarriage you knew you were placing that child in horrible and grave danger by carrying it. You are thus guilty of murder because of your recklessness. If you didn't even knew you were pregnant or were raped, you are only guilty of manslaughter. That's the cost of saying fetuses are children. You can't give them the right to life and safety, but only when you find it convenient.

This argument still makes no sense.

It's like saying we shouldn't let any cars drive over bridges because there's a chance the bridge might collapse, however remote.

That's not nearly the same as someone deliberately collapsing the bridge with cars on it.

Not all instances of accidentally killing someone is manslaughter, so that's a false equivalence.

 

[Revoltingest]

I consider one cell alive rather consistently, so let's not limit to the concept of a fetus. This is biological reality -- everything else is someone else's religion. (Whether they religion is popular scientific dogma or someone's scriptural beliefs and views... )

There are many perspectives on reality. One is that a single
cel (which could possibly later become a human) does not
rise to the level of a person with all the attendant rights.

What I expect in society & the law is some compromise
between all the major perspectives. It could be generally
allowing abortions before 6 months, but not after.
It's not about right & wrong....just agreed upon arbitrary limits.

If you smashed a fertilized chicken egg did you kill a chicken?

No (IMO).
But I did diminish an omelette.

I guess if you go with the 'fetus is a parasite' argument it starts making more sense, except parasite implies something we don't desire there because it's causing trouble. It's not a tapeworm, it's a potential baby. I personally can't get my mind around that line of thinking, but whatever helps anyone sleep at night.

"Parasite" strikes me as a facetious analogy.
But then again.....some people's grown children......
(A couple of my siblings are parasites.)