Political Affiliation Changing in US

[Shadow Wolf]

I find that your statements have a lot of words but nothing to back it up

That's not my responsibility as I didn't make claim. The burden of proof lies on the article making claims against the Dems, but all it does is condemn them of doing things, but it says nothing specific. We can't go back and check the author's sources.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Groovy.

Bet he wrote it in bell bottoms.

 

[anna.]

VAERS confirmed over 6000 additional COVID-19 vaccine death reports

The data at VAERS is user-added, and subject to manipulation. This isn't aimed at you because I don't even know if you're anti-vaxx or not, but at the use of VAERS to support anything anymore, even if you could at one time.

As 2021 shambles to a close, the misuse of VAERS by antivaxxers continues apace

I’ve discussed why the idea that VAERS is the be-all and end-all of vaccine safety monitoring is wrong on a number of occasions, but I always like to preface such remarks by simply noting something about discussions of VAERS by antivaxxers. Notice how antivaxxers always cite VAERS and only rarely, if ever, cite other, much better and more reliable, vaccine safety monitoring databases, such as the Vaccine Safety Datalink (VSD), the Clinical Immunization Safety Assessment (CISA) project, or FDA’s Post-licensure Rapid Immunization Safety Monitoring System (PRISM) Antivaxxers also seem to like to represent VAERS simultaneously as the best system to find adverse events (AEs) from vaccines, even while also claiming it’s awful due to underreporting (as above), which means (to them) that all the horrible things in VAERS are really a lot more common than “they” want you to think.

VAERS is, of course, what is known as a passive reporting system in that it relies on doctors, nurses, healthcare workers, and, yes, people receiving vaccines (or their families) to report AEs after vaccines. As a system, it was never intended to provide an accurate estimate of the frequency of AEs related to vaccines, but rather to serve as an early warning system, a “canary in the coal mine”, if you will, for possible new vaccine-related AEs. In other words, VAERS is a hypothesis-generating, not a hypothesis testing, system, and its hypotheses are tested using better systems, like VSD, CISA, and PRISM. In contrast to VAERS, these systems are active reporting systems in that electronic health records are actively monitored for AEs after vaccination in order to identify potential signals; there is a lot less bias that way and a lot less potential for misreporting.

But back to VAERS. The main problem with using VAERS to estimate the frequency of AEs after vaccination is that, in essence, anyone with access to the Internet, mail, or the telephone can report anything to VAERS, as was demonstrated by bloggers years and years ago when one autism advocate filed a report claiming that the flu vaccine had turned him into The Incredible Hulk and another claimed a vaccine had turned his daughter into Wonder Woman. Both reports were accepted. In fairness, ultimately someone from VAERS did contact these people to ask about the reports, and the reports were removed. However, had they refused, reports that vaccines might turn one into the Hulk or Wonder Woman might still be in the database.

In any event, this particular criticism, that anyone can enter anything into VAERS, clearly rankles antivaxxers...​

 

[Kenny]

That's not my responsibility as I didn't make claim. The burden of proof lies on the article making claims against the Dems, but all it does is condemn them of doing things, but it says nothing specific. We can't go back and check the author's sources.

But your rebuttals have to be more substantive than just your viewpoint.

"That article doesn't cite a single claim. In other words, it's total rubbish."

when it does, makes your point a viewpoint... you have to back it up.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

But your rebuttals have to be more substantive than just your viewpoint.

"That article doesn't cite a single claim. In other words, it's total rubbish."

when it does, makes your point a viewpoint... you have to back it up.

Did you even read that article? It's a bunch if emotionally charged language but nothing of substance. Like when it says Dems are bad, it doesn't give is any specific examples.

 

[Heyo]

You'd think after the last election people would realize things can change and dramatically shift a president's chances of reelection. Like how covid demolished Trump's chances.

You'd think after the last 15 elections people would realize that things don't change, no matter which of the big two they vote for. The US constituency is caught is a false dilemma and they are constantly unsatisfied with their current government. That's what you get for choosing the "lesser evil" every time.

 

[Twilight Hue]

You'd think after the last 15 elections people would realize that things don't change, no matter which of the big two they vote for. The US constituency is caught is a false dilemma and they are constantly unsatisfied with their current government. That's what you get for choosing the "lesser evil" every time.

It's why the monopoly of duopoly must end.

Problem is, it's intentionally rigged to make it almost impossible for any independent third party to enter.

 

[Kenny]

The data at VAERS is user added, and subject to manipulation. This isn't aimed at you because I don't even know if you're anti-vaxx or not, but at the use of VAERS to support anything anymore, even if you could at one time.

As 2021 shambles to a close, the misuse of VAERS by antivaxxers continues apace

I’ve discussed why the idea that VAERS is the be-all and end-all of vaccine safety monitoring is wrong on a number of occasions, but I always like to preface such remarks by simply noting something about discussions of VAERS by antivaxxers. Notice how antivaxxers always cite VAERS and only rarely, if ever, cite other, much better and more reliable, vaccine safety monitoring databases, such as the Vaccine Safety Datalink (VSD), the Clinical Immunization Safety Assessment (CISA) project, or FDA’s Post-licensure Rapid Immunization Safety Monitoring System (PRISM) Antivaxxers also seem to like to represent VAERS simultaneously as the best system to find adverse events (AEs) from vaccines, even while also claiming it’s awful due to underreporting (as above), which means (to them) that all the horrible things in VAERS are really a lot more common than “they” want you to think.

VAERS is, of course, what is known as a passive reporting system in that it relies on doctors, nurses, healthcare workers, and, yes, people receiving vaccines (or their families) to report AEs after vaccines. As a system, it was never intended to provide an accurate estimate of the frequency of AEs related to vaccines, but rather to serve as an early warning system, a “canary in the coal mine”, if you will, for possible new vaccine-related AEs. In other words, VAERS is a hypothesis-generating, not a hypothesis testing, system, and its hypotheses are tested using better systems, like VSD, CISA, and PRISM. In contrast to VAERS, these systems are active reporting systems in that electronic health records are actively monitored for AEs after vaccination in order to identify potential signals; there is a lot less bias that way and a lot less potential for misreporting.

But back to VAERS. The main problem with using VAERS to estimate the frequency of AEs after vaccination is that, in essence, anyone with access to the Internet, mail, or the telephone can report anything to VAERS, as was demonstrated by bloggers years and years ago when one autism advocate filed a report claiming that the flu vaccine had turned him into The Incredible Hulk and another claimed a vaccine had turned his daughter into Wonder Woman. Both reports were accepted. In fairness, ultimately someone from VAERS did contact these people to ask about the reports, and the reports were removed. However, had they refused, reports that vaccines might turn one into the Hulk or Wonder Woman might still be in the database.

In any event, this particular criticism, that anyone can enter anything into VAERS, clearly rankles antivaxxers...​

I'm not an anti-vaxer (and thank you for that consideration)... I am more of a "it is up to the person whether they want to or not" - freedom.

My point is simple, VAERS does rely on doctors and nurses et al but I'm not so sure we should just throw it out the window. It is where people share what went wrong after their vax - they need an outlet to let them know. As an example, that's how auto industries are kept in check for problems with cars.

I have read some of those reports. It supports my view that the process to determine what was caused by the vaccines and what is not is way behind because of the time and the people it requires to check.

We do know that Belgium just stopped using one of the vaccines. That is how far behind we are and gives the understanding that the reasons why it takes 5 to 10 YEARS to accept a vaccine is because that is how long one finds out about the aftereffects.

COVID can be deadly but we know that obesity and age, understandably, are the mitigating factors. We also know that if you are already debilitated by other diseases, COVID would be the proverbial straw that breaks the camels back. Then the question would be... was it the weak heart, bad lungs, et al or the COVID that was the cause. It would be better said that ALL are the cause TOGETHER. ( I'm not shouting) and not just relegating it to one.

 

[Revoltingest]

You'd think after the last 15 elections people would realize that things don't change, no matter which of the big two they vote for. The US constituency is caught is a false dilemma and they are constantly unsatisfied with their current government. That's what you get for choosing the "lesser evil" every time.

Things don't change primarily because most people
don't really object to some things they ostensibly hate,
eg, recurring wars, high taxes, ever increasing regulation.
Why?
Hating something like war is easy when we see bad results.
But when each opportunity for arises, the prior results are
forgotten due to passions of the moment, eg, saving people
in some ****hole country, vengeance for some attack.

Setting aside the strategy of voting for the lesser of 2 evils,
which arises in presidential elections....let's consider party
primaries....
How many people wanted no new Afghan or Iraq wars, but
voted for Joe or Hillary? How many people wanted fewer
people in prison, yet voted for Joe?

If people really want change to happen, they must want &
consider it continually, ie, at all stages of politics. Consider
new candidates. Look at records in office...not who makes
the most inspiring speeches.

 

[anna.]

I'm not an anti-vaxer (and thank you for that consideration)... I am more of a "it is up to the person whether they want to or not" - freedom.

Okay, helpful to know.

My point is simple, VAERS does rely on doctors and nurses et al but I'm not so sure we should just throw it out the window. It is where people share what went wrong after their vax - they need an outlet to let them know. As an example, that's how auto industries are kept in check for problems with cars.

I have read some of those reports. It supports my view that the process to determine what was caused by the vaccines and what is not is way behind because of the time and the people it requires to check.

I'm still coming back to the situation where people can open up VAERS in Excel and input unscientific, erroneous, correlational not causational data - and then that data is used to support numbers that aren't accurate. This is a real problem, particularly from anti-medical and anti-scientific establishment people who won't believe Dr. Fauci or established medicine but will believe VAERS. I'm just putting that out there, that VAERS contains corrupted data.

We do know that Belgium just stopped using one of the vaccines. That is how far behind we are and gives the understanding that the reasons why it takes 5 to 10 YEARS to accept a vaccine is because that is how long one finds out about the aftereffects.

That's one of the arguments against the vaccine, that it was untested, unapproved, and rushed - when in actuality they've been working on similar coronavirus for years and an mRNA vaccine for a decade. Here's some additional info:

Were the COVID-19 vaccines rushed? Here's how the vaccines were developed so fast

COVID can be deadly but we know that obesity and age, understandably, are the mitigating factors. We also know that if you are already debilitated by other diseases, COVID would be the proverbial straw that breaks the camels back. Then the question would be... was it the weak heart, bad lungs, et al or the COVID that was the cause. It would be better said that ALL are the cause TOGETHER. ( I'm not shouting) and not just relegating it to one.

Yes, there are mitigating factors, but an overweight person, even one with diabetes can live to a ripe old age. If they're healthy, but Covid kills them, Covid is the cause. I remember one daughter lamenting that her father had survived a war and successfully conquered cancer twice but Covid took her father in 3 days. The cause of death should be Covid.

A couple personal anecdotes: one of my extended family (unvaccinated) got severe Covid. He's in his 40s, good health, excellent weight, no underlying factors. He was in the hospital for 2 weeks, had a blood clot in his lung they were trying mightily to clear while he was fighting to breathe. He lost 30 pounds when he didn't have a pound to lose. He thought he wasn't going to make it, but thankfully, he did. He still has some lingering issues, six months on.

I talked with a friend of the family recently I hadn't seen in several years, she told me her son had gotten Covid in 2020, before the vaccine was available, and he'd almost died. In his 40s. Healthy, in law enforcement. He's had to retire on disability because of effects of long Covid.

I could go on, there are more people I could tell you about, but they're anecdotes. The thing is almost every family is going to have their anecdotes, the stories of people they knew who were healthy, and this thing got them. Maybe took their lives, maybe not. But the numbers are there, and if they died from Covid, they are a victim of Covid. No matter their age, or weight, or underlying medical issues, if they died within days or weeks of getting Covid, they are a victim of Covid. If Covid caused them to have a stroke or heart attack that killed them of course include that information, but they are, sadly, a Covid statistic.

 

[anna.]

Easy to see, from my view. They're still happy with their vote for Biden (because the alternative) but aren't necessarily satisfied with how things are going. The pandemic and GOP obstruction have had a lot to do with that, some things I'd like to have seen done better, but others have been stymied, as per Mitch McConnell's plan: "100% of our focus is on stopping this new administration."

Additionally, from today:

During an interview on Fox News with Bret Baier, Senate Minority Leader McConnell admitted that there are 395 Democratic bills sitting in the Senate that are not going to be passed: "It is true... They're right. We're not going to pass those."


The GOP want the American public to see Biden as ineffective, as unable to deliver on his promises, and they will continue to manufacture the reasons for the discontent they will then milk all the way to the 22 and 24 elections. It's political strategy, yes, but at the expense of the American people.

 

[Kenny]

I'm still coming back to the situation where people can open up VAERS in Excel and input unscientific, erroneous, correlational not causational data - and then that data is used to support numbers that aren't accurate. This is a real problem, particularly from anti-medical and anti-scientific establishment people who won't believe Dr. Fauci or established medicine but will believe VAERS. I'm just putting that out there, that VAERS contains corrupted data.

I agree that not all the data will be correct. At the same time, we also can assume that not everybody reported any adverse effects... please note:

Even if 30% is corrupted, the remaining 500,000 would be nothing to sneeze at. (as i view it)

That's one of the arguments against the vaccine, that it was untested, unapproved, and rushed - when in actuality they've been working on similar coronavirus for years and an mRNA vaccine for a decade. Here's some additional info:

Were the COVID-19 vaccines rushed? Here's how the vaccines were developed so fast

This was VERY good information... thank you.

Yes, there are mitigating factors, but an overweight person, even one with diabetes can live to a ripe old age. If they're healthy, but Covid kills them, Covid is the cause. I remember one daughter lamenting that her father had suvived a war and successfully conquered cancer twice but Covid took her father in 3 days. The cause of death should be Covid.

A couple personal anecdotes: one of my extended family (unvaccinated) got severe Covid. He's in his 40s, good health, excellent weight, no underlying factors. He was in the hospital for 2 weeks, had a blood clot in his lung they were trying mightily to clear while he was fighting to breathe. He lost 30 pounds when he didn't have a pound to lose. He thought he wasn't going to make it, but thankfully, he did. He still has some lingering issues, six months on.

I talked with a friend of the family recently I hadn't seen in several years, she told me her son had gotten Covid in 2020, before the vaccine was available, and he'd almost died. In his 40s. Healthy, in law enforcement. He's had to retire on disability because of effects of long Covid.

I could go on, there are more people I could tell you about, but they're anecdotes. The thing is almost every family is going to have their anecdotes, the stories of people they knew who were healthy, and this thing got them. Maybe took their lives, maybe not. But the numbers are there, and if they died from Covid, they are a victim of Covid. No matter their age, or weight, or underlying medical issues, if they died within days or weeks of getting Covid, they are a victim of Covid.

Again, I understand that there are victims of Covid. I am not minimizing the loss of life and the lives it impacted. I'm also thankful that your family got better. (I had Covid too before any vaccines were available -- it wasn't fun or easy)

We also know that 60% of those in hospitals with Covid are 100% vaccinated. nearly-60-of-hospitalized-covid-19-patients-in-israel-fully-vaccinated-study-finds.html. We also know that vaccinated people die of covid.10,857 Fully Vaccinated Americans Have Died Of COVID-19; 30,000 Hospitalized

So all I'm saying is that if someone wants to "wait and see"... I feel like they should have the right without being penalized.

What do you think?

 

[Revoltingest]

I agree that not all the data will be correct. At the same time, we also can assume that not everybody reported any adverse effects... please note:

View attachment 59216

Even if 30% is corrupted, the remaining 500,000 would be nothing to sneeze at. (as i view it)



This was VERY good information... thank you.



Again, I understand that there are victims of Covid. I am not minimizing the loss of life and the lives it impacted. I'm also thankful that your family got better. (I had Covid too before any vaccines were available -- it wasn't fun or easy)

We also know that 60% of those in hospitals with Covid are 100% vaccinated. nearly-60-of-hospitalized-covid-19-patients-in-israel-fully-vaccinated-study-finds.html. We also know that vaccinated people die of covid.10,857 Fully Vaccinated Americans Have Died Of COVID-19; 30,000 Hospitalized

So all I'm saying is that if someone wants to "wait and see"... I feel like they should have the right without being penalized.

What do you think?

It's one thing to be penalized, but it's another to
see restrictions based upon vaccination status.
So an anti-vaxer won't go to jail or be fined, but
one might be unable to eat out in NYC, or fly on
some airlines.

 

[Kenny]

It's one thing to be penalized, but it's another to
see restrictions based upon vaccination status.
So an anti-vaxer won't go to jail or be fined, but
one might be unable to eat out in NYC, or fly on
some airlines.

That is true!!!! Here's hoping that other states see the light on natural immunity for having contracted Covid 19 and had the Omicron booster.

 

[Revoltingest]

That is true!!!! Here's hoping that other states see the light on natural immunity for having contracted Covid 19 and had the Omicron booster.

Natural immunity is of some but questionable value,
but anther issue is for businesses having a policy
that's easy for employees to implement.

 

[Kenny]

Natural immunity is of some but questionable value,
but anther issue is for businesses having a policy
that's easy for employees to implement.

I'm not so sure it is questionable anymore with current information:

The variant (Delta) was 27 times more likely to break through Pfizer protection from January-February and cause symptoms than it was to penetrate natural immunity from the same period

Study: COVID recovery gave Israelis longer-lasting Delta defense than vaccines

Is it possible that those who make vaccines don't want the body to do it better?

 

[anna.]

I agree that not all the data will be correct. At the same time, we also can assume that not everybody reported any adverse effects... please note:

I'm definitely not saying there are no adverse effects. Adverse effects are unfortunately to be expected. The scientific expectation though is that the benefits will far outweigh them.

Even if 30% is corrupted, the remaining 500,000 would be nothing to sneeze at. (as i view it)

Do you know what those adverse events are? A sore arm? Fever? Flu-like symptoms? Even the disclaimer at the bottom reminds you: "Note: Submitting a report to VAERS does not mean that healthcare personnel or the vaccine caused or contributed to the adverse event."

This was VERY good information... thank you.

You're welcome. : )

Again, I understand that there are victims of Covid. I am not minimizing the loss of life and the lives it impacted. I'm also thankful that your family got better. (I had Covid too before any vaccines were available -- it wasn't fun or easy)

I know that you aren't, and I'm glad you got better too. But there's an effort out there to question Covid statistics based on whether the victim had underlying factors so as to minimize the number of Covid deaths, so I just want to get my view on that out there.

We also know that 60% of those in hospitals with Covid are 100% vaccinated. nearly-60-of-hospitalized-covid-19-patients-in-israel-fully-vaccinated-study-finds.html. We also know that vaccinated people die of covid.10,857 Fully Vaccinated Americans Have Died Of COVID-19; 30,000 Hospitalized

So all I'm saying is that if someone wants to "wait and see"... I feel like they should have the right without being penalized.

What do you think?

I think the numbers in Israel aren't reflective of the numbers in the U.S. right now, because of the continuing death gap between the vaccinated and the unvaccinated.

Here'e a link to the NYT but I'm out of free articles so I linked to it via third party that isn't showing the graphs. Frustrating... :

A Growing Gap (NYT)

A Growing Gap Between the Vaccinated and Unvaccinated – Poitical Diplomacy

The likelihood of dying from Covid if you're vaccinated and boosted is far less. It isn't non-existent, but you have so much more of a fighting chance.

Here's more:

"Vast majority" of vaccinated COVID patients in hospitals didn't have booster dose

In this Ontario hospital, it's mostly the unvaccinated who are overwhelming the ICU




I'm not for mandatory vaccinations, and yet I want the people who refuse vaccinations on ideological and political grounds to own that their choices have life and death consequences for the people affected by their choice. The people who couldn't get beds for their own emergency needs because the ICU was full of unvaccinated patients. The people who were given Covid by unvaccinated people who refused to wear a mask. And so on. They own a share of that responsibility, morally. In my view.

 

[anna.]

Is it possible that those who make vaccines don't want the body to do it better?

No. That's conspiratorial thinking.

 

[Revoltingest]

I'm not so sure it is questionable anymore with current information:

The variant (Delta) was 27 times more likely to break through Pfizer protection from January-February and cause symptoms than it was to penetrate natural immunity from the same period

Study: COVID recovery gave Israelis longer-lasting Delta defense than vaccines

Is it possible that those who make vaccines don't want the body to do it better?

From the article....
The study, published online but not yet peer reviewed, is the largest of its kind. It doesn’t take booster shots — now widely given in Israel — into account, but given that most of the world is still giving a two-dose regimen, has international relevance.
But experts are stressing that the results shouldn’t be interpreted as discouragement from vaccinating. Immunologist Prof. Cyrille Cohen of Bar Ilan University, who was not involved in the study, told The Times of Israel: “Certain people who are not inclined to get vaccinated might be mistaken and think that this means you’d better get sick a priori and not get a vaccine. Such a thinking is medically wrong, and the results of the study do not mean that people should expose themselves on purpose and get sick.

“As with other disease, it is much safer to get the vaccine and prevent COVID-19, a disease that puts one at risk of hospitalization, death and long-running after-effects.”

 

[Kenny]

From the article....
The study, published online but not yet peer reviewed, is the largest of its kind. It doesn’t take booster shots — now widely given in Israel — into account, but given that most of the world is still giving a two-dose regimen, has international relevance.
But experts are stressing that the results shouldn’t be interpreted as discouragement from vaccinating. Immunologist Prof. Cyrille Cohen of Bar Ilan University, who was not involved in the study, told The Times of Israel: “Certain people who are not inclined to get vaccinated might be mistaken and think that this means you’d better get sick a priori and not get a vaccine. Such a thinking is medically wrong, and the results of the study do not mean that people should expose themselves on purpose and get sick.

“As with other disease, it is much safer to get the vaccine and prevent COVID-19, a disease that puts one at risk of hospitalization, death and long-running after-effects.”

I'm fine with that position.