• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Political theorists and philosophers

Tarheeler

Argumentative Curmudgeon
Premium Member
Does anyone here study or enjoy political theory/ philosophy?

I'm ready to jump into another round of reading, and I've been leaning towards various philosophies in my musings. I'm just curious if others here are interested, and, if so, which schools do you like and which theorists do you enjoy reading?
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I'm an strict ammateur, but would you suggest any authors? Particularly about the feudal period and 20th Century?
 

Tarheeler

Argumentative Curmudgeon
Premium Member
I'm an strict ammateur, but would you suggest any authors? Particularly about the feudal period and 20th Century?

Heh, I'm an amateur myself. I don't know of any that revolve around feudalism specifically (but there some that refer to capitalism as modern feudalism :D ), and influential theorists of the 20th century include Jean-Paul Sartre, Isaiah Berlin, and Murray Rothbard.

It really just depends on what schools you want to study.

And that's actually why I started the thread. I'm terrible for trying to look at everything at once and often have a hard time just focusing on one place. I'm interesting in what others here find valuable and want to see if we can get a nice list of a variety of theorists going.
 

Tarheeler

Argumentative Curmudgeon
Premium Member
Hmm.

We might need to bring some profession help for all these crickets.
 

Tarheeler

Argumentative Curmudgeon
Premium Member
Thanks!

Could you go to detail why you like Strauss or give some specific recommendations?
 
Last edited:

Galen.Iksnudnard

Active Member
Thanks!

Could you go to detail why you like Strauss or give some specific recommendations?

Strauss was a key figure in political thought and his ideas have influenced the direction of American politics since the 60's at least. For instance Paul Wolfowitz, who is considered by some to be the "Architect of the Iraq War" was influenced by Strauss, as was, to some degree Francis Fukuyama.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
I nominate Jurgen Habermas and his political theory, "Constitutional Patriotism". This notion holds that citizenship rests upon shared values rather than ethnicity or even a common history. The benchmark example would be, of course, the United States of America an immigrant country with citizens from nearly every conceivable ethnic background and distinct lineage however moulded into a homogenous "patriotic" polity that is less a "nation-state" than it is a people united above their differences by a supreme constitution which enshrines their common beliefs and worldview.

Another one of his ground-breaking ideas - that he has formulated in collusion with other like minded academics - takes the form of a more diluted rival to "World Federalism" in the realm of international relations. Cosmopolitan Democracy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmopolitan_democracy
 
Last edited:

dyanaprajna2011

Dharmapala
For some time, I enjoyed a general study of political philosophy. However, here recently, I've grown tired of politics completely, so I don't really study or get involved anymore. If I had to choose a political philosophy that I would consider myself, I would choose, in general, liberal; a bit more specific, socialist and green.

As far as authors go, Karl Marx is on the top of my list. Aristotle's political thoughts are interesting. I'd also say Hegel, Hume, Kant, Thoreau, Tolstoy, and Gandhi.
 

philbo

High Priest of Cynicism
Seems that Ralph Miliband's political books are starting to head up the sales charts.. you'd probably need to be in the UK now to realize why :)
 

Tarheeler

Argumentative Curmudgeon
Premium Member
As far as authors go, Karl Marx is on the top of my list. Aristotle's political thoughts are interesting. I'd also say Hegel, Hume, Kant, Thoreau, Tolstoy, and Gandhi.

I've been reading a bit of Marx lately (and let me tell you that pulling out a copy of The Communist Manifesto in my TEA Party-dominated office at lunch is certainly a conversation-starter!), and I really need to get my hands on some of Eduard Bernstein's works. I'm interested in seeing how Bernstein shifted away from Orthodox Marxism to come up with democratic socialism.
 

dyanaprajna2011

Dharmapala
I've been reading a bit of Marx lately (and let me tell you that pulling out a copy of The Communist Manifesto in my TEA Party-dominated office at lunch is certainly a conversation-starter!), and I really need to get my hands on some of Eduard Bernstein's works. I'm interested in seeing how Bernstein shifted away from Orthodox Marxism to come up with democratic socialism.

Let me know how that goes, I've been wondering that myself. It would be interesting to find out about the process that led from one to the other.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
As far as authors go, Karl Marx is on the top of my list.

Hello Dyana :)

I hope that you don't mind me asking you a rather personal question about your political persuasions but, what do you find so enthralling about Marxism?

I ask this in all sincerity. I'm neither strictly right-wing nor left-wing. I'm a bit of a political omnivore. I've switched party allegiances so many times over the years. My core values and beliefs are very solid, I simply have a difficult time finding a party that fits them.

Marx is for me good at identifying society's ills but very poor at proscribing an effective cure for them. As an example, he was absolutely correct about the injustices that liberal capitalism brought about; such as the concentration of property ownership in the hands of a minority clique of elite industrialists and the fact that unregulated capitalism results in the domination of the mass of workers (the proletariat) by the bourgeoisie.

However his conviction that the "salvific path" out of this benighted situation was the removal of property rights altogether has always struck me as not only imprudent but an unrealizable and chaotic recipe for societal breakdown.

Even worse, his reductionist and horrifyingly simplistic notion that all of human history is merely constituted of warfare between classes - is strikingly materialistic, violent and bereft of aesthetic merit to me compared with the much more psychological definition of human suffering offered by the Buddha, the founder of your faith.

The belief in the inevitability of class warfare - nay, its inherent necessity as a means of bringing about the proletarian revolution - is completely anathema to my belief in harmony between people of different social backgrounds and classes within a social system that tries to eliminate the extremes of poverty and wealth without trying to annul entirely all divisions and grades. What's more it seems to deny the basic goodness of humanity and has no room for the spiritual.

Add into the mix his preliminary stage of "dictatorship of the proletariat" (a stage no Communist country has ever seemed to be able to move beyond to fulfil the Marxian vision) after the reigns of power fall into the working classes and I've completely lost him :facepalm:

How on earth is one eventually to "do away" with the state after common ownership and civic equality is initiated? Marxism, in practice, leads only to the totalitarian state.

Marx also seems to me rather "enclosed" in his 19th century worldview. He believed that the industrial revolution signified that machines would do away with productive human labour. That has not quite come to fruition in the way he envisioned, indeed modern industrial innovation in terms of machines - mostly pioneered in capitalist countries I might add - has richly benefitted humanity, despite its darker sides.

As a Buddhist, I'm also somewhat surprised that a philosophy so open to violence and strife in achieving its ends (warfare among classes, revolution etc. ) would be compatible with your religious beliefs. When have "violent revolutions" ever been better at bringing into being more humane societies when compared with gradual processes spanning many years and conducted largely in a peaceful manner? Compare the well-known examples of Martin Luther King and Malcom X - pacifist means vs violent means.

The more moderate Socialism of the early Labour Party in great Britain, on the other hand, under its founder Keir Hardie who believed strictly in following the democratic, parliamentary route and not in abolishing property altogether - that I can sympathise with.

Marxism, I truly have never understood the allure of. Can you assist me?
 
Last edited:

Tarheeler

Argumentative Curmudgeon
Premium Member
I nominate Jurgen Habermas and his political theory, "Constitutional Patriotism". This notion holds that citizenship rests upon shared values rather than ethnicity or even a common history. The benchmark example would be, of course, the United States of America an immigrant country with citizens from nearly every conceivable ethnic background and distinct lineage however moulded into a homogenous "patriotic" polity that is less a "nation-state" than it is a people united above their differences by a supreme constitution which enshrines their common beliefs and worldview.

Another one of his ground-breaking ideas - that he has formulated in collusion with other like minded academics - takes the form of a more diluted rival to "World Federalism" in the realm of international relations. Cosmopolitan Democracy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmopolitan_democracy
Very interesting. Thanks!
 

dyanaprajna2011

Dharmapala
Vouthon said:
I hope that you don't mind me asking you a rather personal question about your political persuasions but, what do you find so enthralling about Marxism?

I ask this in all sincerity.

Not at all. :) Sometimes, people who disagree with each other can have a meaningful discussion; it does happen sometimes here. :p

I was going to answer you point by point, but I'm going to say this: My interest in Marx goes only so far as he being the founder of socialism. Today, there are better types of socialism than Marxism, which I tend to disagree with more often than not, and alot of the points you addressed are points I disagree with as well. For instance:

his reductionist and horrifyingly simplistic notion that all of human history is merely constituted of warfare between classes - is strikingly materialistic, violent and bereft of aesthetic merit to me

On the one hand, he has a point. History is full of the struggles of class warfare. However:

The belief in the inevitability of class warfare - nay, its inherent necessity as a means of bringing about the proletarian revolution - is completely anathema to my belief in harmony between people of different social backgrounds and classes within a social system that tries to eliminate the extremes of poverty and wealth without trying to annul entirely all divisions and grades. What's more it seems to deny the basic goodness of humanity and has no room for the spiritual.

Add into the mix his preliminary stage of "dictatorship of the proletariat" (a stage no Communist country has ever seemed to be able to move beyond to fulfil the Marxian vision) after the reigns of power fall into the working classes and I've completely lost him...a philosophy so open to violence and strife in achieving its ends (warfare among classes, revolution etc. )

(I added several of your comments there)
I don't understand how his answer to the problem is actually practical in any way. I agree with you. His idea that class warfare should be stopped by warfare-it makes no sense, especially from a spiritual point of view, which I also agree with you that Marxism is devoid of.

Like I said, my interest in Marx is because of the foundations of socialism lying in his ideas. As far as Marxism itself is concerned, I wholeheartedly agree with you, it's quite lacking. Democratic socialism is a much better and practical political philosophy. It takes what was best from Marx, and does away with the nonsense.
 

Tarheeler

Argumentative Curmudgeon
Premium Member
Not at all. :) Sometimes, people who disagree with each other can have a meaningful discussion; it does happen sometimes here. :p

I was going to answer you point by point, but I'm going to say this: My interest in Marx goes only so far as he being the founder of socialism. Today, there are better types of socialism than Marxism, which I tend to disagree with more often than not, and alot of the points you addressed are points I disagree with as well. For instance:



On the one hand, he has a point. History is full of the struggles of class warfare. However:



(I added several of your comments there)
I don't understand how his answer to the problem is actually practical in any way. I agree with you. His idea that class warfare should be stopped by warfare-it makes no sense, especially from a spiritual point of view, which I also agree with you that Marxism is devoid of.

Like I said, my interest in Marx is because of the foundations of socialism lying in his ideas. As far as Marxism itself is concerned, I wholeheartedly agree with you, it's quite lacking. Democratic socialism is a much better and practical political philosophy. It takes what was best from Marx, and does away with the nonsense.

I agree with a lot of this. For better or worse, Marx has been a huge influence, and quite possibly the dominate one, in modern political philosophy. His ideas laid the foundation for many new schools of thought and gave rise to some truly brilliant minds.

There is a lot about Marxism that I disagree with, but it is worth studying even if only to better understand the other schools that arose from it.
 

philbo

High Priest of Cynicism
Marx is for me good at identifying society's ills but very poor at proscribing an effective cure for them.
This (though I think you probably mean "prescribing"). Marx's analysis of the effects of capitalism were spot on the money. But what he seemed maybe a trifle over-optimistic about was the effect of this information on people, especially the workers: he seemed to think that telling people about capitalism would make them want to work together as communists for the betterment of all. But people aren't like that..

Strangely enough, I said this many times about the past Labour government (in the UK): their analysis of the problem was spot on, but what they tried to do frequently wasn't thought through properly, and the laws were abysmally drafted & didn't do what they were supposed to.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
This (though I think you probably mean "prescribing"). Marx's analysis of the effects of capitalism were spot on the money. But what he seemed maybe a trifle over-optimistic about was the effect of this information on people, especially the workers: he seemed to think that telling people about capitalism would make them want to work together as communists for the betterment of all. But people aren't like that..

Strangely enough, I said this many times about the past Labour government (in the UK): their analysis of the problem was spot on, but what they tried to do frequently wasn't thought through properly, and the laws were abysmally drafted & didn't do what they were supposed to.

Ah, yes I meant prescribing rather than proscribing (which means "to ban" something!) :cool:

And indeed, I agree with your assessment of the Labour party. It is precisely why they lost so many voters, including many members of my own family, in the last election.

The worrying aspect of this for me, as a Scot, has been the replacement of democratic, moderate Socialism in Scotland with nationalism. I truly abhor nationalism in any manifestation it happens to take. At least Marxism had an international focus, allowing workers to feel unified worldwide with other workers in different countries by the bond of class and oppression. Nationalism on the other hand, is self-enclosing and innately exclusive in my opinion.

In my country, the Labour majority in the Scottish Parliament collapsed in 2007 and the SNP came in. The Party has a "friendly" nationalist image. It is outwardly multicultural, multi-ethnic and promotes a "civic nationalism" supposedly free of xenophobia. It describes itself as combining "nationalism and socialism". Historically, that has not really worked all that well :sarcastic (Ah...NSDAP anyone?)

But then, I heard Salmond call for "sanctions on Israel" and his party deputies in Falkirk crying for the banning of "Israeli books", along with a plan to impose state guardians on the Scottish people (thereby intruding into family life and upbringing, a violation of the ECHR which gives all EU citizens a right to privacy and integrity in family life).

In other words, my worst fears about "nationalism" were coming to the fore. The penny was truly dropping.

I had begged my relatives not too vote SNP in 2007 but my pleas fell on deaf ears.

I hold Tony Blair responsible for the rise of Nationalism in Scotland :D A strong Labour government could have prevented this disaster and therefore even have averted the Independence Referendum.
 

philbo

High Priest of Cynicism
And indeed, I agree with your assessment of the Labour party. It is precisely why they lost so many voters, including many members of my own family, in the last election.
Oddly enough (and I'm not sure whether this says something particularly odd about me, or about our electoral system), the last election is the only time I have voted Labour at a general election: not that it was ever going to make any difference where I live, but the candidate was a research scientist who had spoken out against his own party in things like Prof. Nutt's dismissal - I may not agree with his party, but I thought the candidate was excellent.

The worrying aspect of this for me, as a Scot, has been the replacement of democratic, moderate Socialism in Scotland with nationalism. I truly abhor nationalism in any manifestation it happens to take. At least Marxism had an international focus, allowing workers to feel unified worldwide with other workers in different countries by the bond of class and oppression. Nationalism on the other hand, is self-enclosing and innately exclusive in my opinion.

In my country, the Labour majority in the Scottish Parliament collapsed in 2007 and the SNP came in. The Party has a "friendly" nationalist image. It is outwardly multicultural, multi-ethnic and promotes a "civic nationalism" supposedly free of xenophobia. It describes itself as combining "nationalism and socialism". Historically, that has not really worked all that well :sarcastic (Ah...NSDAP anyone?)

But then, I heard Salmond call for "sanctions on Israel" and his party deputies in Falkirk crying for the banning of "Israeli books", along with a plan to impose state guardians on the Scottish people (thereby intruding into family life and upbringing, a violation of the ECHR which gives all EU citizens a right to privacy and integrity in family life).

In other words, my worst fears about "nationalism" were coming to the fore. The penny was truly dropping.

I had begged my relatives not too vote SNP in 2007 but my pleas fell on deaf ears.

I hold Tony Blair responsible for the rise of Nationalism in Scotland :D A strong Labour government could have prevented this disaster and therefore even have averted the Independence Referendum.
I'm not looking forward to that debate: there's too many (strongly-)emotional views backed by hopeful/baleful analyses of any split, precious little actual debate going on, and it'll likely get worse before the referendum.

Salmond is a very credible face, but I'm not convinced he'll be able to keep it up until next year.. I agree with your aversion to Nationalism.
 
Top