Poll for people who sometimes argue or protest against some God beliefs (“God” with a capital “G”)

[ChristineM]

I’m having a discussion with someone about what people are doing when they argue and protest against God beliefs. I’m thinking that maybe sometimes they’re trying to convince people that God does not exist, but mostly that is not what they’re trying to do.

(edited to add the following)

Bonus question, to answer in comments, if you say sometimes that there is no evidence for someone to say that their God exists. Are you picturing their God in some way, thinking that it does not exist? Are you thinking that you haven’t seen any evidence for the existence of anything that you would call “God”? Explain as much as you can what’s happening in your mind, when you say that there’s no evidence for people to say that their God exists.

I will assume that you mean your god, not other monotheist gods or polytheist gods.

Working on such an assumption can i ask why you consider god singular?

On with the question.

I consider cosmology, the geo sciences, the bio sciences, civilisation and history, including pre history, before committing myself to no god can exist.

When someone makes a statement based on faith that contradicts known, evidenced reality i will question their statement and ask for evidence. Which usually does not exist or can only be seen using circular reasoning. Of course, this is usually a futile endeavour.

When someone attempts to invoke god magic, for example the creation of the universe or abiogenesis. I will try to explain that they have no evidence for their claim. Of course they then say something along the lines of "neither have you". By response tends to be on the lines of ignorance of a subject does not mean god magic.

When someone makes a statement that threatens me and mine with their belief then it's time for them to duck.

What this boils down to is that they are entitled to their beliefs, but should realise they are beliefs, and should not be sold as fact, even to their own children.

Bonus answers

Q1. No, i am feeling pity for what i consider deliberate ignorance.
Q2. Not really, i know there is no evidence at all for gods. And i know there is much subjective evidence to deny key aspects of gods. There is no need to think on it anymore than i did when i first began to realise the horrors that many religions have demanded in the name of their god.

 

[SalixIncendium]

I’m having a discussion with someone about what people are doing when they argue and protest against God beliefs. I’m thinking that maybe sometimes they’re trying to convince people that God does not exist, but mostly that is not what they’re trying to do.

(edited to add the following)

Bonus question, to answer in comments, if you say sometimes that there is no evidence for someone to say that their God exists. Are you picturing their God in some way, thinking that it does not exist? Are you thinking that you haven’t seen any evidence for the existence of anything that you would call “God”? Explain as much as you can what’s happening in your mind, when you say that there’s no evidence for people to say that their God exists.

Hard to answer unless you clearly define "God beliefs". What are "God beliefs"?

 

[Jim]

Hard to answer unless you clearly define "God beliefs". What are "God beliefs"?

Beliefs of people who say they believe in God, that look like beliefs about someone or something that they call “God.”

 

[Jim]

I will assume that you mean your god ...

No. Sorry that wasn’t clear. I’ve revised the title and the OP, to try to clarify.

 

[Jim]

I revised the title and the OP of this thread, to try to clear up some misunderstandings. Sorry for that. People can change their votes if they want to.

 

[HonestJoe]

I revised the title and the OP of this thread, to try to clear up some misunderstandings. Sorry for that. People can change their votes if they want to.

I don't think that helped. I'm still not sure what kind of behaviour you're actually referring to when you say "argue or protest against God beliefs". If you're talking about actual behaviour witnessed, examples would be useful.

It's kind of an example of part of your point (I think); How do you know the people answering your poll are actually thinking of the same behaviour you were thinking of when you wrote it?

 

[Jim]

I don't think that helped. I'm still not sure what kind of behaviour you're actually referring to when you say "argue or protest against God beliefs".

Are you wondering if you should answer the poll question or not? If you aren’t sure, you’re welcome to answer it.

 

[HonestJoe]

Are you wondering if you should answer the poll question or not? If you aren’t sure, you’re welcome to answer it.

How can I answer a question when I don't understand what it means!?!

 

[Jim]

How can I answer a question when I don't understand what it means!?!

Maybe you could vote “Other,” or not vote, and in the comments say anything that you think might possibly answer the question. That’s what I just did in another thread, where I had the same problem.

 

[Nimos]

Bonus question, to answer in comments, if you say sometimes that there is no evidence for someone to say that their God exists. Are you picturing their God in some way, thinking that it does not exist? Are you thinking that you haven’t seen any evidence for the existence of anything that you would call “God”? Explain as much as you can what’s happening in your mind, when you say that there’s no evidence for people to say that their God exists.

I think its actually a bit hard to figure out why people believe in God to begin with. Which might be because of the way I view life and what the reason is for why we do thing to begin with. As I see it we only do things due to one of three things, either it benefits us, we are helpful or we are forced to do something.

I don't think its possible to force anyone to believe in God and we are not really doing anything helpful for anyone as this is a personal matter. Which obviously leave that something must be gained from it.

Without knowing, I think what people most of all want to gain from God, is comfort, security or meaning or all of them.

There need to be a meaning with why we are here, right? With our lives? But where do you get such answers? Science don't know and is not even trying to find or pretend to know. So what other option is there, if one want answers to these questions?

So when all comes to it, you either accept that we simply don't know, in that case you will probably become an atheist or you believe that truth is to be found in the old religious texts and you make it work the best you can for you, and in that case you will become a believer in whatever God or religion seems to make the most sense to you.

At least I don't know what other reasons there might be, most religious people say they don't fear death, and I think that is correct, at least for most.

But also I think there is a cost of just throwing ones faith unto a God and religion. From what I can see and have heard it has its price as well, trying to make it all fit together. And to me, I wonder if people that believe, think it is worth it and whether or not my guess of why they need a God is true or not. As I might very well be wrong myself. Again it doesn't seem all that clear to me when you ask people why they see a need for a God.

For me personal, I decided some time ago, to simply go where the most compelling evidence is taking me, to be open to look at varies views even if I don't initially agree with them, I will give them a chance. Might be a bad choice, I don't know, but at least, I know, I did what I could to be honest with my self, and in the end that is what matters to me.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

(edited to add the following)
NOTE: My reason for posting this in a debate forum is not to debate about it myself. It’s to allow as much freedom as possible for people to say what they think.

I made a mistake in writing the poll question. Rather than “Are you saying that God does not exist?” it should be “Are you saying that some God does not exist?” The poll question is for people who sometimes argue or protest against Some beliefs of people who say they believe in “God” with a capital “G,” that look like beliefs about someone or something that they’re calling “God.”
(end edit)

(the following paragraph has been edited for clarification)

I’m having a discussion with someone about what people are doing when they argue and protest against some God beliefs. I’m thinking that maybe sometimes they’re trying to convince people that some God does not exist, but mostly that is not what they’re trying to do.

(edited to add the following)

Bonus question, to answer in comments, if you say sometimes that there is no evidence for someone to say that their God exists. Are you picturing their God in some way, thinking that it does not exist? Are you thinking that you haven’t seen any evidence for the existence of anything that you would call “God”? Explain as much as you can what’s happening in your mind, when you say that there’s no evidence for people to say that their God exists.

Depends on the conversation.

Sometimes, a theist will argue for a god with mutually contradictory attributes. Such a god can't exist, so I may argue this.

Most of the time, though, I try to keep the conversation focused on justification for belief more than on factual truth of belief.

Rather than get pulled off into the weeds with some theist parroting "absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence!" I think it's more productive to make it absolutely clear what it means to frame the debate in those terms.

Belief in God is either justified or it's not. If it's justified, the believer should be able to provide the justification. IMO, in any conversation where the believer is trying to put the burden on the non-believer to "disprove" God, the believer has basically conceded the point that there is no justification. At that point, the implication is generally that major parts of the believer's religion are wrong, and we're only talking about whether we can disprove the possibility that the believer made an uninformed, unjustified wild guess and happened to blindly end up on the right answer for no good reason.

IOW, it's like arguing that you can't be sure that a stopped clock is telling the wrong time, because it's right for a moment twice a day. It's still a concession that the clock isn't a reliable way to know the time.

At that point, the question of whether God exists or not is basically irrelevant. Any way that God demonstrably affected me or the world around me would serve as justification for God, and a God that doesn't affect me in any way may as well not exist.

Do I need to split hairs between "does not exist" and "may as well not exist?" Generally not... especially not with people who get pedantically nit-picky about their god but not about anything else.

 

[HonestJoe]

Maybe you could vote “Other,” or not vote, and in the comments say anything that you think might possibly answer the question. That’s what I just did in another thread, where I had the same problem.

I did reply in the comments, you even liked that reply. I'm not going to respond to a poll with anything when I don't understand the question though. You even said you only want responses from people who "argue or protest God belief" and I don't think I do that (or anyone else for that matter).

I don't see why you're so unwilling to clarify your question though. It's almost feeling like something of a "When did you stop beating your wife?" gotcha attempt at the moment. That may well not be the case but you're not helping by adjusting the question but not clarifying any of the confusion.

 

[Jim]

I don't see why you're so unwilling to clarify your question ...

I’m not unwilling to clarify my question.

It's almost feeling like something of a "When did you stop beating your wife?" gotcha attempt at the moment. That may well not be the case ...

It isn’t.

 

[Jim]

I'm still not sure what kind of behaviour you're actually referring to when you say "argue or protest against God beliefs". If you're talking about actual behaviour witnessed, examples would be useful.

I’ve argued against people saying that their God exists. I’ve argued and protested against people saying that it’s their God telling them to do some things they do.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The only picture I have of god is those produced by Christian and other religions, but since I don't believe there is a god, the picture is like a picture of a unicorn, or fairy or Loch Ness Monster.

I tend to use analogies like these for gods, because they call attention to the double standards that the "you can't prove a negative (if you're talking about God)" crowd tend to employ.

@Jim -

I like to bring up examples like unicorns and the Loch Ness Monster when talking to theists about whether God exists, because they give rise to a lot of the same issues.

Talking about God in isolation doesn't give proper context, because the reasons why I might not say that I'm absolutely sure that God doesn't exist are also generally the reasons why I'm not absolutely sure that unicorns, the Loch Ness Monster, leprechauns, etc. don't exist. Maybe they're all really good at hiding, or maybe I'm actually a brain in a vat that's being shown a simulated reality and "real reality" is actually full of leprechauns riding unicorns and gods riding Loch Ness Monsters.

I think it's useful to reframe the question instead of "can we be sure that God does or doesn't exist?" to "is God's existence more reasonable than the existence of unicorns?"

... and I do this with the full realization that the theists I'm talking to probably haven't put as much thought into the basis for their own outright rejection of unicorns as they have into the idea that an atheist might reject God outright.

 

[rational experiences]

Human beings say I live with my extended human family on One body, a planet, and in the science of creation, theologies, say it is one body...the STONE.

And I also claim ST the saint meaning says the body of fusion of st ONE is a variable in each holy land. So the ground of ONE that I stand upon to own my owned human DNA genetics, family history is important to my owned self.

Which is the diversity of religious expression by language and also by DNA life body, how you look, your visions....what you see.

So each owned holy land sees differently....yet the information creation is exactly the same....religious basis.

Therefore the wise Leaders said accept each others scientific specific same stated information, we all were attack in the War on God...the UFO war....the science machine caused war. As the story WAR.

The origin war on Earth scientifically was God against the evil of the Sun, spirits....we did not even exist then.

Science, a male human choice to invent all statements of, referred to the war of God and then brought war of science upon his head.

When he irradiated his life he had to wrap up his body in cloth to try to keep it safe from radiation burning effects, as the history of that war.

Leaders who were the spiritual science philosophers of the past as Teachers came to an agreed realization that the religious science documents are the same, the only reason it is expressed in named variations is due to Holy land awareness of the cultural heritage of the land owners.

Why science said respect the teachings about the ONE, for they are all the same teachings.

Law, in the community however is controlled by Leadership choices only which are proven unfair.....for no human ever asked to be irradiated brain changed and express their humanity with inhumane beliefs.

Prophets, the stone.
Messengers, about the stone, changes to the stone, receipt from out of space, wandering stones.

Revering the stone, the Land ownership, the Holy Land, the stone you walk upon, DNA diversity....the S ain T. AIN in old science symbolism meant spatial 0 owned the presence of stone.

 

[Sandra Jayne]

.

While I don't believe god exists, as characterized in the Abrahamic religions he does have some odious beliefs, principally his belief that slavery is okey dokey, and that innocent lives are worthless and expendable, to say nothing of his belief that evil is worth propagating.

.

God is not saying anything humanity does to each other is 'okay' He is saying because we rejected Him this is the way it is.
Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great upon the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was altogether evil all the time. And Yahweh regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart.So God said, “I will blot out man, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—every man and beast and crawling creature and bird of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them.”…

As for slavery I suggest you research slavery in relation to the Jews, they were treated better and had more rights than many workers in the 21st century.

 

[Sandra Jayne]

I tend to use analogies like these for gods, because they call attention to the double standards that the "you can't prove a negative (if you're talking about God)" crowd tend to employ.

@Jim -

I like to bring up examples like unicorns and the Loch Ness Monster when talking to theists about whether God exists, because they give rise to a lot of the same issues.

Talking about God in isolation doesn't give proper context, because the reasons why I might not say that I'm absolutely sure that God doesn't exist are also generally the reasons why I'm not absolutely sure that unicorns, the Loch Ness Monster, leprechauns, etc. don't exist. Maybe they're all really good at hiding, or maybe I'm actually a brain in a vat that's being shown a simulated reality and "real reality" is actually full of leprechauns riding unicorns and gods riding Loch Ness Monsters.

I think it's useful to reframe the question instead of "can we be sure that God does or doesn't exist?" to "is God's existence more reasonable than the existence of unicorns?"

... and I do this with the full realization that the theists I'm talking to probably haven't put as much thought into the basis for their own outright rejection of unicorns as they have into the idea that an atheist might reject God outright.

I am unsure as to God exists, I really don't care if unicorns do or do not exist. I reflect a great deal on the question as to whether or not there is a creator and I always come back to the same questions. Are we really the result of some random chemical anomaly, the profundity of human suffering is such it begs the question..is this it?

 

[Skwim]

God is not saying anything humanity does to each other is 'okay' He is saying because we rejected Him this is the way it is.

No he's not, and, of course I didn't say he was, but he is saying that owning slaves is just fine, that innocent lives are worthless and expendable, and believes that evil is worth propagating.

Some of God's rules about owning slaves

Ephesians 6:5
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, with a sincere heart, as you would Christ,

Leviticus 25:44-46
As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly.

Exodus 21:2
When you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve six years, and in the seventh he shall go out free, for nothing.

Exodus 21:7
“When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do.

Titus 2:9
Slaves are to be submissive to their own masters in everything; they are to be well-pleasing, not argumentative,

Leviticus 19:20
“If a man lies sexually with a woman who is a slave, assigned to another man and not yet ransomed or given her freedom, a distinction shall be made. They shall not be put to death, because she was not free;​

Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great upon the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was altogether evil all the time. And Yahweh regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart.So God said, “I will blot out man, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—every man and beast and crawling creature and bird of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them.”…

So what? He still condoned owning other humans

As for slavery I suggest you research slavery in relation to the Jews, they were treated better and had more rights than many workers in the 21st century.

And how nice of god that he had favorite slaves. Meanwhile all other slaves never received such fine treatment. They got no bye after six years. They were property forever.

Exodus 21:20-21
“When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money.

Leviticus 25:44-46 ESV / 3,266 helpful votes
As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly.


Innocent lives are worthless and expendable

Talking about destroying Sodom

Genesis 18:32
The Lord said, “If I find ten good people in the city, I will not destroy it.”

Gen. 19:23-25
23 Lot was entering the town as the sun came up, 24 and the Lord began to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah. He caused fire and burning sulfur to fall from the sky. 25 He destroyed the whole valley—all the cities, the people living in the cities, and all the plants in the valley.​

Don't tell me that every infant and child in Sodom and Gomorrah was not "good."

Talking about killing first born

Exodus 11: 4-5
4 Moses said to the king, “The Lord says, ‘At midnight tonight, I will go through Egypt, 5 and every firstborn son in Egypt will die, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, the ruler of Egypt, to the firstborn son of the slave girl grinding grain. Even the firstborn animals will die.​

Think there were innocent firstborn children in Egypt who weren't killed. Think again. God said "every."


God believes that evil is worth propagating

Isaiah 45:7 King James Version (KJV)

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.


.

​

 

[Sandra Jayne]

"The Lord said, “If I find ten good people in the city, I will not destroy it.”- this was not the extent of God's mercy but Lot's, he was negotiating with God but Lot stopped at ten, we will never know if Lot went down to finding one good person God might have still agreed not to destroy the cities.

The Egyptians were warned what was going to happen but the same as today warnings are ignored and if the scriptures are to be believed most of us on Earth will die in the coming Apocalypse, children and all maybe because parents have to take responsibility and if they reject God He knows the children will do the same. Bit like Noah, the one's who ignored him died along with their children but they were given the chance to live. A child dies every three seconds globally due to starvation but we all live with this even though if the 'world' really wanted to stop it they could.
Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Lord . would I not prefer he turn from his ways and live? Ezekiel 18:23

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
The old KJV is a poor translation in my opinion and it seems it is the only bible with this translation.

I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the LORD, do all these things.’ New King James Version

I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things. English standard version

I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things. NIV

Will address slavery issue another time as I need to get some sleep.