Poll: Your thoughts on incel men

[Sunstone]

By and large it's much worse than that. They are worse than the redpill movement and I've seen redpill videos celebrating violence against women showing videos of them being knocked out and attacked over verbal disputes. Just to give you an idea of scale.

A "nice guy" is just all talk and mostly just is an ***... these guys are different breed.

Granted some are probably okay people, but by and large a lot of them get angry and start blaming people. Honestly though I think most are probably celibate due to their own anxiety and not putting themselves out there. It's not at all hard to find sex if you actually go looking for it. Quality may vary, though. Ugly people have sex, crippled people have sex, mentally handicapped... what excuse does anyone have if they are not putting themselves out there?

And no I'm not trying to "put down" those groups, my point is those are groups eople might consider "unattractive" and yet they are getting it on... surprisingly a lot. So it really is their latitude and/or lack of motivation/anxiety.

Sadly it's too easy to want something or someone to blame...



Sunstone, that is literally the name they chose to call themselves and their community. It wasn't chosen by an outsider.



I'm surprised how many people are not familiar with them, but I guess only really the more explorer types on the internet know of them and other eccentric sub cultures. The Incel sub-reddit was taken down years ago for the violent stuff posted in there and the danger it posed to the community, and reddit is pretty lax of a place.

It's actually part of a larger network of ideas, and redpill bridges it to some of the unsavory aspects of MRA's. A lot in the atheist 'skeptic' community addressed feminism and redpill ect years ago and I kept up with all the drama. This is also when I was watching what those types of communities said about "SJW's" and "anti-SJW's". It's all part of a stupid pot, people like Armored Skeptic and Sargon of Akkad have defended MRA's and Redpill to varying extents (although in his defense Armored Skeptic was critical of many redpillers and MGTOWs). Actually Sargon was the person who popularized the fictional 4chan country "kekistan" whos' flag is literally a green nazi styled flag with the 4 chan logo on it styled into a swastika. Kekistan and Pepe (Pepe used to not be this but was appropriated by the movement) became symbols of the Alt-Right arm of Trump Supporters, and Sargon repeatably defended Trump constantly as did a lot of others in that community. ShoeonHead is another example who defended Trump a lot, and she's often used to 'disprove' feminism cause' shes female.

In any case this is something that's been brewing for years on the internet. The attack in Toronto as you may know was actually a copycat. If this all sounds insane though, it is. You might recall in the past I've been very critical of people who use anti-feminist arguments by those "skeptics" who defended MRA types whenever it comes to social justice and feminism and it's because I know where the rabbit hole leads to.

And now that rabbit hole has gotten people killed.

Thank you. That was very helpful and informative.

 

[Sunstone]

I was thinking these were men who turned misogynist because they couldn't get laid. I'm beginning to suspect they start out misogynist and that has something to do with why they can't get laid. Maybe it's just the opposite of what I initially thought.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

Just a random poll idea I had. For those of you who don't know, "incel" is an abbreviation for involuntarily celibate. Men who describe themselves as incels are men who would like to be sexually active, but are not because they are rejected by every woman that they attempt to initiate a relationship with.

Perhaps I should clarify. I'm referring to involuntarily celibate men in general, not to any specific subsets of this group who form communities of wackos on the internet.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

What do you think of the misogyny associated with at least some of these men? Does that concern you?

And what should incel men do about their situation?

A subset of them are misogynistic, but probably not as large a subset as you would think, since the vocal minority seems to be the most misogynistic, while the majority are probably fully respectful of women. Bear in mind that there are plenty of men who are in relationships with women who are also misogynists.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

Misogynist losers who think women owe them sex who have a tendency to veer into terrorist mass murder.

You're stereotyping. A small subset of them are misogynist losers, but you are generalizing the evil behavior of that subset onto the whole group. To use one example that comes to mind, if I said that all Muslims have a tendency to veer into terrorist mass murder, you'd accuse me of bigotry (and rightfully so). Yet you are guilty of the same fallacy as those who hate all Muslims due to the fact that a small subset of Muslims are violent.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

You're stereotyping. A small subset of them are misogynist losers, but you are generalizing the evil behavior of that subset onto the whole group. To use one example that comes to mind, if I said that all Muslims have a tendency to veer into terrorist mass murder, you'd accuse me of bigotry (and rightfully so). Yet you are guilty of the same fallacy as those who hate all Muslims due to the fact that a small subset of Muslims are violent.

Oh, really? Provide proof that most self-described incels are actually nice people who don't hate women. You know it's not some large movement so there's not all that much variety and it really just exists online. People who have been following it for years like David from We Hunted the Mammoth somehow managed to miss all those incels who are "good guys". Find me the ones opposed to the calls for violence, rape and murder. Find me the ones opposed to the lingo of "Chads", "Stacies" and derogatory terms for female genitals like "roastie". I won't hold my breath. #NotAllIncels

 

[Father Heathen]

I can sympathize with the shy, awkward guy who struggles socially, but not when they decide to blame women for their own issues.

Attraction, chemistry, etc. is more than simply "being nice". A lot of these "incels" believe they're accumulating points by meekly showering their love interest with generosity and adoration (which is seen as "sweet" in a pitiful puppy sort of way), and that they'll have eventually "earned" something in return for it. When a guy is "too nice", I think that's just a polite way of saying the guy was too passive and milquetoast. As for the notion that girls always go for the "a'holes", it's all about confidence and assertiveness. Which a nice guy can be, just as a douche can be just as spineless as they are sleazy, which is exactly what you are if you blame and hate women for got getting sex that you think they owe you for "being nice".

That said, there are women who will lead an "incel" on to take advantage of their kindness and naivety. I knew a guy like that years ago, but he was too smitten and in denial to listen to those trying to warn him.

 

[Sunstone]

Perhaps I should clarify. I'm referring to involuntarily celibate men in general, not to any specific subsets of this group who form communities of wackos on the internet.

There seem now to be two definitions of incel at work in this thread. First, the definition you just gave, and second the definition of them as a small group of group of misogynists who self-identify as "incels". I predict some unavoidable confusion will result. I certainly hope though no one starts fighting over which definition is the one true definition or anything like that.. That would so risible given nearly every English word has multiple definitions.

 

[Sunstone]

I
...just as a douche can be just as spineless as they are sleazy, which is exactly what you are if you blame and hate women for got getting sex that you believe you were owed.

Good observation. I suspect that point is often enough overlooked.

 

[Father Heathen]

Good observation. I suspect that point is often enough overlooked.

I wonder how many "nice guy incels" would even bother interacting with a girl if they knew that the prospect of sex would never be on the table.

 

[Sunstone]

I wonder how many "nice guy incels" would even bother interacting with a girl if they knew that the prospect of sex would never be on the table.

Excellent point!

Offhand, I suspect rather few of them -- if we're talking about the nice guy who deep down believes girls owe him for being nice, which I think we are. The thing is, they are clueless to what their missing!

I believe there's a profound sense in which Anaïs Nin was spot on when she wrote, “Each friend represents a world in us, a world possibly not born until they arrive, and it is only by this meeting that a new world is born.” Female friends, just like male friends, can open up to us whole new ways of seeing and experiencing the world. They can literally enrich our lives in that way and so many other ways.

But, FH, I suspect a nice guy who can't see any real value to a woman other than sex is mostly likely unable to deeply connect with anyone. It's not what they're looking for.

 

[Father Heathen]

Reading "incel" forums is pretty creepy. It appears that for a lot of them it's mental/emotional issues that prevent them from being able to socialize normally and form healthy relationships; platonic or otherwise, but of course they place the blame on society and women, even to the point of celebrating/advocating violence against them. Unsurprisingly, a lot of them also appear to support the "men's rights movement" and the alt-right.

 

[Father Heathen]

But for the guys who are simply shy and awkward, it's just a matter of overcoming it by building up confidence and experience. If it's something you really want you have push yourself to interact with others more often, and without any silly expectations. I used to be that guy when I was a kid.

 

[Sunstone]

Reading "incel" forums is pretty creepy. It appears that for a lot of them it's mental/emotional issues that prevent them from being able to socialize normally and form healthy relationships...

That's fascinating. And quite significant. I was wondering about that, thinking it was just inexperience on their parts.

but of course they place the blame on society and women...

Of course they do. No work changing themselves, no pressure changing themselves.

...even to the point of celebrating/advocating violence against them.

And there's the rub. Advocating violence puts the jerks in a whole new category.

 

[Sunstone]

But for the guys who are simply shy and awkward, it's just a matter of overcoming it by building up confidence and experience. If it's something you really want you have push yourself to interact with others more often, and without any silly expectations. I used to be that guy when I was a kid.

As did I myself. Quite shy and exceedingly awkward early on, learned the same way you did -- by putting myself out there. It's like tennis. You can read all the books you want on it, seek all the advice you want. But you don't really start learning the game until you pick up racket and ball, starting practicing.

I have a degree of sympathy for someone who is merely shy and awkward. None for these misogynists. Misogyny is simply inexcusable.

 

[Mock Turtle]

I can sympathize with the shy, awkward guy who struggles socially, but not when they decide to blame women for their own issues.

Attraction, chemistry, etc. is more than simply "being nice". A lot of these "incels" believe they're accumulating points by meekly showering their love interest with generosity and adoration (which is seen as "sweet" in a pitiful puppy sort of way), and that they'll have eventually "earned" something in return for it. When a guy is "too nice", I think that's just a polite way of saying the guy was too passive and milquetoast. As for the notion that girls always go for the "a'holes", it's all about confidence and assertiveness. Which a nice guy can be, just as a douche can be just as spineless as they are sleazy, which is exactly what you are if you blame and hate women for got getting sex that you think they owe you for "being nice".

That said, there are women who will lead an "incel" on to take advantage of their kindness and naivety. I knew a guy like that years ago, but he was too smitten and in denial to listen to those trying to warn him.

Quite agree with all this. Speaking as one of the shy ones (and essentially loser), but reasonably nice, intelligent, and attractive (then), I even had females chasing me, but failed to take advantage. It has never made me feel entitled or hostile towards females ever, since I do have the ability to be honest with myself. For whatever reasons, many are just not that capable of forming such relationships, but if they had a serious look at themselves and/or took the advice of those who know them, or even from others who just have an impression of them, then they might resolve their issues.

For me, my issue appears to have been a personality disorder, and if I had sought help long ago then that might have been resolved to a better conclusion much earlier. When I did have any relationships with any females, I generally had no problems, seeing them as equals and to be treated with respect, even when many were sex workers. Absolutely no point in offloading responsibility onto others when the fault or issue usually lies within.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I think anyone claiming the label 'incel' is almost certainly misogynistic. But there will be plenty of involuntary celibates around who are simply shy, or clueless, or looking for the wrong sort of girl, or whatever.
so definitely worth remembering that not all 'nice guys' actually think women owe them sex.

But yep. If someone sympathises with incels, that would scream misogynist (at best) and dangerous (quite possibly).

 

[Jumi]

incel :: We Hunted The Mammoth

To think I voted I have some sympathy, but it's still their fault. Well looks like they are trying their hardest not to lose that celibate status...

 

[Srivijaya]

No sympathy for any kind of hate-mongers at all, the previously linked article nails it:
The Time For 'Incel' Explainers Was Years Ago | HuffPost

Back in 2016 the internet was awash with misogynistic hate posts. On one Buddhist forum of which I'm a member, there was a link to a philosophy called the Red Pill. It's essentially pseudo-scientific misogynistic propaganda, if you look it up.

It was quite an eye opener and came along at the same time as a wave of alt-right material. I questioned it's relevance on the forum but was surprised by the tacit justification aspects of this ideology received from some contributors.

Sitting on the internet in the 21st century having a debate about women's 'mental faculties' and 'inferior contribution to society' etc, felt more like a debate from the end of the 19th century. 2016 was a toxic year on line. Incel are some of the radicalized fallout from this great hate movement.

 

[Woberts]

There used to be a subreddit called r/ incels.
They praised Elliot Rodgers as a saint.