Pope Francis calls unfettered capitalism 'tyranny' in manifesto for papacy

[metis]

Once again, NONE of it says anything about taxation.

Yanno...the more money the government loots, the less people have to give to charity.

I would like to see please proof that the Sanhedrin or any other jewish government entity enforced this?

You are adding in quite a bit that is not there.

One last post to you.

CMike, the list I provided from Judaism 101 is indeed about taxation as it is goods that are mandated to help the needy, and charity cannot be mandated by definition, which is why I left it in with the last two items. It simply is a requirement mandated by Torah, and for you to actually deny that is simply ludicrous, and indicates that you either prefer to ignore or just explain-away Torah.

Finally, your idea that the Temple leadership and the Great Sanhedrin was not involved in enforcing Torah is just way too bizarre, as the Sanhedrin was a judicial body that was in place to enforce Jewish Law-- all of it. If something is mandated by Torah, common sense should have it that they and the Temple leadership would be the bodies that would step in to pick up the slack because they were the ones in charge. I know the history behind this, so I suggest you actually do some research for yourself, because what you said above in regards to the Laws that I posted that you say are not referring to taxation tells me that you simply do not want to deal with the reality of what's written. You simply are inventing your own "Torah", sorry to say.

As far as you last post(s), I've had enough of this as you're simply playing way too fast and loose with both Torah and current events. We simply are going to disagree because you simply are "seeing" things that you want to see: "confirmation bias".

 

[CMike]

There are 613 mitzvahs in the Torah. The Sanhedrin didn't enforce them.

That said there was some taxation mainly that there is money to help the poor who don't have food.

What you quoted are not laws enforced by the jewish court. They are commandments to make you a more righteous person.


Judaism has always been pro free market. You are still supposed to conduct yourself ethically and morally.

Judaism is therefore contrary to the Pope's socialist/marxist agenda.

Below are some of the commandments.

Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)

Business Practices

1. Not to do wrong in buying or selling (Lev. 25:14) (CCN47).
2. Not to make a loan to an Israelite on interest (Lev. 25:37) (CCN54).
3. Not to borrow on interest (Deut. 23:20) (because this would cause the lender to sin) (CCN55).
4. Not to take part in any usurious transaction between borrower and lender, neither as a surety, nor as a witness, nor as a writer of the bond for them (Ex. 22:24) (CCN53).
5. To lend to a poor person (Ex. 22:24) (even though the passage says "if you lend" it is understood as obligatory) (CCA62).
6. Not to demand from a poor man repayment of his debt, when the creditor knows that he cannot pay, nor press him (Ex. 22:24) (CCN52).
7. Not to take in pledge utensils used in preparing food (Deut. 24:6) (CCN58).
8. Not to exact a pledge from a debtor by force (Deut. 24:10) (CCN59).
9. Not to keep the pledge from its owner at the time when he needs it (Deut. 24:12) (CCN61).
10. To return a pledge to its owner (Deut. 24:13) (CCA63).
11. Not to take a pledge from a widow (Deut. 24:17) (CCN60).
12. Not to commit fraud in measuring (Lev. 19:35) (CCN83).
13. To ensure that scales and weights are correct (Lev. 19:36) (affirmative).
14. Not to possess inaccurate measures and weights (Deut. 25:13-14) (CCN84).

 

[metis]

Let's see how reality conflicts with the pseudo-conservative revising of history:

Ronald Reagan's advisors came to office with the intention of cutting both taxes and spending. But they soon found out that it was easier to achieve the first of these objectives than the second. The reason was simple: politics. It was popular to cut taxes. And taxes did come down substantially. The top marginal rate was reduced from 70 percent to 28 percent; the tax base was broadened; and many deductions and loopholes were eliminated. But it was unpopular to cut spending, and the Democratic Congress bridled at the extent of the cuts that the president proposed. Reagan did not take on middle-class entitlements. He also spared the Defense Department from the ax, and indeed initiated, over the course of his two terms, major increases in defense expenditures, including the "Star Wars" space defense program.

Some in the Reagan camp were optimistic, despite the failure to cut total government spending. They were the advocates of what traditional Republican economist Herbert Stein -- echoing the music of the day -- called "punk" supply-side economics, which made sweeping assertions that reductions in tax revenues resulting from tax cuts would be more than made Up for by higher tax revenues generated by economic growth. It did not turn out that way. Because spending did not come down with taxes -- and indeed defense spending went up sharply -- and because the tax cuts did not feed back into the economy to the extent hoped, both the federal debt and the annual deficit ballooned; and in 1981-82, the economy was in a deep recession.

In September 1982, in its first effort to repair the damage, the Reagan administration followed the "largest tax cut in history" with the "largest tax increase in history." But there was no catching up. By the end of Reagan's first term, the supply-side logic was discredited in the eyes of many, and the inability to bring taxes and spending down together stood in marked contrast to Volcker's victory over inflation. David Stockman, Reagan's first director of the Office of Management and Budget, left the administration dejected, disillusioned with supply-side economics, and chastened by the realities of the political process. Failure to achieve fiscal-policy change, he argued, was a clear vindication of the "triumph of politics" -- of entitlements over austerity, and of the enduring pork-barrel tradition of American legislation over any cold economic logic. "I joined the Reagan Revolution as a radical ideologue," he wrote. "I learned the traumatic lesson that no such revolution is possible."

The triumph of politics and what Stockman called the "fiscal error" that went with it spawned a new monster, which would come to occupy center stage in policy debate: the deficit and the federal debt. Between the beginning and the end of the Reagan presidency, the annual deficit almost tripled. So did the gross national debt -- from $995 billion to $2.9 trillion. Or, as Reagan and Bush administration official Richard Darman put it, "In the Reagan years, more federal debt was added than in the entire prior history of the United States." -- Commanding Heights : Reaganomics | on PBS

Doesn't reality sometimes just suck.

 

[metis]

CMike, sorry to be so sarcastic with you as this issue of dealing with the poor as this is something that I have been involved with at the personal level for over 40 years through my studies and my experiences on reservations, with migrant workers in the thumb area, and in the inner-cities in Kalamazoo and Detroit. I've all too often seen the hardships people have had to face, and also the all too the pathetic and inadequate response by our federal and state governments. However, that's still no excuse for my sarcasm, so please accept my apology.

Shalom & take care.

 

[CMike]

CMike, sorry to be so sarcastic with you as this issue of dealing with the poor as this is something that I have been involved with at the personal level for over 40 years through my studies and my experiences on reservations, with migrant workers in the thumb area, and in the inner-cities in Kalamazoo and Detroit. I've all too often seen the hardships people have had to face, and also the all too the pathetic and inadequate response by our federal and state governments. However, that's still no excuse for my sarcasm, so please accept my apology.

Shalom & take care.

Thank you. I am sorry too for my sarcasm.

 

[metis]

Thank you. I am sorry too for my sarcasm.

And thank you as well.

Shalom, and stay warm.

 

[CMike]

And thank you as well.

Shalom, and stay warm.

Thanks. Now we need to have some chulunt together.

 

[metis]

Thanks. Now we need to have some chulunt together.

Give me gas, and you really don't want to be around me when that happens. How about potato kugel?

 

[CMike]

Give me gas, and you really don't want to be around me when that happens. How about potato kugel?

Sounds good, but I'll have chulunt as well.

 

[Alceste]

Actually I agree with you (but you didn't really answer my question).

Sure I did. The sermon on the mount is the bit I was talking about. Turn the other cheek, go the extra mile, love your enemies, yada yada, and TADA... the meek shall inherit the earth. Keeners could stick to the gospels to get the bits about loving your neighbour and money lenders being an abomination against God, rich people not having an easy time getting through the gates of heaven, etc. but the sermon on the mount is a treatise on his whole philosophy in his own words (ostensibly). What more should a Christian need?

 

[BSM1]

Sure I did. The sermon on the mount is the bit I was talking about. Turn the other cheek, go the extra mile, love your enemies, yada yada, and TADA... the meek shall inherit the earth. Keeners could stick to the gospels to get the bits about loving your neighbour and money lenders being an abomination against God, rich people not having an easy time getting through the gates of heaven, etc. but the sermon on the mount is a treatise on his whole philosophy in his own words (ostensibly). What more should a Christian need?

I was just interested if you found a verse in the Beatitudes that commanded half of the listeners to sit on their butts while the other half go produce food to feed them. Just curious...

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I was just interested if you found a verse in the Beatitudes that commanded half of the listeners to sit on their butts while the other half go produce food to feed them. Just curious...

It does include a command to give whatever is asked of you.

 

[Alceste]

I was just interested if you found a verse in the Beatitudes that commanded half of the listeners to sit on their butts while the other half go produce food to feed them. Just curious...

I already told you - he was pretty clear that the rich (IOW people who produce no food for anyone, but merely take it from other people's mouths) would have a hard time getting into heaven.

 

[CMike]

I already told you - he was pretty clear that the rich (IOW people who produce no food for anyone, but merely take it from other people's mouths) would have a hard time getting into heaven.

Fortunately, judaism doesn't have a problem with people getting rich.

There is a lot of good that can done with money.

After all look at the plush surroundings of the vatican. That came from money.

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

I agree that the bible does these things, but can't capitalism (in a perfect world) exist without greed and materialism?

Wanting what someone else has is the basis of all trade and commerece, as well as crime and politics.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Fortunately, judaism doesn't have a problem with people getting rich.

OTOH, it does have a problem with rich people failing to uphold their moral obligations to society in general and the poor in particular.

 

[metis]

OTOH, it does have a problem with rich people failing to uphold their moral obligations to society in general and the poor in particular.

Exactly, and here's a link to show the 145 times the word "poor" shows up in the Tanakh and how they are to be treated, and that number doesn't even include other words that can be used to denote being poor: Bible, Revised Standard Version

BTW, there are 37 matches for "poor" in the Christian scriptures, and they can be found here: Bible, Revised Standard Version

 

[CMike]

OTOH, it does have a problem with rich people failing to uphold their moral obligations to society in general and the poor in particular.

Everyone is supposed to uphold their moral obligations.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Everyone is supposed to uphold their moral obligations.

... and those obligations are greater for the rich than for the poor, correct?

Here's one perspective that suggests that Jews have a duty to effectively redistribute income from the rich to the poor:

When I give 10% to 20% of my income to a worthy cause, it is not benevolence but justice. Why is it justice to give my hard earned money to someone else? Ultimately all of the money that I earn comes from God, and therefore if God instructed that a percentage of the money be given to others who deserve it, to do so is not only a moral imperative, but a legal imperative. I must recognize the needs of others and open my hand to them.

Nevertheless, Jewish sources recognize that to give of my money to those in need, recognizing that I do not have total dominion over it, is tremendously difficult. That is why the Talmud says that tzedakah -charity, is the most powerful force in the world, so great that it can even save one from death. One sage was so overcome by the power of tzedakah that he declared that its reward is equal to the reward of all of the other commandments combined.

The Jewish Philosophy of Philanthropy

In your view, is this a correct interpretation of Jewish teachings?

 

[CMike]

... and those obligations are greater for the rich than for the poor, correct?

Here's one perspective that suggests that Jews have a duty to effectively redistribute income from the rich to the poor:


The Jewish Philosophy of Philanthropy

In your view, is this a correct interpretation of Jewish teachings?

Not really. The way I see it they have more opportunity to do mitzvahs. That is a good thing.