Pope Francis calls unfettered capitalism 'tyranny' in manifesto for papacy

[metis]

Torah not only demands that the government takes care of the poor through various measures, but also personal charity as well. Jesus would have been well aware of that, I do believe, and yet I see nothing in the Christian scriptures where he apposes that system. And why would he? Instead, he appears to double-down on the charity part.

BTW, since we were not sovereign during the time Jesus lived, the Torah mandate to take care of the poor and widows was handled by the Great Sanhedrin and the Temple authority. As far as where this is found in Torah, check this out, and notice that it goes from 40-52, with the last two items dealing with charity: Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)

40.Not to afflict an orphan or a widow (Ex. 22:21).

41.Not to reap the entire field (Lev. 19:9; Lev. 23:22).

42.To leave the unreaped corner of the field or orchard for the poor (Lev. 19:9).

43.Not to gather gleanings (the ears that have fallen to the ground while reaping) (Lev. 19:9).

44.To leave the gleanings for the poor (Lev. 19:9).

45.Not to gather ol'loth (the imperfect clusters) of the vineyard (Lev. 19:10).

46.To leave ol'loth (the imperfect clusters) of the vineyard for the poor (Lev. 19:10; Deut. 24:21).

47.Not to gather the peret (grapes) that have fallen to the ground (Lev. 19:10).

48.To leave peret (the single grapes) of the vineyard for the poor (Lev. 19:10).

49.Not to return to take a forgotten sheaf (Deut. 24:19) This applies to all fruit trees (Deut. 24:20).

50.To leave the forgotten sheaves for the poor (Deut. 24:19-20).

51.Not to refrain from maintaining a poor man and giving him what he needs (Deut. 15:7).

52.To give charity according to one's means (Deut. 15:11).

 

[BSM1]

[

BTW, since we were not sovereign during the time Jesus lived, the Torah mandate to take care of the poor and widows was handled by the Great Sanhedrin and the Temple authority. As far as where this is found in Torah, check this out, and notice that it goes from 40-52, with the last two items dealing with charity: Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)


How did that work out for them?

 

[The Sum of Awe]

There are few who really understand what capitalism really is, other than this strange idea that the United States is capitalistic right now...

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Pope attacks 'tyranny' of markets in manifesto for papacy | Reuters


Today's most incisive critic of capitalism: Pope Francis - latimes.com

So... the dictator for life of a "country" that's never had a free and fair election is complaining about tyranny? Ah, irony.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It should be recalled nonetheless that the "wealth" so mentioned is not private wealth. It is rather public and ancient treasures of the Vatican City State (which is a sovereign entity under international law and a country in its own right despite its miniscule size) including priceless artwork by Da Vinci and other greats that is open to visitors and art students, archives going back a millennium that are open to scholars and university academics from around the globe and architectural wonders of the world such as St. Peters Basilica that are used for corporate worship by the faithful.

The treasures or art in the possession of the Catholic Church are not therefore the Pope's property, nor anyone else's to sell as they wish. These artefacts belong to the whole Catholic Church, not any individual.

None of this can be approximated with private wealth. Most of it was given to the church centuries ago by wealthy laity for public use, as gifts.

Every state, every institution owns buildings. It is just so happens that the Catholic Church is the oldest institution in the Western world and so has been gifted with many basilicas for worship and many pieces of art by talented Catholics.

Francis lives in a guesthouse and under a Jesuit vow of poverty. He leads an austere life. It is not his fault that his job description means he must "work" in a centuries-old basilica with beautiful artwork and utensils for public use.

Public treasures such as centuries-old artwork and altars are for the common good of the public, in this case Catholics who worship or visit cathedrals, the Vatican or else.

The Catholic Church is actually the world's largest non-governmental provider of healthcare and charity.

The Institute for the Works of Religion (the "Vatican Bank") holds nearly €5 billion in assets. The Catholic Church's equity is more than €700 million. It made €86 million in profit for the Church last year. None of THAT wealth is in the form of artwork entrusted to the Vatican, it's all just cash, or things that can be (and frequently are) bought and sold.

http://www.ior.va/Portals/0/Content...lReports/425x00sc399T!/IOR_AnnualReport_E.pdf

 

[Ablaze]

Pope attacks 'tyranny' of markets in manifesto for papacy | Reuters

Today's most incisive critic of capitalism: Pope Francis - latimes.com

I find these ideals well-expressed, but how does one actually implement them, putting philosophy into practice? There may be hope in the fact that the Pope has such a vast religious influence in Catholic circles. Definitely an inspiration.

 

[Ablaze]

There are few who really understand what capitalism really is, other than this strange idea that the United States is capitalistic right now...

Could you elaborate?

 

[metis]

[

BTW, since we were not sovereign during the time Jesus lived, the Torah mandate to take care of the poor and widows was handled by the Great Sanhedrin and the Temple authority. As far as where this is found in Torah, check this out, and notice that it goes from 40-52, with the last two items dealing with charity: Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)


How did that work out for them?

Actually quite well since the purpose was to help one another that are in need. Obviously, the Roman occupation was tough on us, especially since inflation went berserk and also the Romans taxed us profusely to pay for their projects.

Unfortunately, there are some people who seem to forget or virtually ignore what our sages and Jesus expected.

 

[metis]

Our economy is referred to as a "mixed economy", which includes aspects of both capitalism and socialism. Most economies worldwide are variations of mixed economies, and this is largely due to the fact that different conditions result in different mixtures.

As time goes on, America's economic system must drift in the socialistic direction or the percentage of people in poverty will increase, thus resulting in turmoil that could tear us apart, and even the conservative economist Alan Greenspan has said that this disparity of wealth that's getting wider and wider here is very destabilizing and is our single greatest threat.

 

[Ablaze]

Our economy is referred to as a "mixed economy", which includes aspects of both capitalism and socialism. Most economies worldwide are variations of mixed economies, and this is largely due to the fact that different conditions result in different mixtures.

As time goes on, America's economic system must drift in the socialistic direction or the percentage of people in poverty will increase, thus resulting in turmoil that could tear us apart, and even the conservative economist Alan Greenspan has said that this disparity of wealth that's getting wider and wider here is very destabilizing and is our single greatest threat.

Out of curiosity, which aspects of socialism do you think are included in the U.S. economy?

 

[metis]

Out of curiosity, which aspects of socialism do you think are included in the U.S. economy?

Social security, Medicare, Medicaid, unemployment compensation, etc.

 

[BSM1]

Actually quite well since the purpose was to help one another that are in need. Obviously, the Roman occupation was tough on us, especially since inflation went berserk and also the Romans taxed us profusely to pay for their projects.

Unfortunately, there are some people who seem to forget or virtually ignore what our sages and Jesus expected.

You're making my point for less government or authoritative interference in a person's life.

 

[metis]

You're making my point for less government or authoritative interference in a person's life.

Even if they're health and well being is at stake? Plus, I in no way made your point, and my guess is that there are things that you personally want government to do that probably someone else may consider to be "authoritative interference in a person's life".

I guess you'll have to decide, unless you already have made that decision, and that's if the health and relative well being of your fellow Americans is more or less important than this supposed "interference"? How much freedom does one have in they're mired in absolute poverty and can't get out? How much freedom does one have if they have cancer but can't get treatment? How much freedom does one have if we eliminate the police and our defense capability that's paid for through our taxes?

 

[Ablaze]

Social security, Medicare, Medicaid, unemployment compensation, etc.

And do you think these are actualized to their full potential? In particular, unemployment compensation and medicare in the U.S., in my experience, are wholly insufficient and do not even come close to accomplishing their intended purpose.

 

[Revoltingest]

You're making my point for less government or authoritative interference in a person's life.

"Evidence" is a tricky & slippery thing. Some look at government's socialistic failures & see the need for even
more socialism. I see a need for less socialism. But political reality being what it is (a continual demand for
ever more largess), let's focus on improving the economy & getting gov social programs more productive &
efficient before opening the tax flood gates to expand the nanny state.

 

[nazz]

Wow! A Pope who's actually a Christian. :yes:

It had to happen sooner or later, LOL

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Wow! A Pope who's actually a Christian. :yes:

Regardless of what he says in speeches and statements, he's still the last dictator in Europe and the head of a church that has its own bank. I'll take what he has to say about tyranny and the evils of capitalism with a grain of salt... or at least as not likely to be reflective of the institution as a whole.

 

[BSM1]

Even if they're health and well being is at stake? Plus, I in no way made your point, and my guess is that there are things that you personally want government to do that probably someone else may consider to be "authoritative interference in a person's life".

I guess you'll have to decide, unless you already have made that decision, and that's if the health and relative well being of your fellow Americans is more or less important than this supposed "interference"? How much freedom does one have in they're mired in absolute poverty and can't get out? How much freedom does one have if they have cancer but can't get treatment? How much freedom does one have if we eliminate the police and our defense capability that's paid for through our taxes?

I think you're missing the point. If I were financially able I would set up a free hospital with the best of doctors and equipment. I would have treatment queues that would rival early Ford assembly lines. I would do this anonymously with no thought of reward. I would also do this with a glad heart--unless you told me I have to do this with money I have earned. Rather you want to accept it or not, you are owed nothing in this life.

 

[nazz]

Regardless of what he says in speeches and statements, he's still the last dictator in Europe and the head of a church that has its own bank. I'll take what he has to say about tyranny and the evils of capitalism with a grain of salt... or at least as not likely to be reflective of the institution as a whole.

OK, Debbie Downer

 

[metis]

And do you think these are actualized to their full potential? In particular, unemployment compensation and medicare in the U.S., in my experience, are wholly insufficient and do not even come close to accomplishing their intended purpose.

The unfortunate reality is that we have let these become less effective because we haven't kept up with the tax rate to make them more effective. But one of the things we are dismal at is by not really doing much to help people with retraining if they're unemployed or underemployed. In the Scandinavian counties and Germany, for examples, they put much effort into retraining/re-education, and that makes sense, especially if we want to keep people off the dole.