Pope Francis calls unfettered capitalism 'tyranny' in manifesto for papacy

[Sha'irullah]

Based on my reading, the Jesus of the Gospels wanted to spread his message to the whole world but expected that most people, particularly those with comfort or power, would not accept it

I can sort of remember the verse you are speaking of, I believe it is a Pauline verse.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I can sort of remember the verse you are speaking of, I believe it is a Pauline verse.

Not the ones I'm thinking of. In the Gospels, Jesus condemns those who enjoy the trappings of power and status - I'd say he condemns the whole idea of an earthly establishment. He tells his disciples that they'll be hated... IOW, he expects them to do their preaching in an environment that's hostile to Jesus' message. He preaches ideas that work on a small scale but not society-wide, like not worrying about tomorrow; a lone beggar apostle can get by that way, but a city-state cannot.

 

[metis]

The early church was far from communist, it was about stealing power and keeping it amongst nobles.

You are equating authoritarian, dictatorial, plutocratic and theocratic with communism. All 4 and especially the 3rd are anti-Communist.

Three times in the book of Acts it states that the apostles shared their belongings in common, plus you have the statements by Jesus about giving of one's wealth to create treasures in heaven. Jesus also would have been well aware of the Torah mandate that the government needed to be involved in helping the poor and the widows, and I see nothing in the gospels to suggest that he opposed that approach.

 

[BSM1]

Good grief you did not even read what I said.

Jesus embraced Socialist/Communist ideas such as the spreading of wealth and the relinquishment of greed.

"Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

This is Communism buddy. I never said he assigned himself to a political or economic party

Couple of things:
1. Usually when you capitalize Socialism and/or Communism you are referring to the governing body, the forced application, of the philosophy;

2. I'm not sure you understand the "...eye of the needle..." reference in the verse. By any means Yeshua never said it was impossible for a rich man to enter heaven. He was condemning the mindset of the wealthy, not wealthy itself. The OT is full of wishes for personal prosperity.

 

[AmyintheBibleBelt]

It seems that the Pope is going back to the roots of the message of Jesus which is purely Socialism/Communism at the world wide level

Huh? You missed the part where Jesus said render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's.
I missed the part where Jesus advocates using government as a vehicle to advance his theology. What book was that??

 

[Sunstone]

Huh? You missed the part where Jesus said render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's.
I missed the part where Jesus advocates using government as a vehicle to advance his theology. What book was that??

Read your Old Testament. Nowhere in the Bible does Jesus say that his followers are now free to ignore the OT's many exhortations to take social responsibility for the poor and less fortunate. And as for "using the government", just who do you think the prophets were yelling at to take social responsibility? LOL! Christians! They almost never read their Bible.

 

[hexler]

Concerning capitalism: Exploitation is not something new, since mankind exists there is exploitation. It exists because we are free to transgress the laws of God, but since we have supereffective techniques it becomes dangerous. Dangerous for people and for the planet on the whole. But why do people exploit? It has to do with the level of spiritual development. Someone who exploits is on the spiritual level of a suckling. Why? Because a suckling has the right to exploit the breast of his mother - and he does not ask if he may. The same thing is true for the grown up exploiter. He does not ask if he is allowed - he does not ask because his spiritual level is so low that it does not come his mind.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

While I'm not Christian, it's about time to see someone of such stature denouncing capitalism. The Dalai Lama has also offered such sentiments, but doesn't have the air time in the west that a pope does.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Read your Old Testament. Nowhere in the Bible does Jesus say that his followers are now free to ignore the OT's many exhortations to take social responsibility for the poor and less fortunate. And as for "using the government", just who do you think the prophets were yelling at to take social responsibility? LOL! Christians! They almost never read their Bible.

Amy's kinda right, but kinda not: she's right that in the Bible, Jesus doesn't advocate using government as a vehicle, but this seems to be because he assumes that Christianity will always remain a fringe movement without political power, not because he favoured libertarianism.

As for the "render unto Caesar" line, I generally take that as a veiled way to support insurrection against the Romans without getting arrested: the Roman authorities would have heard it and thought "that's good - he acknowledges our right to tax and govern" while the Jewish listeners would have understood that ultimately everything is God's, which would leave nothing for Caesar.

 

[CMike]

Then I suggest the Catholic Church give up on its expensive churches and give it all to the poor.


How wonder how much the Vatican itself would go for? I bet they can get some bucks for the Popemobile.

All that money can go for the poor.

 

[CMike]

Read your Old Testament. Nowhere in the Bible does Jesus say that his followers are now free to ignore the OT's many exhortations to take social responsibility for the poor and less fortunate. And as for "using the government", just who do you think the prophets were yelling at to take social responsibility? LOL! Christians! They almost never read their Bible.

It was up to individuals to give on their own accord, not for the government to confiscate.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

Alot of people have been saying that if Pope Francis is really legit about his beliefs, he'll sell off all the wealth in the Vatican. I'm willing to bet that, if he had the support, he'd probably do it. But think about it: what would happen to the Catholic church if the pope were to just up and sell off everything at the Vatican? It wouldn't be pretty. Give him time, he'll get there, or to some point close to that. He's already started a firestorm just from the things he's said; change isn't going to come overnight.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It was up to individuals to give on their own accord, not for the government to confiscate.

Tell that to Ananais and Sapphyra.

As for Jewish law, this rabbi disagrees with you:

Pay your taxes, says the Torah | The Jewish Chronicle

 

[hexler]

Alot of people have been saying that if Pope Francis is really legit about his beliefs, he'll sell off all the wealth in the Vatican. I'm willing to bet that, if he had the support, he'd probably do it. But think about it: what would happen to the Catholic church if the pope were to just up and sell off everything at the Vatican? It wouldn't be pretty. Give him time, he'll get there, or to some point close to that. He's already started a firestorm just from the things he's said; change isn't going to come overnight.

I do not agree with you. Since long it is time out for Christianity. I believe in progressive revelation and that means with the appearing of Mohammed the time for the dispensation of Jesus was over. Since this time the christian community is not more as a system of power, defended by the priests.

 

[Willamena]

Pope attacks 'tyranny' of markets in manifesto for papacy | Reuters


Today's most incisive critic of capitalism: Pope Francis - latimes.com

The more I read of this new Pope, the more impressed I am.

 

[Sunstone]

It was up to individuals to give on their own accord, not for the government to confiscate.

Which is why the prophets warned of God's retribution against the entire kingdom should the poor and the widow be neglected. Or why religious laws required people to do things for the poor, etc. But yeah, the bible says nothing about government confiscation -- one way or the other.

Like so many people whose ideologies are conveniently more contemporary conservatism than actually grounded in religious tradition, you underestimate the significance of the Jewish tradition of social responsibility, which was sanctioned by the Jewish deity, rather than purely left up to the individual's conscience. For instance, compare and contrast Jewish traditions with, for instance, Greek traditions from the same period, and then -- and only then -- get back to me with how much the Jews left it up to individual conscience by the standards of the time.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

I do not agree with you. Since long it is time out for Christianity. I believe in progressive revelation and that means with the appearing of Mohammed the time for the dispensation of Jesus was over. Since this time the christian community is not more as a system of power, defended by the priests.

Regardless of religious beliefs, the Catholic church still holds alot of power. It's one of the largest organizations in the world, with right around a billion adherents. This would undoubtedly make it difficult for the current pope to just sell off the Vatican.

 

[metis]

Then I suggest the Catholic Church give up on its expensive churches and give it all to the poor.


How wonder how much the Vatican itself would go for? I bet they can get some bucks for the Popemobile.

All that money can go for the poor.

Doncha think much the same can be said of many of our synagogues?

 

[hexler]

Regardless of religious beliefs, the Catholic church still holds alot of power. It's one of the largest organizations in the world, with right around a billion adherents. This would undoubtedly make it difficult for the current pope to just sell off the Vatican.[/quote

You repeat what I said, it is a system of power. In many countries the priests have lots of problems. People are leaving the church in the number of thousands. In some countries, like Germany, christian communities get lots of money from the government, but not in all countries. Therefore in many cases they do not have the money to renew the old buildings like churches, monasteries a.s.o. These old religions (Islam is also included) are not more than owners of sightseeing places. The form is empty, no essence inside.
It looks like a banking procedure. By that I mean, if a christian community cannot afford the renovation of a church the government helps in an emergency situation with a bank credit then by and by this church is owned by the government. This is only done because tourists must be satisfied. This the declaration of bankrutptcy for a religion.

 

[LuisDantas]

Regardless of religious beliefs, the Catholic church still holds alot of power. It's one of the largest organizations in the world, with right around a billion adherents. This would undoubtedly make it difficult for the current pope to just sell off the Vatican.

Indeed. More to the point, it would not be a particularly constructive thing to do, until and unless internal resistances were overcome in a non-traumatic way. It helps to give people plenty of warning so that they may adjust their expectations in advance, too.

I do not truly expect Pope Francis to dispose of the main of the Vatican's wealth. But that is not all that important, either; far more significant is to remind people of what the role of healthy religion truly is and how it should translate into actual deeds.