Pope Francis calls unfettered capitalism 'tyranny' in manifesto for papacy

[CMike]

Tell that to Ananais and Sapphyra.

As for Jewish law, this rabbi disagrees with you:

Pay your taxes, says the Torah | The Jewish Chronicle

Did I say people shouldn't pay their taxes?

 

[CMike]

Which is why the prophets warned of God's retribution against the entire kingdom should the poor and the widow be neglected. Or why religious laws required people to do things for the poor, etc. But yeah, the bible says nothing about government confiscation -- one way or the other.

Like so many people whose ideologies are conveniently more contemporary conservatism than actually grounded in religious tradition, you underestimate the significance of the Jewish tradition of social responsibility, which was sanctioned by the Jewish deity, rather than purely left up to the individual's conscience. For instance, compare and contrast Jewish traditions with, for instance, Greek traditions from the same period, and then -- and only then -- get back to me with how much the Jews left it up to individual conscience by the standards of the time.

You are aware that conservatives donate much more to charities than liberals do?

They do so because it's the right thing to do.

 

[CMike]

Originally Posted by CMike
Then I suggest the Catholic Church give up on its expensive churches and give it all to the poor.

How wonder how much the Vatican itself would go for? I bet they can get some bucks for the Popemobile.

All that money can go for the poor.

Doncha think much the same can be said of many of our synagogues?

Perhaps, but we are not chiding people for creating wealth, he is.

 

[nazz]

Huh? You missed the part where Jesus said render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's.
I missed the part where Jesus advocates using government as a vehicle to advance his theology. What book was that??

But why would a Jesus follower be against anything done to help the poor?

 

[metis]

Huh? You missed the part where Jesus said render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's.
I missed the part where Jesus advocates using government as a vehicle to advance his theology. What book was that??

Jesus would well know that government responsibility was a significant part of halacha (Jewish Law), and there's simply nothing in the gospels that gives any indication that he thought otherwise. Why would he?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Did I say people shouldn't pay their taxes?

We were talking about using government as a means to social responsibility. You said that paying for this should be voluntary. So yeah, you kinda did.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Then I suggest the Catholic Church give up on its expensive churches and give it all to the poor.


How wonder how much the Vatican itself would go for? I bet they can get some bucks for the Popemobile.

All that money can go for the poor.

This has been addressed before: The Myth of Vatican Wealth–on Helping the Poor | Caritas et Veritas

The Catholic Church already runs the world's largest network of social services programs.

 

[Sunstone]

You are aware that conservatives donate much more to charities than liberals do?

They do so because it's the right thing to do.

You are aware that Spinoza pointed out 400 years ago that private charity alone was inadequate and that the State would need to play a significant role if the notion that helping the poor is the right thing to do was ever to be more than mere lip service?

Didn't think so.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I think it's worth pointing out that the first Christians lived in what we would call Christian communist communes. They turned over all their wealth to the Church which then distributed it among the faithful according to their needs. (Acts 2 and 4). Apparently they took Jesus' commands to sell all that you have and give it to the poor quite seriously!

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

This has been addressed before: The Myth of Vatican Wealth–on Helping the Poor | Caritas et Veritas

The Catholic Church already runs the world's largest network of social services programs.

Do you know where we could find the financial statements of the Holy See? I can find press releases about them, but not the statements themselves.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Do you know where we could find the financial statements of the Holy See? I can find press releases about them, but not the statements themselves.

The Vatican Bank's financial statement: http://www.ior.va/Portals/0/Content...lReports/425x00sc399T!/IOR_AnnualReport_E.pdf

http://ncronline.org/news/vatican/v...ancial-report-amid-concerns-over-transactions

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The Vatican Bank's financial statement: http://www.ior.va/Portals/0/Content...lReports/425x00sc399T!/IOR_AnnualReport_E.pdf

Vatican bank releases financial report amid concerns over transactions | National Catholic Reporter

Thanks, but I wasn't talking about the Vatican Bank's statements; I found them on my own.

I was talking about the Holy See itself. I can find the press releases, but not the actual documents:

VIS news - Holy See Press Office: HOLY SEE AND VATICAN CITY STATE GOVERNORATE FINANCIAL STATEMENTS: PROFITS FOR 2012

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Thanks, but I wasn't talking about the Vatican Bank's statements; I found them on my own.

I was talking about the Holy See itself. I can find the press releases, but not the actual documents:

VIS news - Holy See Press Office: HOLY SEE AND VATICAN CITY STATE GOVERNORATE FINANCIAL STATEMENTS: PROFITS FOR 2012

Oh. I don't know anything about that.

 

[Urban Dharmic Warrior]

While I'm not Christian, it's about time to see someone of such stature denouncing capitalism. The Dalai Lama has also offered such sentiments, but doesn't have the air time in the west that a pope does.

I agree.

I feel an air of optimism and positivity about this Pope. I think he can do (and is so far doing) a lot of good for the world.

 

[CMike]

VIS news - Holy See Press Office: HOLY SEE AND VATICAN CITY STATE GOVERNORATE FINANCIAL STATEMENTS: PROFITS FOR 2012

I bet they can feed a lot of poor people with all their profits.

How about their revenue?

Economy of Vatican City - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The unique, noncommercial economy of Vatican City is supported financially by ...Budget: revenues: $355.5 million (2008); expenditures: $356.8 million (2008).

Revenues$308 million (2011)Expenses$326.4 million (2011)

That can certainly go to the poor.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

VIS news - Holy See Press Office: HOLY SEE AND VATICAN CITY STATE GOVERNORATE FINANCIAL STATEMENTS: PROFITS FOR 2012

I bet they can feed a lot of poor people with all their profits.

How about their revenue?

Economy of Vatican City - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The unique, noncommercial economy of Vatican City is supported financially by ...Budget: revenues: $355.5 million (2008); expenditures: $356.8 million (2008).

Revenues$308 million (2011)Expenses$326.4 million (2011)

That can certainly go to the poor.

Where exactly do you think that money goes? The Catholic Church has done more for caring for the poor and needy then any other organization in history. When you add up all the schools, hospitals, shelters, orphanages, hospices, health care, etc., it's probably the world's largest provider of social services of any type. You're being a hypocrite.

http://impracticalcatholic.blogspot...-why-doesnt-catholic-church.html#.UsN_PbQsDqI

 

[CMike]

Where exactly do you think that money goes? The Catholic Church has done more for caring for the poor and needy then any other organization in history. When you add up all the schools, hospitals, shelters, orphanages, hospices, health care, etc., it's probably the world's largest provider of social services of any type. You're being a hypocrite.

The Impractical Catholic: Ask Tony: Why doesn't the Catholic Church give away its wealth?—UPDATED

How much do you think is the cost and maintenance for those massive, lavish, churches/castles?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

How much do you think is the cost and maintenance for those massive, lavish, churches/castles?

Have you bothered to read any of the articles I've posted? Whatever it costs to maintain them, it pales in comparison to the money spent on charitable works. Besides, as I mentioned before, it is not feasible for the Church to "sell" off its property and even less feasible for it to "sell" off the historical works of art that are under its care in places like Europe (in my understanding those works of art aren't actually "owned" by the Church, but the Church oversees their care and access to them). Why don't you actually read what I post?

This is how the Church's expenditures break down in America:

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Where exactly do you think that money goes? The Catholic Church has done more for caring for the poor and needy then any other organization in history. When you add up all the schools, hospitals, shelters, orphanages, hospices, health care, etc., it's probably the world's largest provider of social services of any type. You're being a hypocrite.

The Impractical Catholic: Ask Tony: Why doesn't the Catholic Church give away its wealth?—UPDATED

Here in Ontario, the Catholic hospitals bill the provincial government for their services the same way the secular ones do.

The vast majority of our Catholic schools are paid for by tax dollars, mostly from non-Catholics. The duplication, inefficiency, and waste of having a parallel Catholic school system along with the secular system costs Ontario taxpayers about a billion dollars a year.

The vast majority of Catholic charitable works aren't done or even funded by the Vatican; they're done by individual dioceses or by separate organizations that just happen to have "Catholic" in their name.

You complain about hypocrisy; isn't it hypocritical to first claim that the dioceses have nothing to do with the Vatican when we're tallying assets, but then count them (AND taxpayer-funded institutions, as long as they have a crucifix on the building) as part of the Vatican's contribution when tallying good works?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Here in Ontario, the Catholic hospitals bill the provincial government for their services the same way the secular ones do.

The vast majority of our Catholic schools are paid for by tax dollars, mostly from non-Catholics. The duplication, inefficiency, and waste of having a parallel Catholic school system along with the secular system costs Ontario taxpayers about a billion dollars a year.

The vast majority of Catholic charitable works aren't done or even funded by the Vatican; they're done by individual dioceses or by separate organizations that just happen to have "Catholic" in their name.

You complain about hypocrisy; isn't it hypocritical to first claim that the dioceses have nothing to do with the Vatican when we're tallying assets, but then count them (AND taxpayer-funded institutions, as long as they have a crucifix on the building) as part of the Vatican's contribution when tallying good works?

I don't know the exact mechanics of how it works everywhere. I am just sick of my religion always being singled as the one that "doesn't do enough". My Church is always the one being snidely commanded by keyboard warriors to sell off everything (even though we really can't even if we wanted to). Can't you see how that gets a bit irritating? Especially when I and some others keep providing information about why that stance isn't realistic but no one seems to pay any attention?

I have every right to call those people hypocrites. They are merely using this issue as a tool to bash one religion, but I hardly see this much vitriol being dished out towards governments and other religions who don't do half as much - hell, a quarter as much! - to care for the needy than the Catholic Church does. I don't see these people taking their own advice, selling off their belongings and donating a large chunk of their time to charity. But I guess they think they're exempt from their own smug self-righteousness that they throw out at others like grenades, right?!

So, yeah - I'm a bit mad about this. I have every right to be.