Pope Francis calls unfettered capitalism 'tyranny' in manifesto for papacy

[9-10ths_Penguin]

This is how the Church's expenditures break down in America:

That's only half of the story. What about revenues? Catholic hospitals charge insurers for their services, too. And tuition at Notre Dame sure isn't free.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

That's only half of the story. What about revenues? Catholic hospitals charge insurers for their services, too. And tuition at Notre Dame sure isn't free.

Listen man, go look it up yourself or become an auditor or something.

 

[CMike]

What is the difference?

They are using evil money?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I don't know the exact mechanics of how it works everywhere.

You're talking about the impact of a global organization. Most places in the world aren't like the US.

I am just sick of my religion always being singled as the one that "doesn't do enough". My Church is always the one being snidely commanded by keyboard warriors to sell off everything (even though we really can't even if we wanted to). Can't you see how that gets a bit irritating? Especially when I and some others keep providing information about why that stance isn't realistic but no one seems to pay any attention?

I'm not shy about calling out that behaviour in other groups when it happens. Still, when you see the head of a church that owns its own bank sitting on a literal golden throne talking about poverty... that's a special level of... special.

I have every right to call those people hypocrites. They are merely using this issue as a tool to bash one religion, but I hardly see this much vitriol being dished out towards governments and other religions who don't do half as much - hell, a quarter as much! - to care for the needy than the Catholic Church does.

Well, in the case of most other religions, they're nowhere near the size of the Catholic Church, and some of them also don't have the same sort of self-imposed mandate to help the poor, so there isn't the same sort of hypocrisy at play.

And at least in my case, the Catholic Church holds a special position:

- it's the only church whose schools I'm forced to fund with my tax dollars. Ontario has a system with secular "public" schools, Catholic "separate" schools, and no other taxpayer-funded education for any other denomination or religion. The Catholic Church is the only church that benefits from this unfair, unjust arrangement.

- it's the only church that has a say in my health care as a non-Catholic. I live about halfway between a Catholic hospital and a secular hospital. Both are equally funded by taxpayer funds and private donations (and, AFAIK, the Catholic hospital gets no money from the Church itself), but the Catholic hospital doesn't offer services that go against Catholic teachings.

- the Catholic Church has tried to shape policy that affects my loved ones directly and my society in general to a much greater degree than any other religious group. The campaign against the legalization of same-sex marriage here was spearheaded by the Archbishop, and (judging by the signs they carry), abortion clinic picketers here are almost exclusively part of Catholic Church-organized campaigns.

The Catholic Church has imposed itself on me to a degree that no other church or religion has. I think this justifies me calling it out to a greater degree than any other church or religion.

But even so, aside from the priest sex abuse scandal (which I hope you'll agree is an issue where the guilty parties deserve some vitriol), I probably have more harsh words for the monarchy than I do for the Catholic Church.

I don't see these people taking their own advice, selling off their belongings and donating a large chunk of their time to charity. But I guess they think they're exempt from self-righteousness that they throw out at others like grenades, right?!

Speaking for myself, I don't proclaim to believe that a book that says "sell your possessions and follow me" was divinely inspired. Still, I actually do donate quite a bit of time and money to charitable causes.

So, yeah - I'm a bit mad about this. I have every right to be.

And I have every right to feel the way I do about the Catholic Church.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Listen man, go look it up yourself or become an auditor or something.

Luckily, the article that you grabbed that graphic from has a bit of insight on that:

Where that money comes from is hard to say (the church does not release numbers on this either). Some of it is from the offerings of the faithful. Anecdotal evidence suggests that America’s Catholics give about $10 per week on average. Assuming that one-third attend church regularly, that would put the annual offertory income at around $13 billion. More comes from elite groups of large donors such as the Papal Foundation, based in Pennsylvania, whose 138 members pledge to donate at least $1m annually, and Legatus, a group of more than 2,000 Catholic business leaders that was founded by Tom Monaghan of Domino’s Pizza.

There is also income from investments. Timothy Dolan, the president of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) and Cardinal-Archbishop of New York (a “corporation sole”, meaning a legal entity consisting of a single incorporated office, occupied by a single person), is believed to be Manhattan’s largest landowner, if one includes the parishes and organisations that come under his jurisdiction. Another source of revenue is local and federal government, which bankroll the Medicare and Medicaid of patients in Catholic hospitals, the cost of educating pupils in Catholic schools and loans to students attending Catholic universities.

The Catholic church in America: Earthly concerns | The Economist

You know, something struck me: for-profit companies run hospitals, too. For instance, the Hospital Corporation of America runs a large number of private hospitals. In their most recent available annual report, they had annual revenues of about $24.5 billion and expenses of about $22.1 billion.

The graph you showed us estimated the annual expenses of Catholic hospitals at $98.6 billion. If Catholic-run hospitals generate revenue at about the same rate as corporate-run hospitals, then this would mean that level of expenditure would generate about $109.3 billion in revenue... which would mean about $10.7 billion in profit (before tax... though these Catholic hospitals likely pay no tax, right?).

This is more than double the amount spent on charity on your graph.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What is the difference?

They are using evil money?

The difference is that if the Catholic Church is making boatloads of cash running hospitals and universities, then these things probably shouldn't be counted as charitable activities.

 

[AmyintheBibleBelt]

Where exactly do you think that money goes? The Catholic Church has done more for caring for the poor and needy then any other organization in history. When you add up all the schools, hospitals, shelters, orphanages, hospices, health care, etc., it's probably the world's largest provider of social services of any type. You're being a hypocrite.

The Impractical Catholic: Ask Tony: Why doesn't the Catholic Church give away its wealth?—UPDATED

And they do it of their own desire and free will.

 

[AmyintheBibleBelt]

I don't know the exact mechanics of how it works everywhere. I am just sick of my religion always being singled as the one that "doesn't do enough". My Church is always the one being snidely commanded by keyboard warriors to sell off everything (even though we really can't even if we wanted to). Can't you see how that gets a bit irritating? Especially when I and some others keep providing information about why that stance isn't realistic but no one seems to pay any attention?

I have every right to call those people hypocrites. They are merely using this issue as a tool to bash one religion, but I hardly see this much vitriol being dished out towards governments and other religions who don't do half as much - hell, a quarter as much! - to care for the needy than the Catholic Church does. I don't see these people taking their own advice, selling off their belongings and donating a large chunk of their time to charity. But I guess they think they're exempt from their own smug self-righteousness that they throw out at others like grenades, right?!

So, yeah - I'm a bit mad about this. I have every right to be.

I am a not so religious person who formally was a devout Protestant. The Catholic Church has been steadfast and unified since The Council of Trent. They have probably done more charitable work than any other group or organization in history. The new Pope is profoundly remarkable to me and that the church is behind him as a champion of financial responsibiltiy, humility, progress, human rights....that his message is love and service.... it is the most relevent and admirable example on behalf of religion I have seen in a while. Whoever has criticism of the Catholic church now... their critique is....unwarranted and not the result of a well informed mind.

 

[AmyintheBibleBelt]

The difference is that if the Catholic Church is making boatloads of cash running hospitals and universities, then these things probably shouldn't be counted as charitable activities.

Substantiate this with a reliable source and data?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Substantiate this with a reliable source and data?

I said "if". It's hard to find out financial details of the Church, as I touched on in my earlier post.

But I do note that many hospitals and universities are run as for-profit businesses, so I think it's unreasonable to assume that they must be charitable activities when they're run by a religious group.

 

[CMike]

The point to me is that the Pope's statements are hypocritical.

While he attacks busineses, people with money, and achievers, the Catholic Church, is probably one of the biggest conglomorates in the world that makes billions of dollars.

 

[metis]

The point to me is that the Pope's statements are hypocritical.

While he attacks busineses, people with money, and achievers, the Catholic Church, is probably one of the biggest conglomorates in the world that makes billions of dollars.

But I don't see him doing that as his position simply is not an attack on businesses, people with money, or achievers. What he is attacking is allowing greed to dominate the marketplace whereas most or all the cards are stacked in favor of the wealthy because "money talks..."-- and you know the rest. Having money is like having a car-- it can be used for good or for evil.

 

[hexler]

Wether capitalism or state capitalism - it stays a system of ruthless exploitation. Everybody knows, which crimes chinese, russian economics or big companies from around the world are doing. This system is lacking awareness of the results of their doing. Oftentimes it was said, that mankind is in a development of self dustruction. It is a pity that also the innocent people have to suffer for crimes of other people.

 

[metis]

Wether capitalism or state capitalism - it stays a system of ruthless exploitation. Everybody knows, which crimes chinese, russian economics or big companies from around the world are doing. This system is lacking awareness of the results of their doing. Oftentimes it was said, that mankind is in a development of self dustruction. It is a pity that also the innocent people have to suffer for crimes of other people.

I agree, but let me just add that we are seeing it happen here as well in the States. We see major corporations paying little to know federal taxes, thus throwing the financial burden on others. We see the allowance of wealthy people and companies moving money out of the country to put in foreign accounts whereas they can pay far less taxes. We see states and local communities giving tax breaks to attract more business to move there but at the expense of their own people who have to make up the difference in higher taxes. We see demands by companies to ease environmental regulations whereas others would have to put up with higher levels of pollution. We see companies being allowed to deduct losses through bankruptcy while at the same time students cannot do the same with not being able to pay off their student loans. And there's much more, as you well know.

We are rather quickly moving the direction of being a "banana republic" unless we do something to reverse this trend.

 

[hexler]

When I read the following quote it made me sad, that I cannot help the selfdestructor. Why do we only learn through pain??

Self-destructive behaviour - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Causes

Self-destructive behaviour is often a form of self-punishment in response to a personal failure, which may be real or perceived. It may or may not be connected with feelings of self-hatred.

It is a common misconception that self-destructive behaviour is inherently attention seeking, or at least that attention is a primary motive. While this is undoubtedly true in some cases, normally the motivation runs much deeper than that.

As might be expected, it is more common in those afflicted with clinical depression.

Alternatively, in some cases it could be explained by a person having learned dysfunctional patterns earlier in life. Separation from parents and attachment disorders have been linked with self-destructive behaviour, and with failure to engage in self-care behaviour.

 

[CMike]

But I don't see him doing that as his position simply is not an attack on businesses, people with money, or achievers. What he is attacking is allowing greed to dominate the marketplace whereas most or all the cards are stacked in favor of the wealthy because "money talks..."-- and you know the rest. Having money is like having a car-- it can be used for good or for evil.

That's not what he said though.

 

[metis]

That's not what he said though.

Actually, in general, that is what he said. He is not anti-capitalistic, but he is opposed to "unbridled capitalism", and these are terms that he has used. BTW, that is really not new to RCC teachings as the church has always been concerned with that. It's his bluntness that's attracting so much attention, and I applaud him for that.:clap

 

[BSM1]

I agree, but let me just add that we are seeing it happen here as well in the States. We see major corporations paying little to know federal taxes, thus throwing the financial burden on others. We see the allowance of wealthy people and companies moving money out of the country to put in foreign accounts whereas they can pay far less taxes. We see states and local communities giving tax breaks to attract more business to move there but at the expense of their own people who have to make up the difference in higher taxes. We see demands by companies to ease environmental regulations whereas others would have to put up with higher levels of pollution. We see companies being allowed to deduct losses through bankruptcy while at the same time students cannot do the same with not being able to pay off their student loans. And there's much more, as you well know.

We are rather quickly moving the direction of being a "banana republic" unless we do something to reverse this trend.

Obviously you need a remedial course in economics. Corporations and businesses do not pay taxes. Every cost incurred in business (including taxes) is passed on to the consumer (that's you). So every time a tax or sanction or fee is placed on a business you pay it (check out your power provider). Also the reason US businesses move out of the country is that the monetary restrictions arbitrarily imposed on them by the government makes their product so expensive that it can't be sold to customers. Please remember that businesses are not charities; they have to make a profit to remain in existence. BTW there is a difference between profit and profit margin.
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[Sunstone]

Obviously you need a remedial course in economics. Corporations and businesses do not pay taxes. Every cost incurred in business (including taxes) is passed on to the consumer (that's you). So every time a tax or sanction or fee is placed on a business you pay it (check out your power provider).
​

The truth is more complex than "Every cost incurred in business (including taxes) is passed on to the consumer." Depending on a mix of factors, including the competitive environment, market demand, the clout the business has with its suppliers, and so forth, the cost of taxes (or any other cost) is sometimes taken out of profits, is sometimes offset by improved efficiencies, is sometimes passed along to suppliers, and is only sometimes passed along to consumers.

 

[metis]

Obviously you need a remedial course in economics.​

I appreciate the condescending insult because that pretty much tells me where you're coming from.

Corporations and businesses do not pay taxes. Every cost incurred in business (including taxes) is passed on to the consumer (that's you). So every time a tax or sanction or fee is placed on a business you pay it (check out your power provider).

The above is simply not completely true as a great deal of the profit goes to investors, therefore taxing profits as they should be doesn't always get fully passed on to the consumer. Also, just remember that if someone is getting a tax break, someone else must make up the difference, and guess who that's likely to be?

If the consumer has to pick up the difference with higher taxes on themselves, they tend to buy less, which negatively affects producers and their investors. The key, as any serious economist will tell you, is to get money one way or another to those who are most likely to spend locally, because it's this grass-roots spending that will stimulate the economy more than anything else. Giving tax breaks to major companies and corporations simply does not help Joe and Mary Schmoe locally. Economics 101.

Also the reason US businesses move out of the country is that the monetary restrictions arbitrarily imposed on them by the government makes their product so expensive that it can't be sold to customers.

Businesses mostly moved out because it's simply cheaper to produce widgets in Vietnam, which pays an average of 75 cents an hour for full time manufacture, versus what we pay here. Moving into this global economy over the last four decades with sharply reduced tariffs helped us in the short haul but is killing us now.

Please remember that businesses are not charities; they have to make a profit to remain in existence.

No one is arguing against profits that I can see, including myself. The net tax rate on corporations and especially large businesses is at the lowest rate since WWII, and we see one of the world's largest corporations, Exxon-Mobile, who didn't pay any federal taxes last year, and then actually received money from the government at the same time.

So, we have a choice: either those at the top pay more taxes, or those at the bottom or middle pay more taxes. If one says "the latter" or "neither", then we will continue a slide down to become more like a banana republic. This was predicted back around 1980 by many economists who came to believe in H. Ross Perot's statement about a "great sucking sound" of jobs being lost here in the States and moving out of the country in his criticism of NAFTA.

So, I'll give you the last word.

Shalom​