Pope Francis I

[Jayhawker Soule]

From Wikipedia ...

Abortion and euthanasia

Cardinal Bergoglio has encouraged his clergy and laity to oppose both abortion and euthanasia.

Homosexuality

He has affirmed church teaching on homosexuality, though he teaches the importance of respecting individuals who are gay or lesbian.[citation needed] He strongly opposed legislation introduced in 2010 by the Argentine Government to allow same-sex marriage, calling it a "real and dire anthropological throwback". In a letter to the monasteries of Buenos Aires, he wrote: "Let's not be naive, we're not talking about a simple political battle; it is a destructive pretension against the plan of God. We are not talking about a mere bill, but rather a machination of the Father of Lies that seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God." He has also insisted that adoption by gay and lesbian people is a form of discrimination against children. This position received a rebuke from Argentine president Cristina Fernández de Kirchner, who said the church's tone was reminiscent of "medieval times and the Inquisition".

Class equality

During a 48-hour public servant strike in Buenos Aires, Argentina, Bergoglio observed the differences between, "poor people who are persecuted for demanding work, and rich people who are applauded for fleeing from justice"

- source

This is troubling and hardly suggests that reform is on the horizon.

 

[Jainarayan]

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

 

[BSM1]

It's already been suggested that Frank is maybe a "place holder" until they find a maverick.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

It's already been suggested that Frank is maybe a "place holder" until they find a maverick.

Perhaps by some juvenile and insensitive fool, but why pay any attention to such a person?

 

[Secret Chief]

Pope found to be reactionary. Police not called in.

 

[Flankerl]

Why would someone be catholic if he/she wanted to have a reformed church?

Its not like there arent any reformed churches out there.


Never understood that...



As far as the pope is concerned he looked uncomfortable.

 

[Assad91]

OP is not surprising. Its a Catholic.

Anyway. I think what should be pointed out is the fact he is not only the first "Francis" but also the first Latino

 

[InformedIgnorance]

I was actually discussing this with my family the other day and I was mentioning how brilliant an idea it would be for them to have a South American Conservative as their next pope (I was split between africa and south america, my mum was saying asian, my brother was saying european again); they increase fervour in their greatest constituency, show a non european dominated church, give hope of reform by it being someone from south america and yet at the same time manage to select someone who has negligible significant differences with the establishment. This is the very model of what they needed, an inspired move and one they will probably look to use again in the future (probably not the next pope but the one after is likely to be an african conservative) edit: I do however find it amusing that it was such a inspired move from a political perspective... one would think it should have been a divinely inspired one.

It's already been suggested that Frank is maybe a "place holder" until they find a maverick.

They said the same about Benedict; I think 'placeholder' is their preferred type of pope, they are not after that maverick, they are instead hoping to hold their ground until society itself changes back to a state where the church and its established policies seem more palatable.

 

[Falvlun]

I just read a quick little bio of him. He seems like a nice enough guy, active with the poor and unostentatious. Of course I disagree with his stance on abortion and gay marriage, but really, we are talking about the religious stances of a particular religion. It would be like expecting orthodox Jews to suddenly claim that eating pork was okay.

 

[Iti oj]

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

The more things stay the same the more I go insane-Moe

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I just read a quick little bio of him. He seems like a nice enough guy, active with the poor and unostentatious.

Hmm. After the Pope was announced, a bunch of stories came up in my Facebook feed about his complicity with Argentina's military dictatorship... for instance, there was this 2011 article from the Guardian:

What one did not hear from any senior member of the Argentinian hierarchy was any expression of regret for the church's collaboration and in these crimes. The extent of the church's complicity in the dark deeds was excellently set out by Horacio Verbitsky, one of Argentina's most notable journalists, in his book El Silencio (Silence). He recounts how the Argentinian navy with the connivance of Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio, now the Jesuit archbishop of Buenos Aires, hid from a visiting delegation of the Inter-American Human Rights Commission the dictatorship's political prisoners. Bergoglio was hiding them in nothing less than his holiday home in an island called El Silencio in the River Plate. The most shaming thing for the church is that in such circumstances Bergoglio's name was allowed to go forward in the ballot to chose the successor of John Paul II. What scandal would not have ensued if the first pope ever to be elected from the continent of America had been revealed as an accessory to murder and false imprisonment

The sins of the Argentinian church | Hugh O'Shaughnessy | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk

And this article is a bit less accusatory, but still doesn't put the new Pope in the most positive of lights:

Will Francis's role during Argentina's 'Dirty War' come back to haunt him? | FP Passport

 

[arhys]

From Wikipedia ...This is troubling and hardly suggests that reform is on the horizon.

The absence of liberal reforms are never, ever troubling.

Anyway. I think what should be pointed out is the fact he is not only the first "Francis" but also the first Latino

The Papacy pulled an impressive fast-one. They benefit from the illusion that this Pope is the first 'Latino,' thereby pleasing their constituents south of the border, and, at the same time, maintain the status quo; this ain't the first "Latino" Pope - this is the 2xxth Italian Pope. He was born to Italian parents in Argentina. Not exactly talking about an Oaxacan here - or even a Mestizo. Or a Spaniard.

Anyhoo, if there are any Reformed, Methodist/Wesleyan or Lutheran folks here, now is as good a time as any to get back to the basics.

The Westminster Confession identifies the Pope as Antichrist:

Chapter XXV. VI. There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ: nor can the Pope of Rome in any sense be head thereof; but is that Antichrist, that man of sin and son of perdition, that exalteth himself in the Church against Christ, and all that is called God.

John Wesley identifies the Pope as Antichrist in his commentary of 2 Thessalonians:

Verse 3. Unless the falling away - From the pure faith of the gospel, come first. This began even in the apostolic age. But the man of sin, the son of perdition - Eminently so called, is not come yet. However, in many respects, the Pope has an indisputable claim to those titles. He is, in an emphatical sense, the man of sin, as he increases all manner of sin above measure. And he is, too, properly styled, the son of perdition, as he has caused the death of numberless multitudes, both of his opposers and followers, destroyed innumerable souls, and will himself perish everlastingly. He it is that opposeth himself to the emperor, once his rightful sovereign; and that exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped - Commanding angels, and putting kings under his feet, both of whom are called gods in scripture; claiming the highest power, the highest honour; suffering himself, not once only, to be styled God or vice-God. Indeed no less is implied in his ordinary title, "Most Holy Lord," or, "Most Holy Father." So that he sitteth - Enthroned.

Martin Luther identifies the Pope as Antichrist in his Smalcald Articles:

This teaching shows forcefully that the Pope is the very Antichrist, who has exalted himself above, and opposed himself against Christ, because he will not permit Christians to be saved without his power, which, nevertheless, is nothing, and is neither ordained nor commanded by God. This is, properly speaking, to exalt himself above all that is called God... The Pope, however, prohibits this faith, saying that to be saved a person must obey him.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The absence of liberal reforms are never, ever troubling.

Don't let all that hubris weigh you down (but, for the record, you don't get to determine what troubles people).

 

[Assad91]

The absence of liberal reforms are never, ever troubling.



The Papacy pulled an impressive fast-one. They benefit from the illusion that this Pope is the first 'Latino,' thereby pleasing their constituents south of the border, and, at the same time, maintain the status quo; this ain't the first "Latino" Pope - this is the 2xxth Italian Pope. He was born to Italian parents in Argentina. Not exactly talking about an Oaxacan here - or even a Mestizo. Or a Spaniard.

Anyhoo, if there are any Reformed, Methodist/Wesleyan or Lutheran folks here, now is as good a time as any to get back to the basics.

The Westminster Confession identifies the Pope as Antichrist:

Chapter XXV. VI. There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ: nor can the Pope of Rome in any sense be head thereof; but is that Antichrist, that man of sin and son of perdition, that exalteth himself in the Church against Christ, and all that is called God.

John Wesley identifies the Pope as Antichrist in his commentary of 2 Thessalonians:

Verse 3. Unless the falling away - From the pure faith of the gospel, come first. This began even in the apostolic age. But the man of sin, the son of perdition - Eminently so called, is not come yet. However, in many respects, the Pope has an indisputable claim to those titles. He is, in an emphatical sense, the man of sin, as he increases all manner of sin above measure. And he is, too, properly styled, the son of perdition, as he has caused the death of numberless multitudes, both of his opposers and followers, destroyed innumerable souls, and will himself perish everlastingly. He it is that opposeth himself to the emperor, once his rightful sovereign; and that exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped - Commanding angels, and putting kings under his feet, both of whom are called gods in scripture; claiming the highest power, the highest honour; suffering himself, not once only, to be styled God or vice-God. Indeed no less is implied in his ordinary title, "Most Holy Lord," or, "Most Holy Father." So that he sitteth - Enthroned.

Martin Luther identifies the Pope as Antichrist in his Smalcald Articles:

This teaching shows forcefully that the Pope is the very Antichrist, who has exalted himself above, and opposed himself against Christ, because he will not permit Christians to be saved without his power, which, nevertheless, is nothing, and is neither ordained nor commanded by God. This is, properly speaking, to exalt himself above all that is called God... The Pope, however, prohibits this faith, saying that to be saved a person must obey him.

He still Latino. Even with Italian parents. He grew up in Argentina, he would understand Latinoamericano. Regardless.


Oh, a bunch of Protestants said the Pope was the antichrist....... I am soooooooo surprised.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

Antichrist means different things in different contexts, a lot of people have this grandious concept of the antichrist being some sort of world ending demon worshipping revelation-esque figure, but the more correct use of the term is simply somone who is preaching and leading people towards teachings that you do not believe are in line of those from christ (thus, the teachings are anti-christ as is the one preaching them). Calling the pope the anti-christ as a member of another christian denomination merely means that they think that the pope is leading people towards teachings that are not in line with what they think christ's teachings were... i.e. the very reason that they are different denominations in the first place.

 

[Assad91]

Antichrist means different things in different contexts, a lot of people have this grandious concept of the antichrist being some sort of world ending demon worshipping revelation-esque figure, but the more common use of the term, is simply somone who is preaching and leading people towards teachings that you do not believe are from christ (thus, the teachings are anti-christ as is the one preaching them). Calling the pope the anti-christ as a member of another christian denomination merely means that they think that the pope is leading people towards teachings that are not in line with what they think christ's teachings were... i.e. the very reason that they are different denominations in the first place.

And I am sure Catholics thought the same about the Protestant reformers.

But what relevance does it have?

 

[InformedIgnorance]

I am just putting the use of the term antichrist in context because for some people it is an emotionally charged term and given the issue might be sensitive to some, I thought it would good to give some perspective on potential meanings of the term rather than have some comment like 'i am soooo surprised' which might be interpreted in many ways - ranging from 'well they are from a different denomination and thus technically correct from their perspective' to 'those scum it doesnt surprise me they say that sort of thing'

 

[Alceste]

Hopefully this puts an end to the incessant pope news on CBC radio.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

There are interesting aspects to the election of Pope Francis

• he is a Jesuit
• He chose the name Francis
• he supports "Liberation Theology"
• he understands the attraction of modern protestant evangelicals
• he is old

As the first Jesuit pope he brings the most powerful and highly educated Catholic minds with him. This is a stunning development... never before has the Church risked bringing Jesuits into the highest office.
The last pope required the Society of Jesus to affirm its fidelity to the magisterium and the Holy See. ( demonstrating the Churches continuing fear of them)

It will be interesting to see who he appoints to the top positions.
Adolfo Nicolás Pachón, Superior General of the Society of Jesus, would seem to be a candidate. He has a shared interest in the poor and in liberation theology, and would bring all Jesuits with him.

 

[Hitchey]

OP is not surprising. Its a Catholic.

Anyway. I think what should be pointed out is the fact he is not only the first "Francis" but also the first Latino

However, both his parents are Italian born. It's a nice compromise.