• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Pope Francis I

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
There are interesting aspects to the election of Pope Francis
  • he is a Jesuit
  • He chose the name Francis
  • he supports "Liberation Theology"
  • he understands the attraction of modern protestant evangelicals
  • he is old
As the first Jesuit pope he brings the most powerful and highly educated Catholic minds with him. This is a stunning development... never before has the Church risked bringing Jesuits into the highest office.
The last pope required the Society of Jesus to affirm its fidelity to the magisterium and the Holy See. ( demonstrating the Churches continuing fear of them)

It will be interesting to see who he appoints to the top positions.
Adolfo Nicolás Pachón, Superior General of the Society of Jesus, would seem to be a candidate. He has a shared interest in the poor and in liberation theology, and would bring all Jesuits with him.
He's also the Ordinary for all Eastern Catholics in Argentina, and is apparently biritual between Latin and Byzantine (meaning he can celebrate both a Roman Mass and a Byzantine Divine Liturgy). He has close ties to the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church. So he's making the rounds among Eastern Catholics as well, and from what I can tell, he is very well-liked by them, especially the ones over which he had pastoral care in Argentina.
 

Hitchey

Member
Agreed. Most of the people I know who quit their childhood religion did not do so lightly.
I was once a member of the United Church of Canada and though they are light on fire and brimstone preaching I still found it a challenge. Though I had given up belief in God I still carried with me the fear of Hell for a number of years; that is I carried with me the fear that I might be wrong. I don't know how prevalent this trepidation is among atheists, but I know it haunts a few; and possibly it troubles some who turn away from their childhood faith to adopt another.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
I was once a member of the United Church of Canada and though they are light on fire and brimstone preaching I still found it a challenge. Though I had given up belief in God I still carried with me the fear of Hell for a number of years; that is I carried with me the fear that I might be wrong. I don't know how prevalent this trepidation is among atheists, but I know it haunts a few; and possibly it troubles some who turn away from their childhood faith to adopt another.

Hey, that's the same church I left! Canadian ex-religious high five!

I don't remember ever believing in hell, heaven or God though. I just liked singing in the choir and getting free cookies.
 

-Peacemaker-

.45 Cal
The OP really is in the same vein as the coverage of this event on CNN which IMO has been severely lacking. It's a continuation of this ridiculous crying from outside the Church about "necessary reforms" that need to be implemented by it. It's basically the secular community trying to get the Church to conform to their standards of right and wrong. Inside the Church there is far less debate about abortion and gays than the secular community might want you to believe. I'm not even sure ordination of women and contraception are as highly debated in Catholicism as some of the news networks are portraying. Many people don't understand that the very nature of the Christian Church is to often stand in opposition to the standards of those around them. If people who don't follow the teachings of Jesus are offended or troubled by the Church's standards on sin issues then it's mission accomplished! If reforms are to take place in the Church it will be through the authority of Scripture, not products of the sexual revolution.​
 
Last edited:

Hitchey

Member
Hey, that's the same church I left! Canadian ex-religious high five!
Right back at ya! Eh! :)

Alceste said:
I don't remember ever believing in hell, heaven or God though. I just liked singing in the choir and getting free cookies.
:) My sister said she liked getting dressed up and wearing her little white gloves. I don't remember much about it myself except there came a time that I wanted out. I did believe in God; fact is everyone around me believed, so I guess I didn't have much choice. I did believe in Hell, enough so that the consequence of being wrong was paramount on my mind. I know how difficult it was to pull myself out of the quagmire of belief, I can imagine how much harder it must be for someone who is thoroughly indoctrinated.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Right back at ya! Eh! :)


:) My sister said she liked getting dressed up and wearing her little white gloves. I don't remember much about it myself except there came a time that I wanted out. I did believe in God; fact is everyone around me believed, so I guess I didn't have much choice. I did believe in Hell, enough so that the consequence of being wrong was paramount on my mind. I know how difficult it was to pull myself out of the quagmire of belief, I can imagine how much harder it must be for someone who is thoroughly indoctrinated.

I get you. In retrospect, it's kind of weird that it never occurred to me that I was supposed to believe a bunch of stuff. I tend to tune out when people are talking, though, especially when I'm not interested in the subject. So maybe none of the sermons went in or something. All I remember is being really bored and singing lots of Latin songs.

OTOH, I'm pretty sure it was mostly concerned with how to go about loving your neighbour even when he's a jerk and such like. I don't think our minister was particularly interested in hell. And my parents certainly aren't. I doubt either of them believe in it, or ever did.

Eventually we stopped going because my mother said she felt closer to God in nature than cooped up in a church.
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
The one main thing about church I miss is the singing. I love singing but I'm terrible at it. So I belt out songs to myself, but there is something really nice about singing with a bunch of other people, and reading the music and seeing if you can get your voice to do it. There's not many other opportunities in life to do that.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
The one main thing about church I miss is the singing. I love singing but I'm terrible at it. So I belt out songs to myself, but there is something really nice about singing with a bunch of other people, and reading the music and seeing if you can get your voice to do it. There's not many other opportunities in life to do that.

No, that's true! I joined a secular choral group when we stopped going to church, but there was only one in the city. It is lovely, singing in harmonies. I'm going to cash in on Christmas this year and do a choral concert with my lady friends. :D we prefer really old stuff - 15th and 16th century. It's gorgeous music, and we have some nice arrangements.
 

Tbone

Member
From Wikipedia ...This is troubling and hardly suggests that reform is on the horizon.
Religons are not to be reformed they are to reform.
People either change because they believe or understand a religon to be true.
If they don't agree, they move on. A religon does not change to be like the people.
That's not what they are for, but rather the other way around.
 

Fingy

Member
From Wikipedia ...This is troubling and hardly suggests that reform is on the horizon.

Pope Francis is only following church doctrine that has been passed down for centuries. It is not within his power to shift the moral stance of the church. If that were the case it would not be the catholic church it would be the "anything goes church of moral relativism". When I hear commentators speaking of "reform" what they really desire is a church that conforms to their liberal values - not a catholic church.
 

Rakhel

Well-Known Member
At least the guy is for contraception when it comes to the spread of disease. Which is more than the last number of Popes have ever gone and said.
And I have to say I do like this quote of his
"These are today's hypocrites; those who clericalize the church," he told his priests. "Those who separate the people of God from salvation. And this poor girl who, rather than returning the child to sender, had the courage to carry it into the world, must wander from parish to parish so that it's baptized!"
Pope Francis: Simple Image, Complex Past : NPR

WE that and his latest to the Cardinals, "May God forgive you for what you have done" (referring to their election of him)
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Pope Francis is only following church doctrine that has been passed down for centuries. It is not within his power to shift the moral stance of the church. If that were the case it would not be the catholic church it would be the "anything goes church of moral relativism". When I hear commentators speaking of "reform" what they really desire is a church that conforms to their liberal values - not a catholic church.

Funny, last time I was in a Catholic church, I could have sworn the priest was speaking Spanish - not Latin.
 

Hitchey

Member
I tend to tune out when people are talking, though, especially when I'm not interested in the subject. So maybe none of the sermons went in or something. All I remember is being really bored and singing lots of Latin songs.
I recall an extreme feeling of boredom in church. It may be I didn't understand the sermons; I think I was about 12 when I stopped attending. There was a lot of singing, but I don't recall taking part. I was as bored by the singing as by anything else, but then I have no talent for it.

Alceste said:
OTOH, I'm pretty sure it was mostly concerned with how to go about loving your neighbour even when he's a jerk and such like. I don't think our minister was particularly interested in hell. And my parents certainly aren't. I doubt either of them believe in it, or ever did.
My home life had very little religion in it. My father believed in Adam and Eve, but then he also accepted Darwin's explanations of human evolution and conveyed them to me. I don't think he really thought enough about it to notice the conflict between the two world views. My mother has always been very private about her beliefs and to this day I don't know what she thinks.

Alceste said:
Eventually we stopped going because my mother said she felt closer to God in nature than cooped up in a church.
My mother told me we stopped attending because I took the pleasure out of it. Hmm.
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Responding to a comment on page 1
Flankerl said:
Why would someone be catholic if he/she wanted to have a reformed church?

Its not like there arent any reformed churches out there.
Its like when you've been dating someone for a while even though there's something you don't like, and you try to preserve the relationship. There are some other practical reasons, and this is where Protestants historically differed from those who disagreed with official church policy but stayed. Originally those who stayed were called Reformers. The Reformed churches are actually Protestant. Joining a Protestant church feels to Catholics like cutting themselves off from the vine, and the question of legitimacy occasionally comes up. If leaving is a good way to resolve issues, then how do they justify having a church at all? How do they explain to children and to God that there are two churches instead of one? Who should be their priest and how do they choose one? There are lots of these demanding questions and feelings of uncertainty.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
This is troubling and hardly suggests that reform is on the horizon.

I too doubt that reform is on the horizon. But I think it possible -- based on his political activism in Argentina -- that a more activist Church might be on the horizon.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Religons are not to be reformed they are to reform.
People either change because they believe or understand a religon to be true.
If they don't agree, they move on. A religon does not change to be like the people.
That's not what they are for, but rather the other way around.

That may be the theory, but the practice has often been the other way around.
 
Top