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Pope is not declaring Lucifer as God

EtuMalku

EtuMalku

Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
The hymn in the video is not talking about the deity Lucifer but the word 'shining one', allow me to explain;

The Latin word Lucifer is not a 'name' Lucifer. The Latin word Lucifer is roughly 'morning star' or 'brilliant one' 'light bearer' etc. The same confusion takes place in Isaiah 14:12 ‑‑ but only in the King James and related versions:

Isaiah 14:12:
"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning?"
The association is in regards to the Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar and is in reference to the Morning Star which is a title that Jesus uses for himself as well.

Revelation 22:16:
"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

In 382 AD, Pope Damasus I commissioned St. Jerome to write a revision of the old Latin translation of the Bible. It was St. Jerome who placed the word Lucifer into the Christian bible . . . St. Jerome replaced the Hebrew word Helel with Lucifer. Helel means ‘shining one’.

Lucifer is a pre‑Christian deity of ancient Roman and Greek mythology. He is mentioned in Publius Ovidius Naso's "Metamorphoses", which was written in 8 B.C.E., Roman poet Virgil mentions him as far back as 29 B.C.E. And the first mention is from Timaeus by Plato written 360 B.C.E
 
JayJayDee

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
Cannot see a video or a link, but you are correct...Lucifer was never a name given to the devil.

"The expression “shining one,” or “Lucifer,” is found in what Isaiah prophetically commanded the Israelites to pronounce as a “proverbial saying against the king of Babylon.” Thus, it is part of a saying primarily directed at the Babylonian dynasty. That the description “shining one” is given to a man and not to a spirit creature is further seen by the statement: “Down to Sheol you will be brought.” Sheol is the common grave of mankind—not a place occupied by Satan the Devil. Moreover, those seeing Lucifer brought into this condition ask: “Is this the man that was agitating the earth?” Clearly, “Lucifer” refers to a human, not to a spirit creature.—Isaiah 14:4, 15, 16.

Why is such an eminent description given to the Babylonian dynasty? We must realize that the king of Babylon was to be called the shining one only after his fall and in a taunting way. (Isaiah 14:3) Selfish pride prompted Babylon’s kings to elevate themselves above those around them. So great was the arrogance of the dynasty that it is portrayed as bragging: “To the heavens I shall go up. Above the stars of God I shall lift up my throne, and I shall sit down upon the mountain of meeting, in the remotest parts of the north. . . . I shall make myself resemble the Most High.”—Isaiah 14:13, 14."

Questions From Readers — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
 
Mindmaster

Mindmaster

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
They've been screwing up for so long there is no reason to stop now! Besides, all the other crap they borrowed from Paradise Lost would be meaningless if you pointed out this error. :)
 
D

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
LASTINGLIGHT said:
I always thought it meant the planet Venus, early in the morning.
Click to expand...

It's a descriptive title, a positive one. The negative attributes that have become associated with the 'title', are from legend, and some sort of word mixup. There is no way that the early Xians would have called Jesus the same name as the devil, or some negative entity.

It's a strange topic, actually, how the name means both a title for Jesus, and, for many /if not most people/, a negative connotation if not outright 'name of', a evil, or demonic being.
 
lewisnotmiller

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
disciple said:
This seems vague.
Click to expand...

Really? I can try and extrapolate, I guess.

You asked for proof that Lucifer or the morning star were titles used before Jesus. Therefore we are talking over 2000 years ago, at which point 'proof' gets a little vague. Consider evidence of the life and times of Julius Caesar as a quick comparison. Nothing is 'certain' when dealing with ancient times.

However, personally, I would consider Attar as a potential source of information, under various guises. Modern translation of him as God of the Morning Star may be accurate, or may simply be a reference to him being linked with the planet Venus. Although I guess that doesn't make it inaccurate.

What is it you are looking for as 'proof'? That seems an interesting concept.
 
arthra

arthra

Baha'i
Looking at the etymology of "Lucifer" I found the following:

Old English Lucifer "Satan," also "morning star," from Latin Lucifer "morning star," literally "light-bringing," from lux (genitive lucis) "light" (see light (n.)) + ferre "carry" (see infer).

Belief that it was the proper name of Satan began with its use in Bible to translate Greek Phosphoros, which translates Hebrew Helel ben Shahar in Isaiah xiv:12 -- "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!" [KJV] Because of the mention of a fall from Heaven, the verse was interpreted by Christians as a reference to Satan, even though it is literally a reference to the King of Babylon (see Isaiah xiv:4).

Lucifer match "friction match" is from 1831. Adjectival forms include Luciferian, Luciferine, Luciferous. There was a noted Bishop Lucifer of Cagliari in Sardinia in the 4th century, regarded locally as a saint.

Online Etymology Dictionary

Being a "light bringer" could be related to the Greek legend of Prometheus who stole the fire from heaven and gifted it to humanity.

See

Prometheus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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Desert Snake

Veteran Member
arthra said:
Looking at the etymology of "Lucifer" I found the following:

Old English Lucifer "Satan," also "morning star," from Latin Lucifer "morning star," literally "light-bringing," from lux (genitive lucis) "light" (see light (n.)) + ferre "carry" (see infer).

Belief that it was the proper name of Satan began with its use in Bible to translate Greek Phosphoros, which translates Hebrew Helel ben Shahar in Isaiah xiv:12 -- "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!" [KJV] Because of the mention of a fall from Heaven, the verse was interpreted by Christians as a reference to Satan, even though it is literally a reference to the King of Babylon (see Isaiah xiv:4).

Lucifer match "friction match" is from 1831. Adjectival forms include Luciferian, Luciferine, Luciferous. There was a noted Bishop Lucifer of Cagliari in Sardinia in the 4th century, regarded locally as a saint.

Online Etymology Dictionary

Being a "light bringer" could be related to the Greek legend of Prometheus who stole the fire from heaven and gifted it to humanity.

See

Prometheus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Click to expand...

I believe it to be speculation that the word, used in Hebrew, is the ''same'', as the title used for Jesus. In fact, somehow I doubt that xians would have traditionally done this, knowing the reference to a person or entity with a bad connotation attached. More likely, imo, the same word was used as a convenience of translation, in the Lucifer references, in the Bible.
 
EtuMalku

EtuMalku

Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
The term Lucifer didn’t even exist in the Biblical ages, the Old Testament was written primarily in Hebrew, so the word Lucifer could not have been in their language.

It was St. Jerome who placed the word Lucifer into the Bible . . .
Isaiah 14:12 according to the Vulgate translation:
"Et habemus firmiorem propheticum sermonem : cui benefacitis attendentes quasi lucernæ lucenti in caliginoso donec dies elucescat, et lucifer oriatur in cordibus vestries"

The Hebrew translation had the word helel in the place of Lucifer, or rather St. Jerome replaced the word helel with Lucifer. Helel means ‘shining one’.

In 382 AD, Pope Damasus I commissioned St. Jerome to write a revision of the old Latin translation of the Bible. This task was completed sometime during the 5th century AD, and eventually it was considered the official and definite Latin version of the Bible according to the Roman Catholic church. By the 13th century it was considered the versio vulgate – the common translation.

Morning Star
The earliest reference to a Morning Star is in the Phoenician/Canaan cosmology and is pictured as the god Attar who unsuccessfully tried to dethrone Baal as god of the Underworld. In another Mesopotamian myth the god Helel tries to overthrow the great god El. Eventually, these myths became the Sumerian story of Ishtar and Inanna's descent into the Underworld. Here Inanna is directly associated with the planet Venus.

Babylonian myth has the very first association to the concept of a 'fallen' deity due to Pride and its association with the " brilliancy of the morning star, which eclipses all other stars, but is not seen during the night". Ethana is driven by his pride to strive for the highest seat among the star‑gods on the northern mountain of the gods ... but was hurled down by the supreme ruler of the Babylonian Olympus.

☿
 
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