Praying to ancestors?

[Kristoffer]

Why does some buddhistic traditions pray to theire ancestors or older buddhas?
Does buddhists believe in praying? does they believe in a life after death?
Does the ancestors and old buddhas live in a spirit world, where they can communicate with living people?

 

[Twilight Hue]

I think you need to look at the fundamentals of Buddhism starting with the story of Siddhartha. Then check out the four noble truths and eightfold path as well as the triple gem. To give a short answer, to a slew of your threads, pretty much of it does not apply to what your asking.

Buddhism is directness and does not entertain things like prayer or ancester worship. There is veneration, which is probably where the confusion about prayer and worship typically starts.

Some people practice Buddhism while they remain in another religion or practice. It's beneficial not to confuse the nuances of either so as to think of something as identifiable as the other in respect to disguinishment.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I asked the exact same questions a couple weeks back. Weird.

Prayer to ancestors:

How I understand it is in most cultures, there is some reverence of ancestors. America we have tomb tombs, family meals, and anniversaries. Many people in the Philippines honor their ancestors with food offerings (as done in some African traditions). I assume Indian countries do this too as with Japan (where Nichiren Diashonin, a Buddhist monk, said never to forget who bore you).

I notice these customs and prayer are incorporated in that person's or family's faith. For example, my friend who is from the Philippines is Roman Catholic. They do not teach to pray to the ancestors; however, in her country giving offerings to passed on birthdays and anniversaries are very common. Likewise in Indian cultures and I'm sure other Asian cultures do so as well.

So, long story short, I don't see them conflicting. I pray and honor my ancestors and I am relearning the Buddha's teachings so I can follow them. It's, ancestor veneration, more of a cultural practice or custom rather than part of the belief. I don't know about Theravada, though.

Do Buddhist believe in praying?

Yes, very strongly. I can say safely all Buddhist sects believe in prayer. Most refer to it as chanting and mantras. The meaning is pretty much the same. Asking for blessings, honoring, worship, and/or whatever means of communication with oneself Buddha-nature, the Buddha, various other Buddhas that mirror The Buddha Himself and/or the like.

Does the ancestors and old Buddhas live in a spirit world, where they can communicate with living people?

I have to re-read the Sutras. I read (outside the Sutras) that Buddhas believe in reincarnation; but, it such a common stereotype associating Buddhism with reincarnation that I don't know if it is true. I was told it came from the Hindu; they believe in reincarnation.

No, I don't remember Buddha teaching about the spirit world. Rather, He was opposed to a lot of that type of thing "deities, demons, and so forth" of His day. If anything, our ancestors are still on this earth in spirit. Though I don't know how that relates to Buddhism well.

Also, I know the Buddha taught in metaphors when explaining about the human condition by using "spirits, dragon kings, demons, and heavenly angels" and so forth. I don't know if it is actually a metaphor or if there are actually these beings within the Buddhist teachings.

Why does some buddhistic traditions pray to theire ancestors or older buddhas?
Does buddhists believe in praying? does they believe in a life after death?
Does the ancestors and old buddhas live in a spirit world, where they can communicate with living people?

Some resources:

The Basics of Buddhism
Some are good guides. I rather depend on the Sutras; but, there are so many.

A Basic Buddhism Guide: 5 Minute Introduction

Vinaya Texts, Part I (SBE 13) - Mahâvagga - First Khandaka Four Noble Truths

The Buddha's Teachings

Afterlife and Buddhism

afterlife in mahayana? | ReligiousForums.com

Other

A Complete Buddhist Sutra Collection or Online Buddhist Sutras, Scriptures, Texts and Related Media, in Chinese, Sanskrit and English, for Free

Buddhist Sutra - Sigalovada Sutta (Lay person's guide "Sigalovada Sutta") I haven't read the Sutras in a while. Most of them I read so far are more for the Monks (how high beds should be, what to wear).

Nichiren Diashonin also talks about the ancestors and honoring the deceased. In the Lotus Sutra there are many Buddhas that The Buddha said will come after Him. So, these are good to keep in mind too. Mind you, He is from Japan and takes from His culture and Ti-en Tai sect point of view.

The Origin of the Service for Deceased Ancestors | WND I | Nichiren Buddhism Library The Origin of the Service for Deceased Ancestors

On Offerings for Deceased Ancestors | WND I | Nichiren Buddhism Library On Offerings for Deceased Ancestors

 

[GoodbyeDave]

I would suggest that Buddhism started as a philosophy, not a religion. The Buddha may have been an atheist, an agnostic, or a deist, but he was clearly no theist. Subsequently, his teaching was incorporated into religions. In Theravada, the original teaching was kept, although the worship of gods was added by many. In much of Mahayana, the practices were grafted onto the original local religions, which included ancestral cults. If you believe in reincarnation, then you can't have an ancestral cult. If you have an ancestral cult, you can't be a Buddhist in the exact sense that the Buddha was.

 

[Kristoffer]

Thx for good answers! I will look at the links!

Just to come with additional info, if anyone got any

 

[Vishvavajra]

Buddhism is practiced in many countries alongside native religious practices, which often include ancestor worship. It's not a Buddhist practice, strictly speaking, but it's not something that Buddhists are forbidden from doing. People in China, for example, may do Buddhist practices at one time and traditional Chinese religious practices at other times, without seeing it as a problem.

There's no sense in Buddhist though that dead ancestors are literally hanging around to help you, since the basic idea is that everything and everyone is always being reborn and changing from one thing to another, so it is generally said that after 72 hours or so after a person has died, they will have moved on, and there's no point in praying to them. But many people do it anyway. There is, however, a practice of feeding hungry ghosts, which helps to develop compassion for all beings, even if we can't see them.

The great Buddhist teachers of the past millennia and beyond are also gone, at least in the sense that they're not personally hanging around and watching us. However, there is the sense that bodhisattvas--people who make a vow to achieve Buddhahood for the salvation of all beings, no matter how many lifetimes it takes--manage to benefit the world across lifetimes. They cultivate powerful merit and positive karmic tendencies that end up being larger than a single mortal human life and can continue to benefit people indefinitely, helping them to follow the path. Those same tendencies will continue to appear again and again through time until all beings are liberated. The founder of the religion is regarded as a manifestation of such a being. And even if he is not here in body anymore, he has left a legacy that still inspires people today. To Buddhists, existing in the realm of the mind is not a lesser state than existing in the physical realm--it might even be more powerful in the long run.

Buddhists pray to Buddhas, bodhisattvas, and sometimes nobody in particular. Prayers consist of asking for help along the path, as well as voicing benevolent intentions towards others. You might pray for help in being more kind and loving towards others, or for the strength to fulfill you vows. Or you might pray that the people in your life be happy, healthy, and safe--even the ones that bother you. Or you might pray that someone else receive the benefits of your practice, so that they can achieve liberation more quickly. Praying in this way generates good mental habits. Prayer isn't magic, and by itself it doesn't change the world, but it can change us, and when we change ourselves we do change the world.

Unlike the gods of most religions, Buddhas and bodhisattvas are unconditionally loving and desire nothing other than that every sentient being should be delivered from suffering and pain. They are not ultimately separate from us: they are the part of us that manifests Awakened Mind in the world, the part that yearns for an end to vexations and that loves everyone unconditionally, including ourselves. They also remind us that liberation is possible, so that we will have faith to continue on the path even when it is hard. That is why we often place images of them around the practice space, so when we see them we will be encouraged and remember what is important.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

If you believe in reincarnation, then you can't have an ancestral cult. If you have an ancestral cult, you can't be a Buddhist in the exact sense that the Buddha was.

How so? Ancestral veneration is a cultural practice not a religion or cult in itself. A lot of cultures from many faiths have some form of ancestral veneration. The Buddha never taught not to honor one's ancestors. He is Indian, so I assume He has cultural practices associating with honoring His ancestors too. He was against the deities and exertoric among other practices of His day as they do not lead one to enlightenment.

As for reincarnation, I don't know the exact definition since there are so many, but I see it as my dying and reincarnating to be part of my family who are still alive. We are a part of each other. I never read so far in the Sutras that your ancestors being a part of you and you them is against the Buddha's teachings.

What I do find, on the other hand, is The Buddha didn't teach about the "spirit world" as far as I know. In some Japense Buddhist sects, there is the Avichi hell... but I have to look up the history of it within the Lotus Sutra itself.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Well said.

Buddhism is practiced in many countries alongside native religious practices, which often include ancestor worship. It's not a Buddhist practice, strictly speaking, but it's not something that Buddhists are forbidden from doing. People in China, for example, may do Buddhist practices at one time and traditional Chinese religious practices at other times, without seeing it as a problem.

There's no sense in Buddhist though that dead ancestors are literally hanging around to help you, since the basic idea is that everything and everyone is always being reborn and changing from one thing to another, so it is generally said that after 72 hours or so after a person has died, they will have moved on, and there's no point in praying to them. But many people do it anyway. There is, however, a practice of feeding hungry ghosts, which helps to develop compassion for all beings, even if we can't see them.

The great Buddhist teachers of the past millennia and beyond are also gone, at least in the sense that they're not personally hanging around and watching us. However, there is the sense that bodhisattvas--people who make a vow to achieve Buddhahood for the salvation of all beings, no matter how many lifetimes it takes--manage to benefit the world across lifetimes. They cultivate powerful merit and positive karmic tendencies that end up being larger than a single mortal human life and can continue to benefit people indefinitely, helping them to follow the path. Those same tendencies will continue to appear again and again through time until all beings are liberated. The founder of the religion is regarded as a manifestation of such a being. And even if he is not here in body anymore, he has left a legacy that still inspires people today. To Buddhists, existing in the realm of the mind is not a lesser state than existing in the physical realm--it might even be more powerful in the long run.

Buddhists pray to Buddhas, bodhisattvas, and sometimes nobody in particular. Prayers consist of asking for help along the path, as well as voicing benevolent intentions towards others. You might pray for help in being more kind and loving towards others, or for the strength to fulfill you vows. Or you might pray that the people in your life be happy, healthy, and safe--even the ones that bother you. Or you might pray that someone else receive the benefits of your practice, so that they can achieve liberation more quickly. Praying in this way generates good mental habits. Prayer isn't magic, and by itself it doesn't change the world, but it can change us, and when we change ourselves we do change the world.

Unlike the gods of most religions, Buddhas and bodhisattvas are unconditionally loving and desire nothing other than that every sentient being should be delivered from suffering and pain. They are not ultimately separate from us: they are the part of us that manifests Awakened Mind in the world, the part that yearns for an end to vexations and that loves everyone unconditionally, including ourselves. They also remind us that liberation is possible, so that we will have faith to continue on the path even when it is hard. That is why we often place images of them around the practice space, so when we see them we will be encouraged and remember what is important.

 

[Vishvavajra]

What I do find, on the other hand, is The Buddha didn't teach about the "spirit world" as far as I know. In some Japense Buddhist sects, there is the Avichi hell... but I have to look up the history of it within the Lotus Sutra itself.

Buddhist scriptures reference many of the mythical beings that people believed in at the time, but belief in those beings is not really the point of the Dharma.

As for other realms, according to one popular Buddhist theory, different beings experience existence in the form of six different realms, including the heavenly, the hellish, and everything in between. Avici is the lowest of the hell realms, one from which it's practically impossible to ever escape--but notice that it tends to come up in terms of the Buddha's ability to save even those hopeless people.

Note also that Buddhist mythological realms are ways of depicting the karmic consequences of certain states of mind; they're not literally places, but rather ways of perceiving existence that result when the mind cllings to certain tendencies. For example, those who cling to greed as a way of achieving happiness will soon find themselves living in the realm of the hungry ghosts, wherein all of the people have big bellies and tiny throats and can never feel satisfied, no matter how much they eat. The point of this myth is not to make people believe that there really are big-bellied, small-throated ghosts walking around; it's to illustrate the way in which negative mental habits color how people understand their existence and can make people more unhappy than they were before.

If that sounds like a rationalizing interpretation, it's important to understand that Buddhist tradition has never drawn a line between the literal and the metaphorical, since our subjective perception of the world is all we really know. So there's no meaningful difference between feeling like a hungry ghost and actually being one.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Hm. Thank you for the clarification. I know when I read Nichiren's writings, he talks about the different levels of "hell" up until Avici. Unfortunately, while reading the Lotus Sutra, I can't understand everything because it's so heavily in its language.

If that sounds like a rationalizing interpretation, it's important to understand that Buddhist tradition has never drawn a line between the literal and the metaphorical, since our subjective perception of the world is all we really know. So there's no meaningful difference between feeling like a hungry ghost and actually being one.

Quite different from Western thought, at least in America it seems.

 

[GoodbyeDave]

Ancestral veneration is a cultural practice not a religion or cult in itself. A lot of cultures from many faiths have some form of ancestral veneration.

And what is necessary for such a practice to make sense? Professor Jordan Paper, a sinologist and a convert to Chinese religion, wrote "The fortunes of the family are dependent on the well-being of the dead members of the family ... unless the dead are pleased, they will not care to help the family..." The ancestral cult is practical, like the cult of the gods. As a character in a play of Aristophanes said of the Greek practice, "we ask them to send us good things". If the souls of your ancestors are reincarnated, then how are they aware of you, let alone able to benefit you? If I were the reincarnation of someone who lived a century ago, how could I respond to their descendants if they venerated me when I am unaware they're doing it?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Thats a good question and one I can answer in full when Im at a computer this evening. My practice is pure veneration. I believe that my ancestors and my recently passed relatives are talking through me (reincarnated if you like). I am a part of them and they me. In a "scientific" views I can dumb it down to basic psychology and syncronicities in life. A lot of us keep our family harelums (sorry on phone no spell check) because we feel we are closer to them through the objects, rituals, and prayers that run through the family. So we know they are speaking to us through the objects, practices, and prayers we send them.

I havnt started giving offerings until almost recently. I was told that the dead (or living spirits rather) are pleased by fruits and wine. I give my grandmother food our family love. I think you can relate it to feelings you get from affirmations (Ill say rather than prayer).

It is similar to visiting a grave yard of a passed relatve. Have you done that before? Pay respects to a loved one? You dont neex to "know" that your loved one is still alive; but that gratitude and respect "in itself" bypasses any need for evidence of their existence.

I guess I said a lot here. But Ill think about it some more.

And what is necessarye. for such a practice to make sense? Professor Jordan Paper, a sinologist and a convert to Chinese religion, wrote "The fortunes of the family are dependent on the well-being of the dead members of the family ... unless the dead are pleased, they will not care to help the family..." The ancestral cult is practical, like the cult of the gods. As a character in a play of Aristophanes said of the Greek practice, "we ask them to send us good things". If the souls of your ancestors are reincarnated, then how are they aware of you, let alone able to benefit you? If I were the reincarnation of someone who lived a century ago, how could I respond to their descendants if they venerated me when I am unaware they're doing it?

 

[Vishvavajra]

And what is necessary for such a practice to make sense? Professor Jordan Paper, a sinologist and a convert to Chinese religion, wrote "The fortunes of the family are dependent on the well-being of the dead members of the family ... unless the dead are pleased, they will not care to help the family..." The ancestral cult is practical, like the cult of the gods. As a character in a play of Aristophanes said of the Greek practice, "we ask them to send us good things". If the souls of your ancestors are reincarnated, then how are they aware of you, let alone able to benefit you? If I were the reincarnation of someone who lived a century ago, how could I respond to their descendants if they venerated me when I am unaware they're doing it?

Never underestimate people's ability to believe multiple totally contradictory things simultaneously.