Prediction: How Progressive Christians Will Save Jesus

[joe1776]

Feeling unconditional love does not mean enabled evil, does it? You may love your children whether saint or sinner, but if you knew one was a serial killer would you turn them in or let them keep on killing unsuspecting victims without taking steps to prevent further harm? I think love involves justice, protection of the innocent and taking a stand against harmful, evil behavior.
God does love unconditional, but I don't see such love as allowing people to persist in their evil and harm behaviors for eternity.

Unconditional love doesn't require sanctioning wrongdoing. Ted Kaczynski's brother got authorities to take the death penalty off the table before turning him in as the Unabomber.

On the other hand, I don't regard the Christian God's love as unconditional since He'd allow me to suffer in Hell for an eternity since I can't accept the Christian doctrine on faith. That's an unjust god, IMO.

 

[stvdv]

How do we show the rest of Christianity that this is possible? That we don't have to be at odds with our God given intelligence and the facts of what has actually happened in God's creation?

Truth will set us free they say. Knowledge is easy available now we have the internet. Last 20 years lots of changes. Imagine 100 more years. Sooner would be nice though.

 

[sealchan]

Are you saying that it's only a metaphor for you or that most Christians see it that way?

That is my own point of view. I think that probably a very large percentage of Christians see Hell as literal post death experience. I would say that that is an unfortunate belief based on a common (and therefore reasonable) interpretation of the Bible.

 

[sealchan]

Truth will set us free they say. Knowledge is easy available now we have the internet. Last 20 years lots of changes. Imagine 100 more years. Sooner would be nice though.

I think that the greatest spiritual texts which combine teaching and story can be read on many levels. And as we grow from being children to adults we become capable of reading scripture on more and more levels.

What is needed is for pastors and preachers to teach what, apparently, they know. They tend, as I have heard, to teach at the more childish level of literalism and fire and brimstone even when they were trained to understand more. How do we allow the Word to work for those in the way that they need it to without disparaging the Church's spiritual children?

 

[joe1776]

That is my own point of view. I think that probably a very large percentage of Christians see Hell as literal post death experience. I would say that that is an unfortunate belief based on a common (and therefore reasonable) interpretation of the Bible.

Okay, I agree. That's the traditional belief that will make it difficult for progressive Christians to claim that Jesus loves unconditionally while the Christian God's love is conditioned upon acceptance of the Christian doctrine -- and you will suffer in Hell for eternity if you don't accept it.

 

[InChrist]

Unconditional love doesn't require sanctioning wrongdoing. Ted Kaczynski's brother got authorities to take the death penalty off the table before turning him in as the Unabomber.

On the other hand, I don't regard the Christian God's love as unconditional since He'd allow me to suffer in Hell for an eternity since I can't accept the Christian doctrine on faith. That's an unjust god, IMO.

Except the gospel message is that all are welcome into a glorious eternity. Those who end up in hell are there because they refuse the invitation, not because God wants them there, and their suffering is self-inflicted.

 

[joe1776]

I think that the greatest spiritual texts which combine teaching and story can be read on many levels. And as we grow from being children to adults we become capable of reading scripture on more and more levels.

What is needed is for pastors and preachers to teach what, apparently, they know. They tend, as I have heard, to teach at the more childish level of literalism and fire and brimstone even when they were trained to understand more. How do we allow the Word to work for those in the way that they need it to without disparaging the Church's spiritual children?

You're right -- but the pastors and preachers face a dilemma. Their preaching was intended to persuade unsophisticated minds -- and it worked for centuries. Now, they face a new, more sophisticated, audience and they're stuck with the old message.

 

[joe1776]

Except the gospel message is that all are welcome into a glorious eternity. Those who end up in hell are there because they refuse the invitation, not because God wants them there, and their suffering is self-inflicted.

Is that how you justify the vengeance of a god that will allow me to suffer for an eternity? Because I made the wrong choice?

I'm not a child. I can't be manipulated by reward and punishment schemes: Heaven (reward) Hell (punishment).

 

[sealchan]

Except the gospel message is that all are welcome into a glorious eternity. Those who end up in hell are there because they refuse the invitation, not because God wants them there, and their suffering is self-inflicted.

Yeah, its like hey dude, come and join us, we'll party forever...but if you don't, well you'll burn in hell...

Really? This is emotional abuse coming from an authority figure.

At the very least that is total stranger danger.

 

[InChrist]

Is that how you justify the vengeance of a god that will allow me to suffer for an eternity? Because I made the wrong choice?

I'm not a child. I can't be manipulated by reward and punishment schemes: Heaven (reward) Hell (punishment).

What do you want...God to force you into heaven? He is not treating, manipulating, or forcing you as a tyrant might do to a child. He desires a relationship based on love freely reciprocated and is treating you as a being with your own volition.

 

[InChrist]

Yeah, its like hey dude, come and join us, we'll party forever...but if you don't, well you'll burn in hell...

Really? This is emotional abuse coming from an authority figure.

At the very least that is total stranger danger.

No, it's not like that. It's that God is the sustainer and giver of life and all that is good and beautiful. You may as well refuse air and feel the pain you inflict on yourself. Existence apart from God will be void of all goodness and it will be self-inflicted pain to be away from the only Source.

 

[Deeje]

Traditional Christianity is dying. But there's a progressive movement within it that I think has a good chance to salvage something worthwhile from the traditional version.

With some careful tweaking, Jesus can be presented as an exemplar, what the human character ought to be, useful for Christians and non-Christians, whether he was fictional or not.

Jesus will have to love unconditionally because conditional love (I will love you if you please me) is a lesser kind of love that arrogant people offer as a manipulative device to coerce compliance with their wishes.....


What are your thoughts on this topic?

Well the topic of this thread got my attention...but the content just made me laugh. Jesus needs to be carefully "tweaked"???
I'm sure he find that as amusing as I do.

Why would anyone think that God and his Christ would put up with so much human rot up to this point in time, only to become all forgiving sops who just embrace even those who have no love for them, or for their fellowman....or even for the earth that is their only home? Does that mean no accountability? Where do we ever see such a thing in human experience? We are always accountable to someone for what we do....why not God?

Why would God have to lower his standards to accommodate human failure? It is we who need to come up to God's standards, not the other way around.

The Creator sets the rules and expects us to obey them. The rules are there to sort the "sheep" from the "goats". By our own conduct we tell God which description we fit. The "sheep" are rewarded with life for their efforts to remain obedient (at times very difficult) but the "goats" make no effort at all, and now it seems they are trying to broaden the 'easy road' even further that it already is. (Matthew 7:13-14) Its a dead end street however.

Sorry to disillusion you folks....but you're dreaming if you think God has any obligation to us whatsoever if we fail to obey his laws and apply his principles in our life. God doesn't need us...it is we who need him. If we can get that basic truth through our thick skulls, we might just be motivated to pull our socks up and become responsible for our own actions. I know that's a hard call for some people.....the degree of difficulty determines the amount of effort. The reward is well worth it IMO. Just don't kid yourselves...OK?

 

[Riders]

Jesus can't be presented as a pacifist. Consider this rabid dog analogy: We see a rabid dog in the street and recognize it as a danger both to human and animal life, so we have to kill it. We regret that the killing was necessary. The only thing we hate is our ignorance in not knowing how to cure rabies. The killing was an act of love for humanity and for other animals. Jesus would see the necessary killing of dangerous human beings in self-defense as ultimately an act of love for humanity.

This is where your way off base.This is more of a description of the conservative Evangelical then a liberal and actually I don't know of any Christians who want to kill anyone and I don't see that happening especially with the Progressive Christian movement.

So I am not sure what that had to do with progressive Christians or a progressive Jesus.

That being said, I do think the Christian church is losing people. Part of that is the role politics has played and the fact that churches have involved themselves so heavily with politicians and also that the church is not accepting or loving enough.

I would hope that Universal type Christian churches like the Quakers who are very peaceful would become more popular and the UU church. I do know more people have joined the UU church sense the whole thing with Trump being the house has happened.

Church membership has gone down but I don't know that I see that as a future that would predict Christianity dieing off, but I do think some will become more liberal and hopefully more peaceful.

I am planning on visiting the Quakers next month.

 

[Riders]

Well the topic of this thread got my attention...but the content just made me laugh. Jesus needs to be carefully "tweaked"???
I'm sure he find that as amusing as I do.

Why would anyone think that God and his Christ would put up with so much human rot up to this point in time, only to become all forgiving sops who just embrace even those who have no love for them, or for their fellowman....or even for the earth that is their only home? Does that mean no accountability? Where do we ever see such a thing in human experience? We are always accountable to someone for what we do....why not God?

Why would God have to lower his standards to accommodate human failure? It is we who need to come up to God's standards, not the other way around.

The Creator sets the rules and expects us to obey them. The rules are there to sort the "sheep" from the "goats". By our own conduct we tell God which description we fit. The "sheep" are rewarded with life for their efforts to remain obedient (at times very difficult) but the "goats" make no effort at all, and now it seems they are trying to broaden the 'easy road' even further that it already is. (Matthew 7:13-14) Its a dead end street however.

Sorry to disillusion you folks....but you're dreaming if you think God has any obligation to us whatsoever if we fail to obey his laws and apply his principles in our life. God doesn't need us...it is we who need him. If we can get that basic truth through our thick skulls, we might just be motivated to pull our socks up and become responsible for our own actions. I know that's a hard call for some people.....the degree of difficulty determines the amount of effort. The reward is well worth it IMO. Just don't kid yourselves...OK?

But the conservative Evangelical churches numbers are going down not up, Membership is down in your church.

 

[sojourner]

Dunno about that.

If there is a strong progressive effort to abandon Hell and a vengeful God capable of only conditional love; and if there is the unwillingness to portray Jesus as anything but a pacifist, I've missed both movements.

Oh, they’re out there.

 

[stvdv]

1): I think that the greatest spiritual texts which combine teaching and story can be read on many levels.
2): And as we grow from being children to adults we become capable of reading scripture on more and more levels.

1): Brainwashed Christians cannot read any level except they are brainwashed with "You are a sinner AND go to Hell UNLESS you follow Jesus"

A person I see as 3: a)the one others think they are + b)the one they think they are + c)the one they really are
a)Priest tells you "you are a sinner" --> b)You think "I am a sinner" --> c)Forget about ever knowing who you really are ("sinner/Hell" tactic is Black Magic at it's worst)

People get paralized when telling them "you are a sinner AND go to Hell UNLESS you believe in Jesus".
This is the perfect recipe to make sure they will never think for themselves again.

Psychology know this !!!
Why does the government allow + promotes this???
Why does the Church preach this???
Why do priests teach this???

Solve these first

Then step 2):

 

[Deeje]

I do think the Christian church is losing people. Part of that is the role politics has played and the fact that churches have involved themselves so heavily with politicians and also that the church is not accepting or loving enough.

Politics and religion is an unholy alliance. Christ's followers were to be no part of this world.....especially with regard to its rulership.
Jesus said.....“My Kingdom is no part of this world. If my Kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be handed over to the Jews. But as it is, my Kingdom is not from this source.” (John 18:36)

Once a person or a church claiming to be Christian gets enmeshed in politics, they cease to be Christians....and for a very good reason. (1 John 5:19)

But the conservative Evangelical churches numbers are going down not up.

But it is inevitable that numbers will go down...the churches today don't have God's blessing because none of them are following his commandments. None of them are living up to their claim to be Christians. Jesus said that "few" are actually on the cramped and narrow road to life. (Matthew 7:13-14) It was to be expected. (Matthew 7:21-23)

Membership is down in your church

Last time I looked, the numbers in my own faith have continued to increase, and not by people having their babies christened. We are all baptized ministers of God's word. Jesus told us to be preachers...so that is what we do in every nation on earth where we are active. In nations where our work is banned, we still preach...very quietly.

Besides, it isn't about the quantity...its about the quality. Jesus knew that. Very few out of the nation of Israel became his disciples, but that was OK...he got the very best out of that nation, and later his apostles turned to the Gentile nations to finish his work. (Acts 15:14)

 

[stvdv]

3): What is needed is for pastors and preachers to teach what, apparently, they know.
4): They tend, as I have heard, to teach at the more childish level of literalism and fire and brimstone even when they were trained to understand more.

3): I wonder what they know. Or let me be more precise. Their SQ (Spiritual Quotient) is below minimum. A child knows "you are a sinner" + "Hell" are bad to be told.
4): They seem not trained to understand more. They might have been trained how to control and keep the Christian doctrine running. That is what their actions show.

I am good at math: 1+2=3
1: Priests know more but they don't teach it like you say.
2: They teach childish level. I wish they were. Every teacher knows how destructive it is to tell a child "you are a sinner", "you go to hell". This is "emotional blackmail" + "Black Magic(voodoo)"
3: They teach demonic level (I don't write here IMHO).

 

[stvdv]

5): How do we allow the Word to work for those in the way that they need it to without disparaging the Church's spiritual children?

I do not fully understand what you try to say here. "disparaging the Church's spiritual children". You must be saying that the spiritual children in this context are the priests who share the "untruth". Because "How we allow the Word to work for those in the way that they need" is simple. Just tell them the truth "You are not a sinner and Hell does not exist". Telling them "you are a sinner" and "Hell unless Jesus", is disparaging these innocent children in need.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Okay, I agree. That's the traditional belief that will make it difficult for progressive Christians to claim that Jesus loves unconditionally while the Christian God's love is conditioned upon acceptance of the Christian doctrine - and you will suffer in Hell for eternity if you don't accept it.

The Loving God
"Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you! And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? No, you will be thrown down to Hades! For if the miracles done among you had been done in Sodom, it would have continued to this day. But I tell you, it will be more bearable for the region of Sodom on the day of judgment than for you!"

.. these innocent children in need.

These are not children. They are grown up man and women. And they have started to use their brains, that is why they see the big-hole.