Prediction: How Progressive Christians Will Save Jesus

[pearl]

Traditional Christianity is dying.

There will always be a remnant guided by the Holy Spirit and from this remnant Christianity will survive.

Jesus can be presented as an exemplar

He already is, showing us how to be perfectly human, not humanly perfect.

Jesus will have to love unconditionally

He already does, he loves you before, during and after your sin.

Jesus won't be presented as a front man for an unjust, vengeful god that loves conditionally (accept the Christian doctrine or you will go to Hell). Instead, Jesus will offer an example for people who strive to become better human beings as their only form of worship.

There is another model which unfortunately the majority of Christians do not accept, that instead of a 'front man' Jesus was the Creator's desire for solidarity with his creatures. The Incarnation would have been if man had not sinned. In this model Jesus is God's love made visible.

Jesus would see the necessary killing of dangerous human beings in self-defense as ultimately an act of love for humanity.

I don't think so.

Thus, progressive Christians will advocate quarantine and not punishment for offenders

From the 'whatsoever you do....' 'when did you visit me in prison'.

 

[Pudding]

Traditional Christianity is dying. But there's a progressive movement within it that I think has a good chance to salvage something worthwhile from the traditional version.

With some careful tweaking, Jesus can be presented as an exemplar, what the human character ought to be, useful for Christians and non-Christians, whether he was fictional or not.

Jesus will have to love unconditionally because conditional love (I will love you if you please me) is a lesser kind of love that arrogant people offer as a manipulative device to coerce compliance with their wishes.

Jesus won't be presented as a front man for an unjust, vengeful god that loves conditionally (accept the Christian doctrine or you will go to Hell). Instead, Jesus will offer an example for people who strive to become better human beings as their only form of worship.

That reformation might needs extensive effort to modify the Bible. Remove all the bad but good teachings; thoroughly rewrite the Bible to speak what it intends to convey in a straight forward and modern language manner; avoid any ambiguity; made it clear if any passages is not to be read literally and unambiguously explain what they actually mean in the footnote.

What is the precise goal this new denomination of Christianity intended to achieve?
What is the precise method it use to achieve its goal?
What is the precise requirement to qualify "Jesus have been save by this new denomination"?

Jesus can't be presented as a pacifist. Consider this rabid dog analogy: We see a rabid dog in the street and recognize it as a danger both to human and animal life, so we have to kill it. We regret that the killing was necessary. The only thing we hate is our ignorance in not knowing how to cure rabies. The killing was an act of love for humanity and for other animals. Jesus would see the necessary killing of dangerous human beings in self-defense as ultimately an act of love for humanity.

The new denomination need to lay out all the precise requirements how they qualify a creature to be dangerous which they think they have no choice but to kill those dangerous creatures, so all people who want to thoroughly examine those requirements can do so.

Do the new denomination also intend to policy their versions of self-defence law into the country or globally and upon non-member of their religion?

Jesus would hate the sin but love the sinner. Consequently, he would see the wrongdoer as sick not evil. Thus, progressive Christians will advocate quarantine and not punishment for offenders. For example, child molesters might be sent to an adult-only town for life or until cured, even on a mild first offense. There, they could live and work normally but without access to children. The result would be a safer world for children.

Please lay out the complete list of crimes if you suggest they should be exempt from punishment.

Do paedophile who voilentlly sexually abuse 100+ children also be exempt from punishment? What is the line and qualification whether or not an offender should be exempt from punishment?

What kind of towns do we use to respectively quarantine thiefs, drunk driver, spy, con artist fraud, forger, briber, blackmailer, burglar, kidnapper, terrorist, traitor, arsonist, assassin, bomber, murderers and genociders...etc?

 

[Kirran]

Flourishing religious movements are not born as social engineering tools!

 

[joe1776]

Well, there's a lot of language in it about how Jesus will be like X, would have to be like Y, etc. When actually, rather than tweaking for ideological reasons there are legitimate, Christ-centred traditions already thriving which enjoin much of what you say.

You claimed that unconditional love is a Christian tradition. I don't understand how one makes sense of Salvation if there's no Hell to be saved from; and if Hell exists, how can God's love be unconditional?

So, I can't accept your claim but a sound, reasoned argument would change my mind if you have one.

 

[Kirran]

You claimed that unconditional love is a Christian tradition. I don't understand how one makes sense of Salvation if there's no Hell to be saved from; and if Hell exists, how can God's love be unconditional?

So, I can't accept your claim but a sound, reasoned argument would change my mind if you have one.

Well there is absolutely in Christianity stuff like God is Love, Love is the sum of the law, etc - that stuff is to many people primary, and any theological argument regarding love secondary to that.

 

[joe1776]

That reformation might needs extensive effort to modify the Bible. Remove all the bad but good teachings; thoroughly rewrite the Bible to speak what it intends to convey in a straight forward and modern language manner; avoid any ambiguity; made it clear if any passages is not to be read literally and unambiguously explain what they actually mean in the footnote.

What is the precise goal this new denomination of Christianity intended to achieve?
What is the precise method it use to achieve its goal?
What is the precise requirement to qualify "Jesus have been save by this new denomination"?


The new denomination need to lay out all the precise requirements how they qualify a creature to be dangerous which they think they have no choice but to kill those dangerous creatures, so all people who want to thoroughly examine those requirements can do so.

Do the new denomination also intend to policy their versions of self-defence law into the country or globally and upon non-member of their religion?


Please lay out the complete list of crimes if you suggest they should be exempt from punishment.

Do paedophile who voilentlly sexually abuse 100+ children also be exempt from punishment? What is the line and qualification whether or not an offender should be exempt from punishment?

What kind of towns do we use to respectively quarantine thiefs, drunk driver, spy, con artist fraud, forger, briber, blackmailer, burglar, kidnapper, terrorist, traitor, arsonist, assassin, bomber, murderers and genociders...etc?

Depending on the edition, the Bible contains between 600 thousand to 800 thousand words. The meaning of most of the passages is not clear. So, within reason, one might find support for any position without rewriting the Bible.

The goal, as I stated in the OP, is to offer Jesus as an exemplar of human character for Christians and non-Christians.

You ask questions that go beyond the scope of my OP. I've given them thought and I could answer them but the answers would only take the discussion off into different directions, so I'll pass.

 

[joe1776]

Well there is absolutely in Christianity stuff like God is Love, Love is the sum of the law, etc - that stuff is to many people primary, and any theological argument regarding love secondary to that.

I can't find it now, but a Catholic bishop had a blog online in which he claimed that God's love is unconditional. He began by admitting that scripture seemed to deny it but then he created a parable which effectively turned conditional into unconditional by putting the blame on the receiver of the love. He then added that God must even love the souls in Hell since he sustains them.

 

[joe1776]

He already is, showing us how to be perfectly human, not humanly perfect.

Most Christians seem to regard Christ as a pacifist. Yet, most Christians are not pacifists. How do you explain the disconnect?

He already does, he loves you before, during and after your sin.

Why then is he complicit in sending me, a non-Christian to Hell? That's not my idea of love.

 

[Kirran]

I can't find it now, but a Catholic bishop had a blog online in which he claimed that God's love is unconditional. He began by admitting that scripture seemed to deny it but then he created a parable which effectively turned conditional into unconditional by putting the blame on the receiver of the love. He then added that God must even love the souls in Hell since he sustains them.

Cor, you get all sorts huh?

 

[joe1776]

Flourishing religious movements are not born as social engineering tools!

The flourishing religious movements of the past were born by manipulating naive minds using reward and punishment. Heaven (reward) and Hell (punishment) are powerful tools for coercion.

Heaven and Hell did double duty by making the faithful members of an elite group favored by God -- which makes a strong appeal to the arrogant side of human nature.

But those methods have become passe in today's more sophisticated world.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Traditional Christianity is dying. But there's a progressive movement within it that I think has a good chance to salvage something worthwhile from the traditional version.

With some careful tweaking, Jesus can be presented as an exemplar, what the human character ought to be, useful for Christians and non-Christians, whether he was fictional or not.

Jesus will have to love unconditionally because conditional love (I will love you if you please me) is a lesser kind of love that arrogant people offer as a manipulative device to coerce compliance with their wishes.

Jesus won't be presented as a front man for an unjust, vengeful god that loves conditionally (accept the Christian doctrine or you will go to Hell). Instead, Jesus will offer an example for people who strive to become better human beings as their only form of worship.

Jesus can't be presented as a pacifist. Consider this rabid dog analogy: We see a rabid dog in the street and recognize it as a danger both to human and animal life, so we have to kill it. We regret that the killing was necessary. The only thing we hate is our ignorance in not knowing how to cure rabies. The killing was an act of love for humanity and for other animals. Jesus would see the necessary killing of dangerous human beings in self-defense as ultimately an act of love for humanity.

Jesus would hate the sin but love the sinner. Consequently, he would see the wrongdoer as sick not evil. Thus, progressive Christians will advocate quarantine and not punishment for offenders. For example, child molesters might be sent to an adult-only town for life or until cured, even on a mild first offense. There, they could live and work normally but without access to children. The result would be a safer world for children.

What are your thoughts on this topic?

Traditional Christianity is the opposite of dying in many places worldwide. In the West, it may have hit its peak and so is adjusting (many people I witness to tell me they are already Christians).

I think Jesus's statement that "it's better to drown in the ocean than harm a child" is a clear indicator that Jesus finds paedophiles as evil as they are "ill".

 

[Kirran]

The flourishing religious movements of the past were born by manipulating naive minds using reward and punishment. Heaven (reward) and Hell (punishment) are powerful tools for coercion.

Heaven and Hell did double duty by making the faithful members of an elite group favored by God -- which makes a strong appeal to the arrogant side of human nature.

But those methods have become passe in today's more sophisticated world.

You reckon? I don't feel that faiths born out of such cynicism would have the power to draw people.

 

[pearl]

Mot Christians seem to regard Christ as a pacifist. Yet, most Christians are not pacifists. How do you explain the disconnect?

I guess, at least at times, we are Pharisees, 'do as I say, not as I do'. Our actions betray what we profess.

Why then is he complicit in sending me, a non-Christian to Hell? That's not my idea of love.

We make that judgment upon ourselves through our chosen action or non-action.

 

[joe1776]

You reckon? I don't feel that faiths born out of such cynicism would have the power to draw people.

Reward and punishment are the basic motivators in human nature. The pain (punishment) and pleasure (reward) functions of our brain are key to our survival.

Reward alone motivates. Punishment alone motivates. But the two combined are the most powerful. Marlon Brando, in the Godfather film called it making "...the offer they can't refuse."

 

[joe1776]

We make that judgment upon ourselves through our chosen action or non-action.

Nope. That doesn't work. Unconditional love is unconditional. It isn't conditioned on the behavior of the one to be loved.

 

[Kirran]

Reward and punishment are the basic motivators in human nature. The pain (punishment) and pleasure (reward) functions of our brain are key to our survival.

Reward alone motivates. Punishment alone motivates. But the two combined are the most powerful. Marlon Brando, in the Godfather film called it "The offer they can't refuse."

Well, maybe so. But that doesn't mean people are gonna all buy into some manufactured religion. People join a tradition because they believe it's true, and even more importantly feel it is true. People followed Jesus, and then followed his followers, and their followers, because there was genuine and real power there, they felt the truth of his teachings and his presence and so on. That energy is needed to kick things off.

 

[pearl]

He then added that God must even love the souls in Hell since he sustains them.

I don't know what bishop you refer to but I remember reading similar from a Catholic theologian at Catholic college;


God loves absolutely. Not to be loved by God is not to be damned, it is simply not to be. The opposite of being loved by God is not damnation, it is nonexistence. Saint Thomas Aquinas raised the question 'If God is everywhere, is God in hell? answering yes he asks what is God doing hell and answers loving the damned.

From God's point of view there is no difference between Mary and Satan, God loves both perfectly. Another Catholic theologian, there is 'grace at the roots of the world, the universe is rooted in grace. It exists because it is loved absolutely.

 

[sealchan]

No, it's not like that. It's that God is the sustainer and giver of life and all that is good and beautiful. You may as well refuse air and feel the pain you inflict on yourself. Existence apart from God will be void of all goodness and it will be self-inflicted pain to be away from the only Source.

I understand that God must be the God of reality and if someone "chooses" the wrong path they will literally walk through a living Hell maybe one that will last the rest of their life. Believers and non-believers can see the truth of this.

But to make a choice and then be confined to Hell for eternity in an afterlife...that cannot be seen to influence a person with a more or less clear conscience and strong sense of self-responsibility. Its immoral to such a person. Its even emotionally and psychologically abusive to children.

 

[sealchan]

Reward and punishment are strong motivators, yes...but when one achieves a certain level of self-confidence, sense of communal justice and acceptance of suffering for the sake of justice, one is no longer bound to a simplistic reward and punishment mentality. In fact, ironically, those who know Christ should no longer fear such threats as they have the bliss of the Holy Spirit to sustain them when they do what they know is right in the face of suffering.

The great irony is that reward and punishment is made an eternal condition in the teachings of many Christians for those who should need it the least if they truly know and have accepted Christ.

It is, perhaps, the difference between a lower and higher understanding of the Word. Maybe some need the more abusive language to understand and choose the right path.

 

[joe1776]

I don't know what bishop you refer to but I remember reading similar from a Catholic theologian at Catholic college;


God loves absolutely. Not to be loved by God is not to be damned, it is simply not to be. The opposite of being loved by God is not damnation, it is nonexistence. Saint Thomas Aquinas raised the question 'If God is everywhere, is God in hell? answering yes he asks what is God doing hell and answers loving the damned.

From God's point of view there is no difference between Mary and Satan, God loves both perfectly. Another Catholic theologian, there is 'grace at the roots of the world, the universe is rooted in grace. It exists because it is loved absolutely.

I am only able to understand love in human terms. I understand unconditional love because I love my children unconditionally. I don't understand the absolute love you write about or how not to love absolutely on God's part would deny existence. I'm not sure how human theologians came up with that as being in God's nature.

I can understand how punishing someone as instruction would be an act of love. But having someone suffer eternal punishment for not accepting a religious doctrine would be criminally unjust. I don't believe a Loving Creator would be so unjust. I think it is far more likely that humans created Hell to act as the punishment in the reward and punishment manipulation of naive minds.