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Presuppositionalism vs. Parsimony

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
Presuppositionalism is a blanket term for a broad spectrum of beliefs that are self-described by their adherents as axiomatic: in the relevant sense here, that belief in the existence of a god is as properly basic as an adoption of logical laws. These sorts of positions immediately call a few questions to my mind -- questions I would like to answer (if I can, or to wrangle with if I might) here: must we all, in fact, presuppose at least something? Is there a difference between some presuppositions and others in terms of epistemic strength and value?

The answer to the first question (must we all presuppose something?) is, without question, and somewhat counter-intuitively -- yes. There are no epistemic foundations that are free of presupposition; and ironically this very fact undermines a few theistic presuppositional epistemologies which claim access to direct divine knowledge of an absolute sort. So what is it that any epistemology must presuppose such that there is no justification possible in principle which could provide a foundation for the belief?

The belief I'm referring to -- which all epistemes presuppose in lieu of primary justification (recursive justification does not count) -- is the belief that our mental and cognitive faculties are capable of (and geared towards) producing true beliefs while avoiding false ones. After all, how can we possibly justify that belief without presupposing it? It's not possible, and so the presuppositionalist is vindicated on at least one minor point: we are all, to some degree, presuppositionalists.

However, what presuppositionalist arguments for the rationality of theistic beliefs often fail to do is to ask the question of whether some presuppositions have more epistemic merit than others in an objective sense. Is there an epistemic difference between presupposing our cogntive faculties are efficacious -- as opposed to presupposing the existence of a deity? Yes, and I'd like to point to the principle of parsimony here, an epistemic incarnation of Occam's Razor.

All I must do is point out that everyone must presuppose their mental faculties are reliable in order to have an episteme at all in the first place -- we are transcendentally bound to that presupposition: we can't even disagree with it without at the same time calling upon it! It is therefore safe from criticism from even the most worried skeptic.

However, the same can't be said for theistic presuppositions: there is no transcendental force urging its acceptance to us; we are quite free to doubt theistic presuppositions in our epistemic methods without invoking an immediate, explicit contradiction. Thus there is an objective and fundamental difference between the two presuppositions: one is universal, transcendental, and so required of us; the other is subjectively adopted, open to skepticism without contradiction, and in comparison to the other -- extraneous.

There I call attention to a sort of epistemic principle of parsimony: why carry more presuppositions than are absolutely necessary, particularly when there exist alternative epistemologies with fewer presuppositions?

Anyone?
 

dyanaprajna2011

Dharmapala
Why do we hold to presuppositions? What makes us accept them in the first place? There's no one answer, there are in fact, many. Most of us who hold to certain presuppositions, especially when there are mindsets that require less presupposition to accept, do so mainly because we were raised to think that way. For instance, the belief in a god. Most people speak and act as if one is there, because they were raised to think that way. It's ingrained in the human mind that there is some sort of divine being, whether one exists or not, so the presupposition is strong, and, I believe, the driving force behind why people still believe in some sort of deity.

Our mental faculties are just as flawed as we are, and since this is basically all we have to rely on for justification, you are right in saying that we all hold to certain presuppositions. To what extent can we trust our mental faculties, depends on any number of criteria, but that's not the point here; the point being that we have to realize that we can't always trust ourselves.

How this applies to epidemiological justification is that we have to apply the same argument to our senses: they can't always be trusted. Here is the problem: if this is the case, can we say anything at all that is of objective merit, and can we have any justification as far as epistemology is concerned at all? In other words, how can we know that any idea we have is not based on certain presuppositions, or are there some things which are true axioms, based on true objective knowledge?
 

Alex_G

Enlightner of the Senses
......Anyone?
Sensible post, I tend to agree with it on whole.

Some generic thoughts re the subject.

To what degree does your principle of parsimony function as one of the very presuppositions you talk about avoiding? Do we fundamentally presuppose that such an appeal to simplicity is necessarily better in arriving at truth in any specific circumstance via our presupposed competent faculties? Is there room for it to sometimes be misleading? Would it then be better to take such a principle under advisement in conjunction with consideration of the facts, circumstance and various channels of evidence that are relevant to your specific enquiry, rather than rely on it as some necessary presupposition? Or perhaps to put it another way, that whilst caution is warranted when views are encountered that contain more presuppositions, it doesn’t completely discount the truth value of its conclusion.

It seems to me that comparisons of epistemic quality of presuppositions don’t necessarily relate to their unavoidable-ness. Such that one unavoidable presupposition may be a larger hindrance to the pursuit of truth than another which is less unavoidable.

I can see how one discredits presuppositions in efforts to pursue truth and knowledge due to the lack of decent justification in them by definition. But if we are considered beings of limited faculties, many presuppositions, that are avoidable in principle, lend themselves as valued shortcuts that might very well, provided they turn out to be somewhat sound, allow for said beings to arrive at conclusions and higher understandings that would have been far more difficult without, perhaps never to have happened. In such cases, i could perhaps imagine a situation where more presuppositions ended up being of virtue, even if lucky.
 
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Super Universe

Defender of God
Presuppositionalism, axiomatic, epistemic, counter-intuitively, presuppositional epistemologies, transcendentally...

Are you going to submit this to Nature Magazine?

We're just simple folk here.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Presuppositionalism, axiomatic, epistemic, counter-intuitively, presuppositional epistemologies, transcendentally...

Are you going to submit this to Nature Magazine?

We're just simple folk here.

I'm not and I follow it, but even I prefer simpler language to suffusing a post with lots of philosophical terminology. The opening post expects far too much of the reader, particularly since study of philosophy is not required at any point in the typical US education. The only reason I follow it at all is because I've had a bit of philosophy coursework (more in the philosophy of science and environmental ethics end, though) and have such an obsession with the Four Elements that I've read all sorts of works in natural philosophy.

Meow Mix said:
The belief I'm referring to *snip* is the belief that our mental and cognitive faculties are capable of (and geared towards) producing true beliefs while avoiding false ones. After all, how can we possibly justify that belief without presupposing it? It's not possible, and so the presuppositionalist is vindicated on at least one minor point: we are all, to some degree, presuppositionalists.

I usually invoke the obvious limits in human sensory and cognitive capacity to argue that claims of knowing "The One True Truth" of anything are bogus, but this is a good way of looking at it as well. Just wanted to say that. :D

Meow Mix said:
There I call attention to a sort of epistemic principle of parsimony: why carry more presuppositions than are absolutely necessary, particularly when there exist alternative epistemologies with fewer presuppositions?

Why not? What determines or evaluates said necessity? Necessary for what or whose purpose? Why would fewer presuppositions necessarily be better than more? Does more more necessarily mean a presupposition is extraneous?

I would argue the average person does not even care about the "how many" question when it comes to the presuppositions that ground their worldview. That isn't how they evaluate the merits of a worldview. I question the practical relevance of the distinction, for outside of academic circles, I don't think there is one. I sure don't count the number of presuppositions that ground my worldview, and I don't care for it is irrelevant to the roles (or necessities) it serves in my life.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
There I call attention to a sort of epistemic principle of parsimony: why carry more presuppositions than are absolutely necessary, particularly when there exist alternative epistemologies with fewer presuppositions?

Anyone?
Because for some images of "god"--particularly monistic and non-dual images--there actually are fewer presuppositions made with god than without. Duality carries with it suppositions of a "me," individual and unique, that considers itself separate from god/the universe, therefore able to interact "at will" with god/the universe, and bend such to its bidding; able to "redeem" itself by moral thought and action that reconcile its lost self with the world (payment for this separation); able to conquer nature, and progress or steer the world in directions perceived to be for "betterment"; able to improve on nature, defeat illness, modify genetic code and harness the power of the atom; inheritable of "rights" that lift its "kind" above the mere individual; ...able to choose.

Duality is the biggest presupposition of them all. Without it, there is no distinction possible between "god" and the basic axioms that compose simple logic.
 
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idav

Being
Premium Member
There I call attention to a sort of epistemic principle of parsimony: why carry more presuppositions than are absolutely necessary, particularly when there exist alternative epistemologies with fewer presuppositions?

Anyone?

Because fewer presuppositions doesn't mean more correct. Lack of knowledge is cruel like that.
 

uberrobonomicon4000

Active Member
Because for some images of "god"--particularly monistic and non-dual images--there actually are fewer presuppositions made with god than without. Duality carries with it suppositions of a "me," individual and unique, that considers itself separate from god/the universe, therefore able to interact "at will" with god/the universe, and bend such to its bidding; able to "redeem" itself by moral thought and action that reconcile its lost self with the world (payment for this separation); able to conquer nature, and progress or steer the world in directions perceived to be for "betterment"; able to improve on nature, defeat illness, modify genetic code and harness the power of the atom; inheritable of "rights" that lift its "kind" above the mere individual; ...able to choose.

Duality is the biggest presupposition of them all. Without it, there is no distinction possible between "god" and the basic axioms that compose simple logic.
Your point on duality seemed promising until you pulled out the cleaver and stabbed it with a butter knife.

---------------------------

I would like to know where you collected the previously stated qualitative data.

My next question is can this same method of criticism be applied to agnostics and atheists?


If so can you demonstrate it, if not then can you explain why?


There I call attention to a sort of epistemic principle of parsimony: why carry more presuppositions than are absolutely necessary, particularly when there exist alternative epistemologies with fewer presuppositions?

Anyone?
Curiosity to inquiry perhaps? Some people like to know that which is unknown while others try to give a reasonable explanation (or presupposition) for rejecting it.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I have to do the 'math' on 'paper' because when ten words of a new idea go through my head by the time I reach the tenth word I have forgotten the first five.

{a conservative Christian method of apologetics that accepts on faith that God exists and that the Bible is true. No attempt is made to prove these beliefs logically vs the simplest of two competing theories is to be preferred}

(internet cut and paste)

It is human nature to prefer the simplest explanation of reality. I think that is true. But Christianity is not so simple if it needs dissecting. The foundation is simple I think but every thing else, not so simple.

It is against what I believe to be human nature to find a rational explanation for it.

Have I even hit the target? I need to look up some more words if I have anything else to say about it. It was fun!
 

Man of Faith

Well-Known Member
All I must do is point out that everyone must presuppose their mental faculties are reliable in order to have an episteme at all in the first place


If I understand the OP, they are making a case that says that theism makes more presuppositions than atheism and because of Occam's Razor, then atheism is a more logical position

I must point out some serious discrepancies in this logic. For one, the quote above decimates atheism, not theism. A theist has a reason to rely that their mental faculties are reliable because they are from God. An atheist must accept that their mental faculties are merely a blip in the ongoing change of evolutionary time and there is no way to say that what is logical today will be logical in the future. There is no benchmark for logic or even for stable standards of discussion. Ask a frog what the meaning of life is or their hopes and dreams for the future.

Nothing about the human experience validates atheism. Love, personhood, religion, logic, morality, ethics, purpose and meaning can all be explained very well with theism, but have no foundation in atheism. Atheists have a big presupposition and that is evolution did it all and that nature is all there is to life. I must presuppose that evolution created my longing to be with God and my hope and faith in Jesus. And if that is true, then there must be a survival reason for it, so why should I fight it?
 

Orias

Left Hand Path
It depends on what is necessary.

Necessity differs greatly from person to person. Even then, necessity is often a result of a want.

When it comes to belief about Gods some may not even find it necessary to have any belief guided towards achieving that essentially unexplainable feeling or part of nature gained from this awareness.

These types of concepts depend on if you seek to know or simply seek to be.
 

Prophet

breaking the statutes of my local municipality
It seems to me that presuppositionalism is just another word for fundamentalism which also relies primarily on irreducible, unprovable axioms as foundation for belief. Beings who form belief in this way become attached to their beliefs, often tuning out evidence to the contrary. Evidence isn't the only thing tuned out, as fundamentalists are driven to intolerance of beings who disagree. They are driven by insecurity because they defend beliefs which are supported only with a foundation of sand.
 

Orias

Left Hand Path
It seems to me that presuppositionalism is just another word for fundamentalism which also relies primarily on irreducible, unprovable axioms as foundation for belief. Beings who form belief in this way become attached to their beliefs, often tuning out evidence to the contrary. Evidence isn't the only thing tuned out, as fundamentalists are driven to intolerance of beings who disagree. They are driven by insecurity because they defend beliefs which are supported only with a foundation of sand.

By undermining fundamentalism your are undermining the entire integrity of the structure which is use to primarily distinguish value in perception and being.

There is a fundamental understanding for all belief, even universal one. There is a foundation for everything, even if all it be is sand, it still is.
 

Prophet

breaking the statutes of my local municipality
By undermining fundamentalism your are undermining the entire integrity of the structure which is use to primarily distinguish value in perception and being.

There is a fundamental understanding for all belief, even universal one. There is a foundation for everything, even if all it be is sand, it still is.

I highlighted the part that identifies you as a fundamentalist. Without thought, you posit things you can't demonstrate to be true in an attempt to debunk me.

What fundamentalist axioms must I agree to to believe that 2 and 2 equals 4? What fundamentalist axioms must I agree to to believe in evolution? What fundamentalist axioms must I agree to to know that love is the reason we live?
 
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