Prior to Bethleham Jesus

[Desert Snake]

I believe in Jesus as God, prior to the Man Jesus born to Mary.

I want to get an idea of how people view this aspct of Chrisitanity and religion, so I've put a poll up, comment if you want.

 

[Nada]

There is much evidence to support that Jesus is not God.There is also much evidence that proves there is no holy Trinity.People have been taught false doctrines by men with their own beliefs and traditions over the years.When we read and study we come to find out that there is only one God, and Jesus Christ is His Son, and first creation.Jesus was a spirit before he became Jesus in the flesh, and he is a spirit now in heaven.

First we should read some scriptures that show Jesus is not God.We will go to James 1:13. When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;

NOW...Matthew 4:1 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.

So from James 1:13 we can see that God cannot be tempted by evil.When we read Matthew 4:1 we can see that Jesus was ,in fact,tempted by evil.

This would render Jesus Christ not God according to Gods own Word.


If we go to 1 Corinthians 15:27,28 we can clearly see that there is a chain of command.
27 For he “has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Here it says that everything has been put under Christ except God who is the one who has put everything under Christ to begin with.It also goes on to say that once all is accomplished ,Jesus will then again be subject to God.Remember,when Jesus Christ is ruling Gods Kingdom,he is King.There are things Jesus must do first before he hands it back to God.

This is after Michael the Archangel has hurled down Satan and his angels out of heaven to earth.
Read this carefully.REV 12:10 I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
“Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God!

This passage is explaining that God is no longer King.It is Jesus Christ who has been given all authority in Heaven.

So when Jesus Christ became King in heaven he hurled down Satan and his angels to earth.This is when the 2,520 year prophecy in the book of Daniel comes into play.This is the prophecy of the "Gentile Times." It states that after this prophecy ends is when Jesus Christ would rule as King of Gods Kingdom for a period of time.This prophecy began in 607 B.C.E. with the destruction of Jerusalem by King Nebuchadnezzar.It goes on for 2,520 years until its end.If you go 2,520 years into the future,you come to 1914 C.E. Just add 606+1914 and you get the year 1914.

What happened in 1914 that was of great significance?WWI happened.There had never been a war that involved the entire globe before this time.This is when satan the devil was hurled down to earth.It coincides with revelation 12:7-10.

So we have Jesus ruling as King of Gods Kingdom and hurling down satan the devil.WWI broke out as soon as satan was hurled down to earth.The 2,520 year prophecy ended in 1914.It all adds up.

I know its really deep but its all proof....theres so much more, its crazy.

 

[Nada]

Most people think that when it says Jesus is the image of God that it means he literally is God.This is incorrect.
Colossians 1:15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

People fail to understand this passage.It is saying not that Jesus is God in his image literally.God is a spirit.We cannot see spirit creatures for they are invisible.This is referring to Gods attributes.Love,wisdom,justice and power.When Jesus came to earth he displayed all of Gods attributes.
He showed love.He was wise and told many stories using parables.He had a firm way with justice.He raise people from the dead and performed many other miracles using Gods power by way of the holy spirit.

So,Jesus was made in Gods image.

When God made Adam and Eve what did he say? He said "let us make man in our image,in our likeness."God did not mean that they were to look like God.He meant that he would make them with His qualities.With his attributes.God is a spirit.No one can see him.

Notice too in Colossians 1:15 in the end of the passage it says Jesus is the firstborn over all creation.We know for a fact that God is eternal.He has no born date.Reve 1:8

Jesus was in fact firstborn,so he cannot be God.

Notice also in Genesis 1:26 where God said,""let us make man in our image,in our likeness."
Who do you think God was talking to? It was Jesus before he became Jesus in the flesh.It was Jesus in spirit form.Remember,Jesus is Gods firstborn over all creation.He was with God when the earth and mankind was being created.He was working side by side with God as a master worker.Everything was made for him and through him.

If you read proverbs 8:22-31 it speaks of Jesus being with God during this time.

 

[Sleeppy]

I think we all began divine.. We were all created out of the Holy Spirit, into lesser spirits.

 

[Nada]

Thats not what the holy scriptures tells us.

 

[Estro Felino]

I am a Christian heretic, so my opinion on Mary and Jesus is very personal.
But it doesn't contradict the John's Gospel at all.

Because...God is the Logos, or Love, or the Word.
Mary has loved. and her love became flesh in her womb. She created Jesus. Jesus is Mary's creation.
Mary is just the living proof that we all can create. Through Love.
so...given that Jesus is an unrepeatable and unique being....of course...he is fruit of Mary's mind. He didn't exist before.
With Jesus, we have the beginning of divine humanity. That didn't exist before

 

[Sleeppy]

Thats not what the holy scriptures tells us.

In fact, it does. What did God breathe into Adam? In the beginning was the Word, and the Word became flesh. We were the Word of God before we came to be flesh.. And we are still the Word of God.

Isaiah 55:11

So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

 

[Nada]

In fact, it does. What did God breathe into Adam? In the beginning was the Word, and the Word became flesh. We were the Word of God before we came to be flesh.. And we are still the Word of God.

Isaiah 55:11

Thats incorrect.Jesus is the Word of God.Jesus was not always flesh.He was with God from the beginning.He was with God when Adam was being created.Thats why it says in Genesis 1:26,"“Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;" Its says us,not Me.

Another thing,in Colossians 1:15 it says, "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation." The holy scriptures is clear.It says that Jesus was the firstborn over all creation.Before Adam and before all the angels.Before the earth and before the heavens.

We,as humans,are NOT the Word of God.

 

[Katzpur]

Thats incorrect.Jesus is the Word of God.Jesus was not always flesh.He was with God from the beginning.He was with God when Adam was being created.Thats why it says in Genesis 1:26,"“Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;" Its says us,not Me.

Another thing,in Colossians 1:15 it says, "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation." The holy scriptures is clear.It says that Jesus was the firstborn over all creation.Before Adam and before all the angels.Before the earth and before the heavens.

We,as humans,are NOT the Word of God.

You know, it's entirely possible to believe that we were all with God in the beginning and that we all have a spark of divinity within us and still believe that Jesus Christ alone is the Word of God and His Only Begotten Son. I know, because this is what I believe.

 

[Nada]

You know, it's entirely possible to believe that we were all with God in the beginning and that we all have a spark of divinity within us and still believe that Jesus Christ alone is the Word of God and His Only Begotten Son. I know, because this is what I believe.

Its entirely possible to believe anything,but,that does not make it so.We,as humans, are not divine.

 

[Sleeppy]

Thats incorrect.Jesus is the Word of God.Jesus was not always flesh.He was with God from the beginning.He was with God when Adam was being created.Thats why it says in Genesis 1:26,"“Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;" Its says us,not Me.

Another thing,in Colossians 1:15 it says, "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation." The holy scriptures is clear.It says that Jesus was the firstborn over all creation.Before Adam and before all the angels.Before the earth and before the heavens.

We,as humans,are NOT the Word of God.

Jesus was not the only flesh/human created from God's Word. We all originated from God's Word (everything that exists); the fact that Jesus is called the "firstborn" should serve as a hint that he wasn't the only one. Jesus is also called the "only begotten", but you'd be mislead if you began to think he was literally the only son of God; it's symbolic. Isaac was also called the only begotten of Abraham, despite having Ishmael as an older brother. These writers used figurative and symbolic language- a lot.

Exodus 4:22

And thou hast said unto Pharaoh, Thus said God, "My son, My firstborn is Israel."

But I'm not going to argue back and forth with you, because it's not a particularly important matter. Believing one way or the other is less important than the actual gospel message, "the kingdom of God is at hand."

 

[Nada]

Jesus was not the only flesh/human created from God's Word. We all originated from God's Word (everything that exists); the fact that Jesus is called the "firstborn" should serve as a hint that he wasn't the only one. Jesus is also called the "only begotten", but you'd be mislead if you began to think he was literally the only son of God; it's symbolic. Isaac was also called the only begotten of Abraham, despite having Ishmael as an older brother. These writers used figurative and symbolic language- a lot.

Exodus 4:22




But I'm not going to argue back and forth with you, because it's not a particularly important matter. Believing one way or the other is less important than the actual gospel message, "the kingdom of God is at hand."

I'm well aware that Jesus was not the only human created.I'm also aware that others are called sons of God,but, you forget something very important.Jesus,when he was first created as a spirit,was made by God alone.That is why he is called the only begotten Son.Everything else was made through him and for him.

1 Colossians 1:16 for through him God created everything in the heavenly realms and on earth. He made the things we can see and the things we can't see--such as thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities in the unseen world. Everything was created through him and for him.

What does it say one verse before this?

Colossians 1:15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

So,what this is saying is that before everything else was made,the Son existed first.Hence,firstborn over all creation.

Thats why it says this in Hebrews 1:4-6.…4 having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they. 5 For to which of the angels did He ever say, "YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU"? And again, "I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME"? 6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, "AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM."…

Jesus is the only begotten Son of God the Almighty and the Firstborn over all creation.
Thats what is being spoken of in Proverbs 8:22-31.

22 The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
23 I was formed long ages ago,
at the very beginning, when the world came to be.
24 When there were no watery depths, I was given birth,
when there were no springs overflowing with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the world or its fields
or any of the dust of the earth.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 then I was beside him, like a master workman,
and I was daily hise delight,
31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.

 

[Nada]

Jesus was not the only flesh/human created from God's Word. We all originated from God's Word (everything that exists); the fact that Jesus is called the "firstborn" should serve as a hint that he wasn't the only one. Jesus is also called the "only begotten", but you'd be mislead if you began to think he was literally the only son of God; it's symbolic. Isaac was also called the only begotten of Abraham, despite having Ishmael as an older brother. These writers used figurative and symbolic language- a lot.

Exodus 4:22




But I'm not going to argue back and forth with you, because it's not a particularly important matter. Believing one way or the other is less important than the actual gospel message, "the kingdom of God is at hand."

(ISAAC ONLY BEGOTTEN SON)
You need to fully understand why Isaac was called the only begotten son.The reason was simply because Isaac was born from Sarah,which was Abrahams wife.Although Abraham had a son,Ishmael, first, with Hagar,this was not his wife.She was his concubine.Sarah gave her to Abraham to bear a son, since Sarah was barren.That is why Isaac was used to spread the seed of Abraham as promised by God.It was not Ishmael, because he was not Abrahams begotten son.Isaac was.

Same with Jesus.He is Gods only begotten Son.Jesus was made personally by God.The angels and the universe were made through Jesus and for him.That is why Jesus inherits Gods throne and no one else.

 

[Nada]

Jesus was not the only flesh/human created from God's Word. We all originated from God's Word (everything that exists); the fact that Jesus is called the "firstborn" should serve as a hint that he wasn't the only one. Jesus is also called the "only begotten", but you'd be mislead if you began to think he was literally the only son of God; it's symbolic. Isaac was also called the only begotten of Abraham, despite having Ishmael as an older brother. These writers used figurative and symbolic language- a lot.

Exodus 4:22




But I'm not going to argue back and forth with you, because it's not a particularly important matter. Believing one way or the other is less important than the actual gospel message, "the kingdom of God is at hand."

You need to know this in order to have a full understanding of Gods Word.This is having an accurate knowledge of the truth.It is important.To say it is not is not a good thing.

 

[Nada]

Jesus was not the only flesh/human created from God's Word. We all originated from God's Word (everything that exists); the fact that Jesus is called the "firstborn" should serve as a hint that he wasn't the only one. Jesus is also called the "only begotten", but you'd be mislead if you began to think he was literally the only son of God; it's symbolic. Isaac was also called the only begotten of Abraham, despite having Ishmael as an older brother. These writers used figurative and symbolic language- a lot.

Exodus 4:22




But I'm not going to argue back and forth with you, because it's not a particularly important matter. Believing one way or the other is less important than the actual gospel message, "the kingdom of God is at hand."

(Israel called Firstborn)

According to God’s promise to Abraham, His due time had arrived for Him to deliver the nation of Israel from “the iron furnace” of Egypt. Jehovah God considered Israel as his firstborn son by virtue of the promise to Abraham. When Jacob went down to Egypt with his household, he went down voluntarily but his descendants later became slaves. As a nation, they were dear to Jehovah as a firstborn son, and Jehovah had the legal right to deliver them from Egypt without the payment of a price.

Since the firstborn sons among the Israelites were those in line to become the heads of the various households, they represented the entire nation. Jehovah, in fact, referred to the whole nation as his “firstborn,” it being his firstborn nation because of the Abrahamic covenant. (Ex 4:22)

Birth of the Nation. Under the covenant made with Abraham, the resultant congregation of Israel was viewed as a single individual, and, therefore, a close relative could reclaim or repurchase them from their slavery. Jehovah was that close relative by this legal covenant, indeed, their Father, and as the rightful Repurchaser he used punitive force to kill Pharaoh’s firstborn for refusing to release God’s “firstborn” son Israel. (Ex 4:22, 23; 6:2-7)

In the days of Moses, the Israelites were in slavery to Egypt. They had voluntarily gone into Egypt during Jacob’s lifetime but were enslaved after Jacob’s son, the prime minister Joseph, had died. So, in effect, they were sold into slavery for nothing. Jehovah, in harmony with the patriarchal law of redemption and of the priority of the firstborn son, told Pharaoh, by the mouth of Moses and Aaron: “Israel is my son, my firstborn. And I say to you: Send my son away that he may serve me. But should you refuse to send him away, here I am killing your son, your firstborn.” (Ex 4:22, 23) No redemption price was necessary for this release, nor was any given to Egypt.



“Israel Is My Son.” To Pharaoh, who considered himself a god and a son of the Egyptian god Ra, Jehovah spoke of Israel as “my son, my firstborn,” and called on the Egyptian ruler to “send my son away that he may serve me.” (Ex 4:22, 23) Thus the entire nation of Israel was viewed by God as his “son” because of being his chosen people, a “special property, out of all the peoples.” (De 14:1, 2) Not only because Jehovah is the Source of all life but more specifically because God had, in harmony with the Abrahamic covenant, produced this people, he is called their “Creator,” their “Former,” and their “Father,” the one by whose name they were called. (Compare Ps 95:6, 7; 100:3; Isa 43:1-7, 15; 45:11, 12, 18, 19; 63:16.) He had ‘helped them even from the belly,’ evidently referring to the very beginning of their development as a people, and he ‘formed’ them by his dealings with them and by the Law covenant, giving shape to the national characteristics and structure. (Isa 44:1, 2, 21; compare God’s expressions to Jerusalem at Eze 16:1-14; also Paul’s expressions at Ga 4:19 and 1Th 2:11, 12.) Jehovah protected, carried, corrected, and provided for them as a father would for his son. (De 1:30, 31; 8:5-9; compare Isa 49:14, 15.) As “a son,” the nation should have served to the praise of its Father. (Isa 43:21; Mal 1:6) Otherwise Israel would belie its sonship (De 32:4-6, 18-20; Isa 1:2, 3; 30:1, 2, 9), even as some of the Israelites acted in disreputable ways and were called “sons of belial” (literal Hebrew expression rendered “good-for-nothing men” at De 13:13 and other texts; compare 2Co 6:15). They became “renegade sons.”—Jer 3:14, 22; compare 4:22.
It was in this national sense, and due to their covenant relationship, that God dealt with the Israelites as sons. This is seen by the fact that God simultaneously refers to himself not only as their “Maker” but also as their “Repurchaser” and even as their “husbandly owner,” this latter expression placing Israel in the relationship of a wife to him. (Isa 54:5, 6; compare Isa 63:8; Jer 3:14.) It was evidently with their covenant relationship in mind, and recognizing God as responsible for the formation of the nation, that the Israelites addressed themselves to Jehovah as “our Father.”—Isa 63:16-19; compare Jer 3:18-20; Ho 1:10, 11.

 

[Katzpur]

Its entirely possible to believe anything,but,that does not make it so.We,as humans, are not divine.

No, we're not. But we were created in God's imagine. He is the father of our spirits and we are his spirit offspring. He has given us far greater potential to become like him than you evidently realize. There is a spark of divinity in each of us.

 

[Sleeppy]

I'm well aware that Jesus was not the only human created.I'm also aware that others are called sons of God,but, you forget something very important.Jesus,when he was first created as a spirit,was made by God alone.That is why he is called the only begotten Son.Everything else was made through him and for him.

1 Colossians 1:16 for through him God created everything in the heavenly realms and on earth. He made the things we can see and the things we can't see--such as thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities in the unseen world. Everything was created through him and for him.

What does it say one verse before this?

Colossians 1:15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

So,what this is saying is that before everything else was made,the Son existed first.Hence,firstborn over all creation.

Thats why it says this in Hebrews 1:4-6.…4 having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they. 5 For to which of the angels did He ever say, "YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU"? And again, "I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME"? 6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, "AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM."…

Jesus is the only begotten Son of God the Almighty and the Firstborn over all creation.
Thats what is being spoken of in Proverbs 8:22-31.

22 The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
23 I was formed long ages ago,
at the very beginning, when the world came to be.
24 When there were no watery depths, I was given birth,
when there were no springs overflowing with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the world or its fields
or any of the dust of the earth.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 then I was beside him, like a master workman,
and I was daily hise delight,
31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.

The angels are given God's name. They are called "Elohim", or "Bene Elohim," which means sons of God. Even Satan is a son of God.

Job 1:6

Now it fell upon a day, that the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

We are also given God's name. We are called Elohim, when we are in positions of authority (because God's Word/will is done). We are called sons of the Most High.


Psalms 82

God standeth in the congregation of God; in the midst of the judges He judgeth:

'How long will ye judge unjustly, and respect the persons of the wicked? Selah

Judge the poor and fatherless; do justice to the afflicted and destitute.

Rescue the poor and needy; deliver them out of the hand of the wicked.

They know not, neither do they understand; they go about in darkness; all the foundations of the earth are moved.

I said: Ye are godlike beings, and all of you sons of the Most High.

Nevertheless ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.'

Arise, O God, judge the earth; for Thou shalt possess all the nations.

Colossians and Hebrews are Paul's (afaik).. He used artistic license. At times he withheld his opinions, at other times he didn't. It was the same for every other Tanakh, Oral Torah, and New Testament writer. Paul also says:

2 Corinthians 12

I have known a man in Christ, fourteen years ago -- whether in the body I have not known, whether out of the body I have not known, God hath known -- such an one being caught away unto the third heaven.

He doesn't know whether or not Jesus was taken up in the flesh or not, but he somehow knows all these other things about the beginning of ages. It doesn't add up, in my mind.

 

[Sleeppy]

(ISAAC ONLY BEGOTTEN SON)
You need to fully understand why Isaac was called the only begotten son.The reason was simply because Isaac was born from Sarah,which was Abrahams wife.Although Abraham had a son,Ishmael, first, with Hagar,this was not his wife.She was his concubine.Sarah gave her to Abraham to bear a son, since Sarah was barren.That is why Isaac was used to spread the seed of Abraham as promised by God.It was not Ishmael, because he was not Abrahams begotten son.Isaac was.

Same with Jesus.He is Gods only begotten Son.Jesus was made personally by God.The angels and the universe were made through Jesus and for him.That is why Jesus inherits Gods throne and no one else.

Isaac and Ishmael were both begotten of Abraham. Begotten means "born".

 

[Nada]

No, we're not. But we were created in God's imagine. He is the father of our spirits and we are his spirit offspring. He has given us far greater potential to become like him than you evidently realize. There is a spark of divinity in each of us.

No.We are not divine.When God said,"Let us make mankind in our image,in our likeness",He was speaking of His qualities.His attributes.Those attributes are: Love,Wisdom,Justice and Power.

 

[Nada]

The angels are given God's name. They are called "Elohim", or "Bene Elohim," which means sons of God. Even Satan is a son of God.

Job 1:6




We are also given God's name. We are called Elohim, when we are in positions of authority (because God's Word/will is done). We are called sons of the Most High.


Psalms 82


Colossians and Hebrews are Paul's (afaik).. He used artistic license. At times he withheld his opinions, at other times he didn't. It was the same for every other Tanakh, Oral Torah, and New Testament writer. Paul also says:

2 Corinthians 12



He doesn't know whether or not Jesus was taken up in the flesh or not, but he somehow knows all these other things about the beginning of ages. It doesn't add up, in my mind.

No.Thats incorrect.