Problems vs. Solutions and criticizing (e.g.), BLM

[icehorse]

It seems as though many (not all to be sure), of the folks who are protesting these days have come to believe that if a person has a problem, they’re the best source of the solution. When did this become a thing? We don’t take this myth seriously in most other domains of human endeavor.

If I tear my ACL, I’m clearly the person that best understands the pain associated. But that doesn’t make me a knee surgeon.

But as a white male, I’m often scolded for criticizing BLM or other protesting groups. I’m told “if I haven’t lived it, I don’t know it”, or some such. It seems as though the scolders are bundling the problem and the solution together.

 

[Revoltingest]

You're in luck today....I've nothing to add.

 

[Polymath257]

Without special training, it *is* difficult to understand the pain and suffering of those whose experience is very different than our own.

So, in your example, someone that claimed your pain is insignificant because they once scraped their knee might well frustrate you.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Not sure if this has been posted elsewhere but it is useful for the amount of information it contains:

Black History timeline

 

[icehorse]

Without special training, it *is* difficult to understand the pain and suffering of those whose experience is very different than our own.

So, in your example, someone that claimed your pain is insignificant because they once scraped their knee might well frustrate you.

Not everyone who tears their ACL will experience the same pain. But the surgeon's solution is more focused on the solution than the current (or historical), pain.

 

[icehorse]

Not everyone who tears their ACL will experience the same pain. But the surgeon's solution is more focused on the solution than the current (or historical), pain.

In a similar fashion, I'm not questioning that a black person living in a dangerous, impoverished community has a good handle on their problems. What I'm saying is that that doesn't make them experts in economics, or social studies, or urban renewal, or education and so on.

 

[Left Coast]

In a similar fashion, I'm not questioning that a black person living in a dangerous, impoverished community has a good handle on their problems. What I'm saying is that that doesn't make them experts in economics, or social studies, or urban renewal, or education and so on.

Which experts in economics, social studies, urban renewal, or education are proposing solutions that BLM opposes?

The criticisms of BLM these days are really getting creative.

 

[icehorse]

Which experts in economics, social studies, urban renewal, or education are proposing solutions that BLM opposes?

The criticisms of BLM these days are really getting creative.

Not my point. My point is that a lot of protestors these days make the claim that "only they" can speak of solutions.

 

[Terry Sampson]

When did this become a thing? We don’t take this myth seriously in most other domains of human endeavor.

You've obviously never met my brother-in-law.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Not my point. My point is that a lot of protestors these days make the claim that "only they" can speak of solutions.

That's a problem with using an emotionally based rationale. It only implies that a single race can bring some resolution to that particular race. It's not inclusive in terms of the acknowledgement that there are other races involved.

It's why dialogue is so important, but it doesn't do much if it's relegated to such a narrow vision.

 

[Left Coast]

Not my point. My point is that a lot of protestors these days make the claim that "only they" can speak of solutions.

I haven't heard that specifically in the way you're phrasing it. I'm not sure if "a lot of protestors" is just a reference to your anecdotal experience, or if you've seen some larger data collection to support this. I would agree that there is a trend among protestors against what are often called "white saviors." This is the tendency among some white who see themselves as allies to the movement but propose solutions without a deep understanding of the history and real lived experience of black people. This does not mean white people can never offer solutions.

 

[icehorse]

I haven't heard that specifically in the way you're phrasing it. I'm not sure if "a lot of protestors" is just a reference to your anecdotal experience, or if you've seen some larger data collection to support this. I would agree that there is a trend among protestors against what are often called "white saviors." This is the tendency among some white who see themselves as allies to the movement but propose solutions without a deep understanding of the history and real lived experience of black people. This does not mean white people can never offer solutions.

I think your post is a subtle example of what I'm describing. We often hear that "history" and "lived experience" should be given special status in the discussion of solutions. I agree that history and lived experience are important aspects of accurately describing the problems to be solved. But there is a common trope that somehow "lived experience" conveys to a person some expertise in cooking up solutions, AND that those without the "lived experience" cannot be valid contributors to solutions.

 

[Left Coast]

I think your post is a subtle example of what I'm describing. We often hear that "history" and "lived experience" should be given special status in the discussion of solutions. I agree that history and lived experience are important aspects of accurately describing the problems to be solved. But there is a common trope that somehow "lived experience" conveys to a person some expertise in cooking up solutions, AND that those without the "lived experience" cannot be valid contributors to solutions.

It's a bit like proposing a solution to an ACL tear when you don't know how ligaments work, or when you have zero experience repairing them and have never talked to anyone who has torn one to understand their symptoms, the cause of their injury, and so on.

 

[icehorse]

It's a bit like proposing a solution to an ACL tear when you don't know how ligaments work, or when you have zero experience repairing them and have never talked to anyone who has torn one to understand their symptoms, the cause of their injury, and so on.

Not my point at all. How on earth is that what you took away from post 12?

(It seems that defenses of BLM are getting quite creative these days )

 

[Terry Sampson]

Not my point. My point is that a lot of protestors these days make the claim that "only they" can speak of solutions.

LOL! As far as I know and am concerned, the only "only they" who can speak of solutions are folks who live on a very small island and don't plan on or need to export or import anything.

 

[Left Coast]

Not my point at all. How on earth is that what you took away from post 12?

(It seems that defenses of BLM are getting quite creative these days )

If you agree that history and experience are vital components of understanding a problem, and you agree that understanding a problem is a rather obvious prerequisite to developing helpful solutions, then I'm not sure what exactly your issue is?

You seem to be arguing a straw man, the weakest version of the position of BLM and its allies. The issue isn't that white people "cannot be valid contributors to solutions" of problems faced by black people.

 

[dybmh]

It seems as though many (not all to be sure), of the folks who are protesting these days have come to believe that if a person has a problem, they’re the best source of the solution. When did this become a thing? We don’t take this myth seriously in most other domains of human endeavor.

If I tear my ACL, I’m clearly the person that best understands the pain associated. But that doesn’t make me a knee surgeon.

But as a white male, I’m often scolded for criticizing BLM or other protesting groups. I’m told “if I haven’t lived it, I don’t know it”, or some such. It seems as though the scolders are bundling the problem and the solution together.

Hello @icehorse,

I think in this case, the folks who are scolding you, are right. Hopefully they are not scolding you too badly though, because I would expect that your anti-corporate leanings ( if I am remembering your POV correctly ) puts you on nice firm common ground with the BLM protestors ( at least the ones that I know ). Plus you seem like a nice person, in general.

Putting that aside...

I could be wrong, but it seems like black and brown people are treated so-so much differently than white people by the police. The last time I looked the statistics are overwhelming. The same goes for bank financing. The last time I checked, black and brown people are treated much-much differently than white people by banks. That affects property ownership, starting a small business, and upward social mobility. Really, most important is property ownership; that affects everything. In America, owning property is what separates the "haves" with the "have-nots".

Dude, I can keep going.

Here in Portland Oregon, did you know that Strippers are out there protesting? They claim that black and brown dancers are treated much-much differently than white dancers. The white dancers get put on stage more often and are put on stage more often when the clubs are full. The strippers say that their skin color determines how they are valued by strip club owners.

It's across the board racism that you and I cannot, and hopefully will not ever have to experience. And yes, I think that a person needs brown or black skin to really know how it feels to find out repeatedly, that an *unarmed* black or brown person was killed by white police officers. We, white people, cannot know that. Not unless we have been repeatedly treated differently at our jobs, at the banks, and by law enforcement because of our skin color for generations. I cannot believe that any white person in America has had all three of those happen to themselves, their families, for generations, the same as black and brown people in America.

I just can't believe it. If it's happening, I'm sure there are RF'ers out there who can show it, prove it, and bury my ignorance into the ground if I'm wrong.

So, am I wrong? Are there any white people out there who have had all three of these types of racist experiences happen to themselves and their families for generations?

If not, then Icehorse, your friends are right. White people do not, cannot know what it's like, and therefore should not criticize the Black Lives Matter movement on the basis of "enough is enough". They *need* to protest Icehorse; we as white people probably will never be able to relate to that need. It's just a fact of life.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It seems as though many (not all to be sure), of the folks who are protesting these days have come to believe that if a person has a problem, they’re the best source of the solution. When did this become a thing? We don’t take this myth seriously in most other domains of human endeavor.

If I tear my ACL, I’m clearly the person that best understands the pain associated. But that doesn’t make me a knee surgeon.

But as a white male, I’m often scolded for criticizing BLM or other protesting groups. I’m told “if I haven’t lived it, I don’t know it”, or some such. It seems as though the scolders are bundling the problem and the solution together.

Have you considered the possibility that you really don't know what you're talking about on the issue?

 

[Stevicus]

It seems as though many (not all to be sure), of the folks who are protesting these days have come to believe that if a person has a problem, they’re the best source of the solution. When did this become a thing? We don’t take this myth seriously in most other domains of human endeavor.

If I tear my ACL, I’m clearly the person that best understands the pain associated. But that doesn’t make me a knee surgeon.

But as a white male, I’m often scolded for criticizing BLM or other protesting groups. I’m told “if I haven’t lived it, I don’t know it”, or some such. It seems as though the scolders are bundling the problem and the solution together.

It's a common argument, the idea that "if you haven't walked in our shoes, you can't know." I've heard similar arguments from military veterans who served in combat and might be dismissive of opinions of those who weren't there or didn't serve.

We hear similar arguments from police officers and their supporters who deride their liberal critics who "don't know what it's like."

But on the other hand, it's still possible to listen to someone's grievances, even if one might not have personal knowledge of what it's like. If you ask someone who's experienced it, they'll tell you what it's like, and one can also read about it, so that's a good way of acquiring information, even if one doesn't personally experience it.

That, to me, is the bottom line. If someone or a group of people has righteous grievances, then the government's duty is to listen to them (and by extension, that would also include our democratic society as a whole). The problem isn't the people with the grievances. The problem is what happens when the grievances are brought to the government, the politicians get their hands in it, and it all turns to mush. It's the same familiar pattern, time and again.

 

[icehorse]

The issue isn't that white people "cannot be valid contributors to solutions" of problems faced by black people.

Finally, we're addressing the OP.

My claim is that there IS an issue when protestors claim that "unless you've lived it, you cannot have a voice in solving it".