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Problems with Belief when it comes to a Christian and Islamic God...

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
The reasoning is too wonderful for us to know. I sincerely doubt anyone can possibly comprehend the mind of Almighty God. Our thoughts are as far below His as an ant's thoughts are below our own.

No ant could possibly begin to understand why we do the things we do or even how we go about thinking, indeed they can't even think at a high enough level to understand what thinking is. So it is with us and God.

Do you think ants speculate so wildly about our properties as you speculate about the properties of God?

In other words: how do we know that the God of our beliefs (whichever they are) is correct, if His mental qualities are so inaccessible to the human mind? For what we are able to ascertain, under your premise, God could be evil, or simply indifferent about our destiny, so that making any theory about His qualities (e.g. being good and having a plan for us) is a waste of time. Don't you think?

So, why are you a Catholic? That would entail knowing, or thinking to know, a lot about His mind.

Ciao

- viole
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Which then is the same as "explain".
Not really. True, I can describe anything that I can explain, but I mean "explain" using logic and empiricism (that is, I can "explain" how unicorns create rainbows, but in my use this would require an empirically-based explanation and this is impossible).
But are you saying it actually exists?
Of course it does. I don't differentiate between "actually" existing interpretations.

Cause is inferred by the fact that I mentioned creation I think.
That you mention creation assumes a creator, which not only assumes a model of causality without justification but a creator without justification.

For ex: according to Dr Dawkins
I don't care what that moron has ever said.
So what therefore is natural? Where does it come from? What made it? Did it have a beginning? How do laws form within it?
Whence, wherefore, hence, thence, etc., all assume.

In plain English please with basic examples.
Consider a model, simulation, or similar "realization" of a cell and the process of metabolic-repair, and letf:A→Bbe a function
"where f is the process that takes input A and output B...The system Rosen uses for an example is the Metabolism-Repair or [M,R] system. The process, f, in this case stands for the entire metabolism going on in an organism...The transition, f, which is being called metabolism, is a mapping taking some set of metabolites, A, into some set of products, B. What are the members of A? Really everything in the organism has to be included in A, and there has to be an implicit agreement that at least some of the members of A can enter the organism from its environment. What are the members of B? Many, if not all, of the members of A since the transitions in the reduced system are all strung together in the many intricate patterns or networks that make up the organism's metabolism. It also must be true that some members of B leave the organism as products of metabolism...In the context developed so far, the mapping, f, has a very special nature. A functional component has many interesting attributes. First of all, it exists independent of the material partsthat make it possible.Reductionism has taught us that every thing in a real system can be expressed as a collection of material parts. This is not so in the case of functional components...Fragmentability is the aspect of systems that can be reduced to their material parts leaving recognizable material entities as the result. A system is not fragmentable is reducing it to its parts destroys something essential about that system. Since the crux of understanding a complex system had to do with identifying the context dependent functional components, they are by definition, not fragmentable". (emphasis added; italics in original)
Mikulecky, D. C. (2005). The Circle That Never Ends: Can Complexity be Made Simple? In D. Bonchev & D. H. Rouvray (Eds.).Complexity in Chemistry, Biology, and Ecology(Mathematical and Computational Chemistry). Springer.

"systems biology is concerned with the relationship between molecules and cells; it treats cells as organized, or organizing, molecular systems having both molecular and cellular properties. It is concerned with how life or the functional properties thereof that are not yet in the molecules, emerge from the particular organization of and interactions between its molecular processes. It uses models to describe particular cells and generalizes over various cell types and organisms to arrive at new theories of cells as molecular systems. It is concerned with explaining and predicting cellular behaviour on the basis of molecular behaviour.It refers to function in ways that would not be permitted in physics. It addresses an essential minimum complexity exceeding that of any physical chemical system understood until now. It shies away from reduction of the system under study to a collection of elementary particles. Indeed, it seems to violate many of the philosophical foundations of physics, often in ways unprecedented even by modern physics." (emphases added)
Boogerd, F., Bruggeman, F. J., Hofmeyr, J. H. S., & Westerhoff, H. V. (Eds.). (2007).Systems biology: philosophical foundations. Elsevier.

Not intial casuation would mean that whatever everything is had always been
Only if one assumes a naïve linear causality.
The same seems to apply to circular
Linearity applies to nonlinearity?
Let me give you an ex: evolution happens through random mutations which have no chance of forming anything
If random, then they have the chance of forming everything.[/QUOTE]
 

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
Not really. True, I can describe anything that I can explain, but I mean "explain" using logic and empiricism (that is, I can "explain" how unicorns create rainbows, but in my use this would require an empirically-based explanation and this is impossible).

Of course it does. I don't differentiate between "actually" existing interpretations.


That you mention creation assumes a creator, which not only assumes a model of causality without justification but a creator without justification.


I don't care what that moron has ever said.

Whence, wherefore, hence, thence, etc., all assume.


Consider a model, simulation, or similar "realization" of a cell and the process of metabolic-repair, and letf:A→Bbe a function
"where f is the process that takes input A and output B...The system Rosen uses for an example is the Metabolism-Repair or [M,R] system. The process, f, in this case stands for the entire metabolism going on in an organism...The transition, f, which is being called metabolism, is a mapping taking some set of metabolites, A, into some set of products, B. What are the members of A? Really everything in the organism has to be included in A, and there has to be an implicit agreement that at least some of the members of A can enter the organism from its environment. What are the members of B? Many, if not all, of the members of A since the transitions in the reduced system are all strung together in the many intricate patterns or networks that make up the organism's metabolism. It also must be true that some members of B leave the organism as products of metabolism...In the context developed so far, the mapping, f, has a very special nature. A functional component has many interesting attributes. First of all, it exists independent of the material partsthat make it possible.Reductionism has taught us that every thing in a real system can be expressed as a collection of material parts. This is not so in the case of functional components...Fragmentability is the aspect of systems that can be reduced to their material parts leaving recognizable material entities as the result. A system is not fragmentable is reducing it to its parts destroys something essential about that system. Since the crux of understanding a complex system had to do with identifying the context dependent functional components, they are by definition, not fragmentable". (emphasis added; italics in original)
Mikulecky, D. C. (2005). The Circle That Never Ends: Can Complexity be Made Simple? In D. Bonchev & D. H. Rouvray (Eds.).Complexity in Chemistry, Biology, and Ecology(Mathematical and Computational Chemistry). Springer.

"systems biology is concerned with the relationship between molecules and cells; it treats cells as organized, or organizing, molecular systems having both molecular and cellular properties. It is concerned with how life or the functional properties thereof that are not yet in the molecules, emerge from the particular organization of and interactions between its molecular processes. It uses models to describe particular cells and generalizes over various cell types and organisms to arrive at new theories of cells as molecular systems. It is concerned with explaining and predicting cellular behaviour on the basis of molecular behaviour.It refers to function in ways that would not be permitted in physics. It addresses an essential minimum complexity exceeding that of any physical chemical system understood until now. It shies away from reduction of the system under study to a collection of elementary particles. Indeed, it seems to violate many of the philosophical foundations of physics, often in ways unprecedented even by modern physics." (emphases added)
Boogerd, F., Bruggeman, F. J., Hofmeyr, J. H. S., & Westerhoff, H. V. (Eds.). (2007).Systems biology: philosophical foundations. Elsevier.


Only if one assumes a naïve linear causality.

Linearity applies to nonlinearity?

If random, then they have the chance of forming everything.
I did say basic English didn't I? No matter.
I feel we are getting nowhere.
I will try again with the new worded question: Did everything arrive from intelligence or through blind chance. If not what is the answer
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
I did say basic English didn't I? No matter.
I feel we are getting nowhere.
I will try again with the new worded question: Did everything arrive from intelligence or through blind chance. If not what is the answer
It isn't blind chance, it is natural selection.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I did say basic English didn't I?
I'm sorry that I can't condense into a simplistic version an explanation of a single language of a matter that has concerned the brightest minds for over 2,500 years that we know of in over a dozen languages that I can read without the formalism that such inquiry has resulted in independently of language but dependent upon formal language and technical terminology.
 

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
I'm sorry that I can't condense into a simplistic version an explanation of a single language of a matter that has concerned the brightest minds for over 2,500 years that we know of in over a dozen languages that I can read without the formalism that such inquiry has resulted in independently of language but dependent upon formal language and technical terminology.
Right. You are being polite so I do not want to say what I think really. Sometimes when there is a big disparity in intelligence (yours and mine) it is hard to communicate...this is one of those times. But I might ask you to answer the question:

Did everything arrive from intelligence or through blind chance. If not what is the answer. Just a simple answer might do.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
We can't even get past the stage where we tie our shoelaces, let alone take a journey yet.
Speak for yourself and just answer the question... when you ask "Did everything arrive from intelligence or through blind chance. If not what is the answer" do you include your god in "everything"?
 

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
Speak for yourself and just answer the question... when you ask "Did everything arrive from intelligence or through blind chance. If not what is the answer" do you include your god in "everything"?
I have answered this many times before but I am not being sidelined until someone answers this other than with "false dichotomy" and does not say what the answer is. Apparently, it is too complicated to explain.
 

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
Chance maybe, but certainly not blind chance. Natural laws provide order of some kind.
Okay, and the laws come from where? blind chance or intelligence or something else, and if something else, what is that something else. (blood from a stone)
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Chance maybe, but certainly not blind chance. Natural laws provide order of some kind.
You have nothing to compare probability to, it isn't even ''chance'', because there is no other occurrence. Even saying ''luck'' is a stretch, and people are still complaining about that . ''luck'', is a gimme, theists don't have to entertain that idea, anymore than we might have to entertain the idea of pink unicorns.
 

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
That would work if the multi-verse theory is correct. Many universes, many different parameters.
So blind chance can work because the odds have changed, right? Okay, where does the multiverse come from? I suppose you will say it has always been there. But complicated things have to be explained don't they?
 
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