Problems with mysticism?

[Buttons*]

I have started to wonder about something. Obviousely, atheists have a hard time seeing truth in organized religion, and any other sort of spirituality. However, how do atheists actually feel about something like mysticism? Is it all the same hogwash, or is there a difference between attending church and doing "your own thing" as it were?

Can there be any good lessons from either teaching that happen to affect your atheism?

 

[Willamena]

However, how do atheists actually feel about something like mysticism?

I like it.

Is it all the same hogwash, or is there a difference between attending church and doing "your own thing" as it were?

I don't know. As an atheist, I've never attended church. I've only ever done "my own thing".

Can there be any good lessons from either teaching that happen to affect your atheism?

Not affect my atheism, no, but affect my world, sure.

 

[Buttons*]

I like it.

Do you ever find that looking to mysticism can help bring balance to your life? Does atheism have "all the answers"? Of course, no one person has all the answers... that would be silly, but do you get what I mean?

I don't know. As an atheist, I've never attended church. I've only ever done "my own thing".

Many mystics dont' really go to church as it were. I suppose you'd get on easier with Mystics because they tend not to push their beliefs on others... but is that all that matters to an atheist?

Does it only matter that religiously minded people leave atheists alone?
Would atheists rather spirituality of any sort be eliminated for its irrationality?

If organized religion left atheism alone... would atheists really care about the infallibility of religious scripture or belief?

Not affect my atheism, no, but affect my world, sure.

Thank you

 

[LuisDantas]

I have started to wonder about something. Obviousely, atheists have a hard time seeing truth in organized religion, and any other sort of spirituality.

Not so obviously. Atheism is not (and does not necessarily goes together with) any sort of aversion to religion. Belief in God is related to religion only in the most accidental and immaterial ways, in fact.

However, how do atheists actually feel about something like mysticism? Is it all the same hogwash, or is there a difference between attending church and doing "your own thing" as it were?

The way I see it, mysticism is a form of religion. Isn't it?

Anyway, doing one's own thing may easily be worse than attending church. The wisdom of one person is hardly safer or deeper than that of many.

Can there be any good lessons from either teaching that happen to affect your atheism?

Sure. I don't think I understood your questions very well, however.

 

[BucephalusBB]

Do you ever find that looking to mysticism can help bring balance to your life? Does atheism have "all the answers"? Of course, no one person has all the answers... that would be silly, but do you get what I mean?

I do not follow atheism, atheism follows me.
There are no strict rules to follow/think. And what I think happens to be that wich humanity calls atheism.
What I mean is that the question: "Does atheism have all the answers?", has no real meaning as I do not follow atheism only. I search for answers and those answers happen to be in the workingarea of the atheist. Like that, atheism does have all the answers, but only because my own search lead me there. (remember, does it have all answers and does it have all correct answers are different questions)

Now it is your turn to explain "balance"

 

[LuisDantas]

(Yes, I know these questions were meant for Willamena)

Do you ever find that looking to mysticism can help bring balance to your life? Does atheism have "all the answers"? Of course, no one person has all the answers... that would be silly, but do you get what I mean?

Atheism is not meant to have any answers other than that for "Is there any god?"

Many mystics dont' really go to church as it were. I suppose you'd get on easier with Mystics because they tend not to push their beliefs on others... but is that all that matters to an atheist?

Maybe, or maybe not. The two matters are pretty much unrelated, really. Or shall I say, the four matters:

- Atheism: disbelief in any gods
- Mysticism (as however you define it)
- Church-going
- Pushing one's beliefs onto others

Islam and Christianity often claim that the two last items must go together and oppose the first one (no idea where or if Mysticism fits in), but that is very much just that, a claim from these two Abrahamic faiths. And not necessarily universal even there, at that.

Generally speaking, other than Mysticism, there is not much correlation (either positive or negative) among the other three matters you mentioned.

Does it only matter that religiously minded people leave atheists alone?

I don't know that it is possible for any people to leave others alone.

It is certainly advisable for religious people to respect the rights of others in disagreeing with their own beliefs, but that is a far cry from leaving them alone.

Would atheists rather spirituality of any sort be eliminated for its irrationality?

Some would claim so, yes. I personally don't think such a claim makes much sense, however. Spirituality is not at all opposed to rational thought, except circunstantially.

If organized religion left atheism alone... would atheists really care about the infallibility of religious scripture or belief?

Why, of course I would! That would be true even if I were not religious myself.

Claims of infallibility are a very dangerous poison that must be kept always at bay, if not countered outright. Especially so in religious environments, where they have the most damage potential.

Likewise, belief is a powerful and dangerous tool. Others should always be aware of its risks. And the believer itself actually has a moral duty to be aware of the price and dangers of his/her belief, more so than anyone else.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I have started to wonder about something. Obviousely, atheists have a hard time seeing truth in organized religion, and any other sort of spirituality. However, how do atheists actually feel about something like mysticism? Is it all the same hogwash, or is there a difference between attending church and doing "your own thing" as it were?

Can there be any good lessons from either teaching that happen to affect your atheism?

Hi Buttons, it is my understanding that mysticism is not necessarily confined to religious traditions, but rather transcends them.

A true mystic may have had their start in any of the religious traditions, and presumably non-religious traditions such as atheism, agnosticism, etc., but regardless they would all ultimately come to realize/share with other fellow mystics the same general experience associated with going beyond the mental conceptual belief systems.

True mystics are courageous souls and the difficulty of transcending a religious belief system is equally as difficult as transcending a non-religious belief system.

To be a mystic, one must go beyond conceptual reality, and face the conceptual devils and angels, heavens and hells, eternity and extinction, etc., to find the truth.

As the saying goes, the proof of the pudding is in the eating,...and for those who realize,... well that's the mystery only enlightenment reveals.

 

[Willamena]

Would atheists rather spirituality of any sort be eliminated for its irrationality?

I certainly wouldn't. I'm a huge fan of imaginaiton.

 

[Valjean]

I have started to wonder about something. Obviousely, atheists have a hard time seeing truth in organized religion, and any other sort of spirituality.

Where did you come up with this major premise? You're over-complicating things. "Thruth?" "spirituality?" -- what do these have to do with this?

However, how do atheists actually feel about something like mysticism? Is it all the same hogwash, or is there a difference between attending church and doing "your own thing" as it were?

Are you conflating mysticism with "doing your own thing?" I don't see mysticism in this way.

Can there be any good lessons from either teaching that happen to affect your atheism?

Mysticism is a universal and well-known phenomonon. There's no impediment to an athiest taking an interest in it that I can see.

 

[Buttons*]

Where did you come up with this major premise? You're over-complicating things. "Thruth?" "spirituality?" -- what do these have to do with this?

I came up with it like anyone comes up with ideas... they think of them. I dont' feel that I'm complicating anything... but if you don't understand what I mean, maybe I am! Truth has a LOT to do with how Atheists see the world. They want empirical truths to govern their lives. As for spirituality, there is nothing in it that can really be "proven" outside of the individual. Therefore, since religion is mostly a collective group of spiritual seekers (at least this is my assumption) I have to wonder if there is a difference between why there is little tolerance on atheists when it comes to organized religion versus personal spirituality.

Are you conflating mysticism with "doing your own thing?" I don't see mysticism in this way.

I'm not really conflating anything... I want to hear what people say on the subject. But even if you aren't doing your own thing, it's a completely subjective experience, free from empirical data (almost.). This worldview conflicts with Atheistic beliefs about the world.

Mysticism is a universal and well-known phenomonon. There's no impediment to an athiest taking an interest in it that I can see.

Well, they probably wouldn't take an interest... but I'm asking if they'd dislike it and discount is as much as they tend to do with organized religion.

 

[Buttons*]

Not so obviously. Atheism is not (and does not necessarily goes together with) any sort of aversion to religion. Belief in God is related to religion only in the most accidental and immaterial ways, in fact.

I didn't say that it has to do with aversion to religion, but there is no doubt the worldviews clash between religious and non-religious people. There has been conflict. (Just check the forum!)

The way I see it, mysticism is a form of religion. Isn't it?

... "sort of"

Anyway, doing one's own thing may easily be worse than attending church. The wisdom of one person is hardly safer or deeper than that of many.

But how can we determine this?

Sure. I don't think I understood your questions very well, however.

Maybe not >.< my style of writing can be a little confusing if you don't read my stuff regularly.

 

[Buttons*]

I do not follow atheism, atheism follows me.
There are no strict rules to follow/think. And what I think happens to be that wich humanity calls atheism.
What I mean is that the question: "Does atheism have all the answers?", has no real meaning as I do not follow atheism only. I search for answers and those answers happen to be in the workingarea of the atheist. Like that, atheism does have all the answers, but only because my own search lead me there. (remember, does it have all answers and does it have all correct answers are different questions)

Now it is your turn to explain "balance"

Well... atheists can believe "strict rules" ... I've seen it happen.

Balance... I already forgot what context it was in... >.< I'll look again later

 

[Smoke]

I don't have any problem with mysticism as such; I think I am some sort of mystic. I just don't see any point in attaching deities or dogmas to mysticism.

 

[BucephalusBB]

Well... atheists can believe "strict rules" ... I've seen it happen.

Well, as atheist, I do have strict rules..
I have to be at work from 8 till 5. I have to pay my landlord for living in one of his houses. I have to fill up my car when it gets empty and you get the point by now. None of these strict rules have anything to do with my atheism. Not because I choose to, but because I picked random rules that do not equal:"There is no such thing as a god.".

So here my question would be to give me an example of a rule.

 

[ManTimeForgot]

Mysticism, Philosophy, and Science (sociology and psychology included) must all be reconciled before we can begin our exploration of the deeper regions of reality in earnest.

As to how this reconciliation will take place I have no idea as of yet, but we are still a stew of competing world-views. We will never completely transcend competing ideologies (at least I certainly hope not), but before humanity can become one society (or one unit composed of multiple societies, which is the far more likely outcome in the future) we must unify on world-view.

All our thoughts and ideas undergo a lensing effect through our world-view and some world-views are more "truth-preserving" than others. Complete open-mindedness might be a myth, but that is not reason enough to give up the task of trying for such a state. And while there may be (I believe there is) truth to be found in all belief systems there must necessarily be vary amounts of truth to be found (nothing which is not absolutely equal can contain absolutely equal amounts of any part).


The monumental task set before humanity is to give up on clinging to absolute belief systems, adopt a stance of intellectual humility, adopt a policy of acceptance of non-injurious behaviors/life-styles, and give up the quest for complete objectivity.

Education, introspection, and personal faith all go a long way towards making a complete individual, but none are by themselves sufficient to make an individual complete.



In the years to come humanity will bend or break on whether or not we can allow science, philosophy, and mysticism/spirituality to become wide-spread. Simply increasing the power of our senses is insufficient to fully understand the world around us. We must gain new senses (ideally ones that are able to interact with new areas of the cosmos). We must gain insight into ourselves (something that will require mysticism/spirituality to accomplish). And most importantly we must begin the quest to reconcile the three above perspectives; for alone none of the above have the power to propel humanity into a future of understand the deepest mysteries of the cosmos.


Yes, you heard me correctly. Science alone does not have the power to understand all the mysteries of the cosmos. Complete objectivity is a myth. We cannot fully stand apart from the system we are contained within. Quantum reality links cause and effect, actor and reactor, event and observer, etc. The deeper truths that lie beyond quantum reality will therefore have to be able to be understood in a non-objective manner. Even if we are not yet at the point where we cannot "break down the universe any further without meaning" there will come a point where we cannot do so and at that point it will be tasked to philosophy and mysticism/spirituality to "pick up the slack."

This is not to say that along the way to where-ever science will take us that philosophy and mysticism/spirituality will not be trying to guide us in the right direction. Logic and personal belief (intuition and faith) are the only guides that people without voices in their heads have to go on. We must embrace our truths; if we turn out to be wrong, then so be it. But humanity will fail, stall, or progress based upon whether and how many people are true to themselves and pursue their understanding and beliefs to the fullest.

MTF

 

[LuisDantas]

I have started to wonder about something. Obviousely, atheists have a hard time seeing truth in organized religion, and any other sort of spirituality. However, how do atheists actually feel about something like mysticism? Is it all the same hogwash, or is there a difference between attending church and doing "your own thing" as it were?

Can there be any good lessons from either teaching that happen to affect your atheism?

Sure there are. But I think your premises need some work. The links among theism, atheism, mysticism and organized religion sound a bit off to me.

For one thing, there is a sizeable percentage of people who claim to believe in God but refuse organized religion. Sounds somewhat backwards to me, but so are the facts.

As for mysticism, it is not inherently safer or best than organized religion, far as I can see. It certainly allows for more variety and less external interference, but I don't know that this is a good thing. Quite a few mystics end up losing their way alone as opposed to in group - and in these matters a healthy group can be a very good aid indeed.

 

[LuisDantas]

But how can we determine this?

Wisdom must always be evaluated by the consequences of following it.

 

[sandandfoam]

I don't understand how an atheist could be a mystic? If someone substitutes reality with a capital 'R' for God isn't it essentially the same thing as God?

 

[Storm]

The way I see it, mysticism is a form of religion. Isn't it?

I can't speak for Buttons, of course, but...

Not at all. Generally speaking, religion is, imo, what happens when the ideas of mystics get set in stone.

IOW, mysticism is trying to figure it out for yourself, whereas religion is passively agreeing with what you're told.

 

[Storm]

I don't understand how an atheist could be a mystic?

Well, just off the top of my head, by practicing mysticism: most commonly a meditation regime seeking to induce mystical experiences.

If someone substitutes reality with a capital 'R' for God isn't it essentially the same thing as God?

Arguably, but not necessarily. It depends largely on how one defines "God."