Pronouns Matter - Understanding the Christian God

[Quintessence]

In recent religion-related news, the Church of England has been exploring the pronouns used to refer to the Christian God. Theologian Annie Selak writes:

"When we speak about God, we do so knowing that what we say is incomplete. All images for God reveal something about God. No image of God is literal or reveals everything about God.

...

Pronouns, like “He/Him” in the Christian tradition, can limit one’s understanding of God. It can also make many individuals think that God is male.

It is not wrong to refer to God with male pronouns, but it can have negative social and theological consequences to refer to God with only male pronouns.

Feminist theologian Mary Daly famously stated, “If God is male, then the male is God.” In other words, referring to God only as the male gender has a significant social impact that can exalt one gender at the expense of others.

Referring to God only as male can also limit one’s theological imagination: Using many pronouns for God emphasizes that God is mystery, beyond all human categories."
--- From Why the pronouns used for God matter ​

The entire article is definitely worth a read. Beyond Christianity, the way we can talk about the gods is limited by the confines of whatever languages we learned to speak. Many religious traditions outside of Christianity recognize the limitations of using language to describe the fundamentally indescribable, though it is a particular issue for more abstract or transcendent god-concepts like those found in the Abrahamic religions. And how we talk about the gods matters. Could something as simple as pronouns appended to the gods really play that big of a role in how we approach Them (or should I say Him or Her)?

 

[Viker]

I have nine deities. Four referred to in the masculine, four in the feminine, one as neither. This is used to imply a natural and tentative purpose to demonstrate balance never implying that they are actual anatomical male/female.

 

[sun rise]

This thread reminded me of a poem from "I Heard God Laughing"

Once a young woman asked me,
“How does it feel to be a man?”
And I replied,

“My dear, I am not so sure.”
Then she said. “Well aren’t you a man?”

And this time I replied,

“I view gender as a beautiful animal
That people often take for a walk on a leash,
And might enter in some odd contest
To try to win strange prizes.

My dear,
A better question for Hafiz
Would have been,

‘How does it feel to be a Heart?’

For all I know is love,
And I find my heart Infinite
And everywhere!”

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The problem is even more complex in Hebrew, where every noun has gender (to which every associated verb conforms).

 

[Sirona]

Well, @Quintessence ,

Most cultures are undeniably patriarchal, whether you like it or not. It's no wonder that they imagine their deities the same way.

Babies are first completely dependent on the mother, only in the toddler stage then also the father begins to be significant. In the same way, the first religions were goddess religions, "Mother Earth", etc,

In Hinduism, there is the concept of "rasa", which describes the nature of the relationship with God. The rasa of Christianity is the relationship of the child to the father. It is a truism that mothers usually pamper their children and fulfill their every wish, while the father embodies authority and can be strict at times. That's why young children usually think of their father as "all-powerful."

Moreover, there is this dualism of
Yang/Yin
male/female
light/dark etc.

it exists in quite a lot of cultures. When I was a teenager, I found this dichotomy simply discriminatory, but now, through study of religions and personal meditation, I believe there might be something substantial to it. It is dark inside the womb of the mother.

Of course, this is just a scheme, but like any scheme, it can be adapted. Mary, for example, is female but belongs to the light because she literally rejected/overcame the pleasure principle and out of obedience to the Father's authority had no "fun" and therefore no ego/power feelings when she conceived her son.

I hope this makes some kind of sense to you.

 

[Sirona]

This thread reminded me of a poem from "I Heard God Laughing"

“I view gender as a beautiful animal
That people often take for a walk on a leash,
And might enter in some odd contest
To try to win strange prizes.

As a man, you can be "feminine" (long hair, wearing dresses) wihile still be regarded as a male, whereas a woman wearing men's clothes is not automatically considered "masculine" unless she is a bodybuilder or something like that. Back when I had friends who were trans, in the city were I lived there were a couple of gay bars but just one single bar for lesbians (that's where we would meet), although I would have assumed that the ratio would be 50/50. In some Islamic countries with gender segregation, men dressing up as women or eunuchs can mingle with the woman crowd, wheras a girl cannot simply put men's clothes and mingle with the men crowd.

I think it's fairly easy to say gender doesn't matter as long as you're part of a privileged sex or gender.

 

[The Hammer]

Could something as simple as pronouns appended to the gods really play that big of a role in how we approach Them (or should I say Him or Her)?

Absolutely, as.your linked quote states: if we refer to the Gods as Male (or female), than that is how they are conceived; even though in reality the Gods are more or less beyond our notion of "gender".

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

The Christian God made a woman named Mary pregnant with a son. I think that is enough to refer to God as male because I never heard of a woman being made pregnant by another female.

 

[Left Coast]

The Christian God made a woman named Mary pregnant with a son. I think that is enough to refer to God as male because I never heard of a woman being made pregnant by another female.

I've never heard of a woman being magically impregnated as a virgin by an incorporeal spirit either, but here we are.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

I've never heard of a woman being magically impregnated as a virgin by an incorporeal spirit either, but here we are.

I am pretty sure you have heard of it but just do not believe it.

 

[Left Coast]

I am pretty sure you have heard of it but just do not believe it.

In real life? No, I've never heard of it.

 

[Sand Dancer]

In recent religion-related news, the Church of England has been exploring the pronouns used to refer to the Christian God. Theologian Annie Selak writes:

"When we speak about God, we do so knowing that what we say is incomplete. All images for God reveal something about God. No image of God is literal or reveals everything about God.

...

Pronouns, like “He/Him” in the Christian tradition, can limit one’s understanding of God. It can also make many individuals think that God is male.

It is not wrong to refer to God with male pronouns, but it can have negative social and theological consequences to refer to God with only male pronouns.

Feminist theologian Mary Daly famously stated, “If God is male, then the male is God.” In other words, referring to God only as the male gender has a significant social impact that can exalt one gender at the expense of others.

Referring to God only as male can also limit one’s theological imagination: Using many pronouns for God emphasizes that God is mystery, beyond all human categories."
--- From Why the pronouns used for God matter ​

The entire article is definitely worth a read. Beyond Christianity, the way we can talk about the gods is limited by the confines of whatever languages we learned to speak. Many religious traditions outside of Christianity recognize the limitations of using language to describe the fundamentally indescribable, though it is a particular issue for more abstract or transcendent god-concepts like those found in the Abrahamic religions. And how we talk about the gods matters. Could something as simple as pronouns appended to the gods really play that big of a role in how we approach Them (or should I say Him or Her)?

I don't know too many creators who acted alone. Having to begat is the best a male god can do.

 

[Quintessence]

I don't know too many creators who acted alone. Having to begat is the best a male god can do.

Something I think the author of the article does a good job of drawing attention to is the problem of literalism. That is, the Christian god is and never was literally male/human (incarnation of Jesus notwithstanding). So to anthropomorphize gods (the Christian one or otherwise) as "male" because of use of human species sex pronouns like "male" presents some problems from a theological standpoint. Limiting the idea of creators to human sexual reproduction is another literalism that misses the mark in terms of understanding what God (and many other gods) is, yeah?

 

[Brickjectivity]

Pronouns, like “He/Him” in the Christian tradition, can limit one’s understanding of God. It can also make many individuals think that God is male.

Yes, true in my experience.

It is not wrong to refer to God with male pronouns, but it can have negative social and theological consequences to refer to God with only male pronouns.

Yes, and it feels weird to talk about God in other than male pronouns. In my opinion the best bridge is to begin by understanding why male pronouns are required sometimes -- since male pronouns are what we are used to. Acknowledge these first. This is a mental trick to help us not to worry that we are tossing out something important. If we are afraid, then this is a huge block to clear thinking. So its good to know why we are using male pronouns when we do and to not just think of it as its own reason. Then we can feel comfortable understanding what female pronouns can do or are for.

Inheritance comes through fathers in Judaism, and in Christianity there is a lot of emphasis upon inheritance: inheriting peace, being heirs of Abraham. This shows up in a lot of NT letters which talk about adoption and inheritance. The terms are used in many ways. The term father is about inheritance of riches that are not physical, and in this respect all Christians are sons, including the girls. This is the core for understanding when and in what way male pronouns are important in the religion. Outside of this there is room for English.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I have nine deities. Four referred to in the masculine, four in the feminine, one as neither. This is used to imply a natural and tentative purpose to demonstrate balance never implying that they are actual anatomical male/female.

Nine, eh? What makes that seem obvious to you, in a potentially infinite universe with anywhere between zero and an infinite number of gods -- and nothing particularly obvious to guide you?

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

The Christian God made a woman named Mary pregnant with a son. I think that is enough to refer to God as male because I never heard of a woman being made pregnant by another female.

Do you think that actually happened with physical intercourse?

 

[Viker]

Nine, eh? What makes that seem obvious to you, in a potentially infinite universe with anywhere between zero and an infinite number of gods -- and nothing particularly obvious to guide you?

The cyclic property of the value of nine. I've maintained there are others, however. Likely nine times nine time nine and so on. These nine best represent the wholeness of the divine in unity for me. It's also an expression of the branching out of eight from one point to create balance. Like a hydra.

There's also the nine muses from classic Greek lore. Nine major deities in at least a few pagan traditions. There are nine worlds in Norse tradition. The value nine pops up quite often.

 

[1213]

...Could something as simple as pronouns appended to the gods really play that big of a role in how we approach Them (or should I say Him or Her)?

I think truth is what matters to God. If the truth is that God is the Father, as told in the Bible, it is false to call Him her in that case.

You shall not steal; neither shall you deal falsely, nor lie to one another.
Lev. 19:11

Yahweh, who shall dwell in your sanctuary? Who shall live on your holy hill? He who walks blamelessly does what is right, And speaks truth in his heart;
Ps. 15:1

 

[wellwisher]

In classic symbolism, the male principle is connected to spirit, while the female principle is connected to matter. Nobody ever whines about Mother Nature being female, since common sense tells us the female element is connected to physical birth based on matter. Would Father nature even make sense, since the image of mother nature is of birth and rebirth. The Father has a limited role compared to pregnancy.

Men are more associated with ideas, which are often referred to as brain children. The male creative spirit still dominate culture. Women tend to be more derivative that way; learn in school. Given birth from the brain; data manipulation, was referred to as spirit. Unlike matter which is tangible, spirit is not tangible, until it becomes expressed in matter. This is how the male sperm cell acts upon the female egg. Through the female element, the sperm's genetic data gradually takes on the male attributes, mediated through matter.

There is another set of male and female symbolism connected to Adam and Eve and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Eve is tempted first. This symbolism is about learned knowledge and language, which is how the female brain is wired; side to side. This is where language is processed.

Eve then coaxes Adam to eat. Adam or the male brain is wired front to back allowing him to see; inner vision, independently of spoken or written language. It took pressure from Satan; male principle, and Eve; female; for Adam to deny his natural common sense, and go along with this artificial external knowledge illusion, that appeal edto the female brain, which is wired differently.

Men often play language games; sweet talk and charm the ladies or make them upset, with their words of good and evil. Women play visual games, with material makeup, to trick the male brain to infer, so his inner spirit; thoughts, becoming obsessed with her; need to procreate so his spirit can become manifest in her matter.

The symbolism of God the Father being spirit, is a tradition that tells us that God is not matter; cannot be derived from natural observations via science. Rather God will be more evident in the manipulation of the matter of nature; human creativity within nature; civilization.

The symbolism is about the natural difference of male and female brains and nature with natural/pure science more feminine; Mother Nature, while technology and applied science that transforms nature, more masculine; spirit acting on nature.

The virgin birth symbolism of Jesus and other examples in classic traditions, stresses the work of the spirit becoming manifest, but not exactly from mother nature and matter. It is more spirit orientated; beyond what s expected from mother nature; virgin birth is not natural for humans. This symbolism connects us to the history of modern humans, who were able to alter nature for better and worse; good and evil spirits.

The question I would ask is what good does all the gender bending bring, beyond the ego? It appear to be from an evil spirit; male, acting on matter; surgery and drugs. How does the final product differ from feminine, "makeup" for visual appeal? How does it enhance the male spirit?

 

[Debater Slayer]

The problem is even more complex in Hebrew, where every noun has gender (to which every associated verb conforms).

Same in Arabic.