Proof of Pre-Existence

[Brian2]

4416. prototokos pro-tot-ok'-os from 4413 and the alternate of 5088; first-born (usually as noun, literally or figuratively):--firstbegotten(-born).

“the firstborn of all creation.” This phrase refers to Christ being the firstfruits of those raised from the dead (cp. 1 Cor. 15:20). The Greek is “the firstborn of all creation” (or, “the firstborn of every creature,” since there is no article before “creation”), but the exact significance of the genitive is debated. One natural reading of the genitive case is the partitive genitive, which would be saying that Jesus is the firstborn one of the rest of creation, which is true and makes sense, since Jesus was indeed the first person ever to be raised from the dead in a new, everlasting body. However that interpretation is rejected by Trinitarians, not because of grammar, but because they claim that Jesus was not in fact part of the creation at all, but is actually the eternal God.

I can be a trinitarian and believe that the pre existing, uncreated Jesus stepped into His creation when He became a man.

 

[Soapy]

I understand that in most cases it means the firstborn, 1) of man or beast; 2) of Christ, the first born of all creation. [prototokos - compound from protos meaning 1) first in time or place, a. in any succession of things or persons; 2) first in rank, a. influence, honor, b. chief, c. principal; 3) first, at the first and tikto meaning 1) to bring forth, bear, produce (fruit from seed), a. of a woman giving birth, b. of the earth bringing forth its fruits; c. metaph. to bear, bring forth] Please note that I am only referring to the Colossians 1:15, 18 usage and I believe it to refer to Christ being the firstborn of the NEW CREATION, the head of the church and as the head holds the body together - Christ holds the church together placing him first in rank, i.e. preeminence and also holding preeminence in being the firstborn out from among the dead, i.e. the first in the succession of human beings to be brought forth from the dead.

I believe that where the Trinitarian error comes in is to apply "first born of all creation" to "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth". I do not see any reference to "the greatest love of the Father" in any definition.

The above is a whole other subject but I do agree with what you have said about worship.

My point was to do with the fact that certain words were deliberately mis-used so as to make it appear that they support the trinity fallacy so it is not a whole different subject - it’s ANOTHER part of the SAME subject.

 

[Soapy]

One who was equal to God, became a servant of God for our sake.

Ha ha ha… Brian2, jester say that you make me laugh so much!!!

1) Some one (or thing) that is EQUAL to another IS NOT that other… Jesus, EVEN THOUGH he had the POWER OF GOD… Jesus was ANOINTED with the POWER OF GOD…. It means that Jesus had the use of the power of God, and it shows that it was not HIS since he always PRAYED to the Father before he used it. Similar to a son having the keys to his fathers super car BUT always asked his Father before he drove it: the car is NOT the property of the Son; he’s only GRANTED the use of it. When it came to the GIVING THE SPIRIT OF GOD AS A GIFT to the apostles, Jesus said: ‘Wait in Jerusalem until I sent to you THE GIFT FROM THE FATHER…’ (‘I will send you the Father’s holy Spirit’)

2) A God cannot elect to become a SERVANT to his subjects. A God is greater than a King and yet there has never been an instance in humanity of a king setting himself as a surf (servant to a king). In fact, what is the monarchy position IF HE DID… wouldn’t someone else have to become KING…. Oh wait, a deity is not a mortal, a God is ‘Not a man’… so who would become God if such a naff situation could ever be?

3) Brian2, show me a verse where GOD became a human Being…. Only in PAGAN belief is it ever a claim that a deity became a human

Brian2, how much time do you spend coming up with your inconsistent ideologies and do not see that they do not work!!!

 

[Soapy]

Where does that bit come from? The whole bit in revelations about the lamb of god volunteering to stand in the gap is prenatal.

Ummm… what scriptures are you reading?

‘He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David,’ (Luke 1:32)

Is there something wrong with your understanding of Past, Present, and Future tense in language?

Is ‘Will be’ a past, a present, or a future event?

 

[Colt]

Why is Jesus Christ, the only one in the fallacy of a triad of Persons masquerading as one Person entitled ‘God’, controversially pre-existent - but is said to BECOME GREAT ONLY AFTER being born as a human child?

Consider these verses in your response:

“… I (YHWH) WILL BECOME his father, and he WILL BECOME my son” (Hebrews 1:5)

“He WILL BE great and WILL BE called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God (YHWH) WILL GIVE HIM the throne of his father, [King] David.” (Luke 1:32)

“This is my Son, the one who I (YHWH) have chosen.” (Luke 9:35)

‘The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High (YHWH) will overshadow [the virgin mary]. THEREFORE the holy one to be born WILL BE CALLED the Son of God.’ (Luke 1:35)

How can some who is pre-existent (as God) only ‘To be a Son’, ‘To become great’, ‘To acquire an earthly throne’?

Is this a case of a ‘Greater become a Lesser’ - and why in Heaven or on earth would a GOD desire to be his own creation:

• Does a comic book animator desire to become a character he has created in his comic book?
• Does an Aquarist who owns his fish and maintains them in an aquarium desire to become a fish in that aquarium?

“Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son may glorify You. 2For You granted Him authority over all people,a so that He may give eternal life to all those You have given Him. 3Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent. 4I have glorified You on earth by accomplishing the work You gave Me to do. 5And now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed.

Jesus was often cryptic but while speaking plainly at the same time.

 

[Tomef]

Ummm… what scriptures are you reading?

‘He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David,’ (Luke 1:32)

Is there something wrong with your understanding of Past, Present, and Future tense in language?

Is ‘Will be’ a past, a present, or a future event?

Wow, are you always instantly obnoxious?

If you think the use of the future tense, in translation, in one verse somehow proves your point, you should read a bit more. You need to parse that verse even as it stands if you think it proves your notion of the son character only being ‘great’ after being called the son. But I’ll sure you’ll continue to insist that your random notion is somehow a terrific insight.

Verses like

12 “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man (g)according to what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

And

John 17:5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

among others make it fairly clear that, at least as far as the writers of the bible were concerned, Jesus has been covered in glory for whatever they mean by eternity, and is the beginning and end of all things. I don’t know why I’m bothering to point that out however, as I’m sure you’ll just come back with some nonsense about the particular use of the word ‘great’.

 

[Soapy]

I can be a trinitarian and believe that the pre existing, uncreated Jesus stepped into His creation when He became a man.

But that wouldn’t be Christian.

But call yourself a Pagan and, sure, believe what you like!!

 

[Soapy]

Wow, are you always instantly obnoxious?

I’m obnoxious to those who speak and spread fallacy as though it’s truth…

You get used to me, though! As you spout more incredible nonsense you will start to realise that your fallacy will only be opposed by real truth and you then start to get awkward in yourself and become like all Trinitarians: FEARFUL every time you see my posts!!!

If you think the use of the future tense, in translation, in one verse somehow proves your point, you should read a bit more. You need to parse that verse even as it stands if you think it proves your notion of the son character only being ‘great’ after being called the son. But I’ll sure you’ll continue to insist that your random notion is somehow a terrific insight.

Verses like

12 “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man (g)according to what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

And

John 17:5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

among others make it fairly clear that, at least as far as the writers of the bible were concerned, Jesus has been covered in glory for whatever they mean by eternity, and is the beginning and end of all things. I don’t know why I’m bothering to point that out however, as I’m sure you’ll just come back with some nonsense about the particular use of the word ‘great’.

You post a trinitarian altered verse and think that you are proving something?

Ha ha ha… You don’t even see that you are proving AGAINST yourself:

• If the verse is true then Jesus IS NOT GREAT and is begging the Father to MAKE HIM SO…
• If the Father makes Jesus GREAT then THAT IS A FUTURE ACT…
• Jesus was RAISED UP TO HEAVEN and seated AT THE SIDE OF GOD (the Father). Then LATER God says: ‘Let all the angels bow down to him’ because ‘He has become so much GREATER than his companions…

I think you need to reread your Bible scriptures and set things in chronological order before you post again….!!!!

 

[Soapy]

“Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son may glorify You. 2For You granted Him authority over all people,a so that He may give eternal life to all those You have given Him. 3Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent. 4I have glorified You on earth by accomplishing the work You gave Me to do. 5And now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed.

Jesus was often cryptic but while speaking plainly at the same time.

Colt… how can one be cryptic AND plain AT TYE SAME TIME??

Is that cryptic… or plain… what you just said?

‘In the past I have spoken to you of heavenly things, ‘ (Cryptically) ‘But from now on I will speak to you plainly’!!

Interesting how you so easily speak in doodle-splat!!!

 

[Colt]

Colt… how can one be cryptic AND plain AT TYE SAME TIME??

Is that cryptic… or plain… what you just said?

‘In the past I have spoken to you of heavenly things, ‘ (Cryptically) ‘But from now on I will speak to you plainly’!!

Interesting how you so easily speak in doodle-splat!!!

Jesus explaied it:
The Purpose of Jesus’ Parables
(Isaiah 6:1–13; Mark 4:10–12; Luke 8:9–10)

10Then the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Why do You speak to the people in parables?”

11He replied, “The knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 13This is why I speak to them in parables:

‘Though seeing, they do not see;

though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

Some understand Jesus when he spoke of his preexistence, you don't------>though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

Thats what is meant by cryptic!

 

[Tomef]

I’m obnoxious to those who speak and spread fallacy as though it’s truth…

You get used to me, though! As you spout more incredible nonsense you will start to realise that your fallacy will only be opposed by real truth and you then start to get awkward in yourself and become like all Trinitarians: FEARFUL every time you see my posts!!!

You post a trinitarian altered verse and think that you are proving something?

Ha ha ha… You don’t even see that you are proving AGAINST yourself:

• If the verse is true then Jesus IS NOT GREAT and is begging the Father to MAKE HIM SO…
• If the Father makes Jesus GREAT then THAT IS A FUTURE ACT…
• Jesus was RAISED UP TO HEAVEN and seated AT THE SIDE OF GOD (the Father). Then LATER God says: ‘Let all the angels bow down to him’ because ‘He has become so much GREATER than his companions…

I think you need to reread your Bible scriptures and set things in chronological order before you post again….!!!!

Well, you see, Alpha comes at the beginning...

However you have clearly moved far beyond the ability to question your own odd notions, so, well, may they bring you endless hours of pointless typing out trite posts on the internet. Everyone needs a hobby I suppose.

 

[amazing grace]

I can be a trinitarian and believe that the pre existing, uncreated Jesus stepped into His creation when He became a man.

Jesus did not literally pre-exist his birth but he did pre-exist in the mind and plan of God. He did not "step into His creation" - whatever that means! To exist is to have objective reality or being, be living, have life - so how does something or someone exist before they actually exist - one can be before they are?

 

[Colt]

Jesus did not literally pre-exist his birth but he did pre-exist in the mind and plan of God. He did not "step into His creation" - whatever that means! To exist is to have objective reality or being, be living, have life - so how does something or someone exist before they actually exist - one can be before they are?

Jesus never said that he was a glorified “plan” before this world was.

 

[Soapy]

Jesus explaied it:
The Purpose of Jesus’ Parables
(Isaiah 6:1–13; Mark 4:10–12; Luke 8:9–10)

10Then the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Why do You speak to the people in parables?”

11He replied, “The knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 13This is why I speak to them in parables:

‘Though seeing, they do not see;

though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

Some understand Jesus when he spoke of his preexistence, you don't------>though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

Thats what is meant by cryptic!

Colt, you said ‘… AT THE SAME TIME’.

Jesus explained his ‘cryptic’ saying AFTERWARDS only to the disciples and to those who enquired of him.

You are at fault, admit it and move on but think before you kneejerk your posts next time.

 

[Soapy]

Jesus never said that he was a glorified “plan” before this world was.

Colt, It’s not what @AmazingGrace said nor meant.

From the book of Genesis God inferred that salvation would come through the seed of a woman, a pure born human being.

The problem is that trinitarian ideologists try to claim that this ‘seed of a woman’ already existed from eternity, pre-existed the creation of all things, was never created, never born from God… and other such nonsense.

@amazinggrace is one who claims that IT WAS IN THE PLAN OF GOD from the beginning … which is what is shown when God said where the deliverer would come from…. GOD HAD THE PLAN … not ‘Jesus said it’.

It’s twice now in a few posts that you have erred incredibly badly… do you think you need to get some coffee or other ‘wake up’ stimulant before you post again?

 

[Soapy]

Well, you see, Alpha comes at the beginning...

However you have clearly moved far beyond the ability to question your own odd notions, so, well, may they bring you endless hours of pointless typing out trite posts on the internet. Everyone needs a hobby I suppose.

‘Alpha and Omega’ simply means ‘The only one’.

Try it and see….:
Q - Why do you think ALMIGHTY GOD is an ‘Alpha and Omega’ …
A - Because He is our ‘ONLY GOD’

Q - Why do you think Jesus Christ is an ‘Alpha and Omega’ …
A - Because he is our ‘ONLY Lord’

Q - Why is Jesus Christ the Alpha and Omega of salvation
A - Becausd Jesus is the ONLY ONE who can mediate for us towards Almighty God

Q - Why is Jesus ‘The Head of the Body’ of the Church of God
A - Because there can be ONLY ONE HEAD (‘The Alpha and Omega’ - One Only)

There are many examples of GOD being THE ONLY ONE… and there are many more examples of Jesus Christ being ‘THE ONLY ONE’ each in a great context.

If you can provide a context where ‘Alpha and Omega’ means anything other than ‘The Only One’ then please show me!!

Perhaps you can also show how:

• ‘First and Last’

and:

• ‘Beginning and End’

DO NOT mean ‘THE ONLY ONE’!!

 

[amazing grace]

Jesus never said that he was a glorified “plan” before this world was.

I believe you knew what I meant when I said, "he did pre-exist in the mind and plan of God" and if not just read Gen. 3:15.
However, the question I posted wasn't answered - so how does something or someone exist before they actually exist - one can be before they are?

 

[Colt]

I believe you knew what I meant when I said, "he did pre-exist in the mind and plan of God" and if not just read Gen. 3:15.
However, the question I posted wasn't answered - so how does something or someone exist before they actually exist - one can be before they are?

The premise of your question is false! Jesu, the Son of God and creator of this world did exist from the eternal past, but those who do not believe such a revelation rationalize in their minds that Jesus reference to his preexistence as simply being a "plan" in Gods head!

 

[Colt]

Colt, It’s not what @AmazingGrace said nor meant.

From the book of Genesis God inferred that salvation would come through the seed of a woman, a pure born human being.

The problem is that trinitarian ideologists try to claim that this ‘seed of a woman’ already existed from eternity, pre-existed the creation of all things, was never created, never born from God… and other such nonsense.

@amazinggrace is one who claims that IT WAS IN THE PLAN OF GOD from the beginning … which is what is shown when God said where the deliverer would come from…. GOD HAD THE PLAN … not ‘Jesus said it’.

It’s twice now in a few posts that you have erred incredibly badly… do you think you need to get some coffee or other ‘wake up’ stimulant before you post again?

Genesis doesn't say anything about salvation coming through the seed of a women. that's pure speculation and conjecture that was NEVER uttered by Jesus!

 

[Colt]

Colt, you said ‘… AT THE SAME TIME’.

Jesus explained his ‘cryptic’ saying AFTERWARDS only to the disciples and to those who enquired of him.

You are at fault, admit it and move on but think before you kneejerk your posts next time.

You have the knee jerk problem; Jesus didn't always explain the meaning of his saying to his apostles afterwards.

Example:
On account of this, the Jews demanded, “What sign can You show us to prove Your authority to do these things?”

19Jesus answered, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up again.”
This temple took forty-six years to build,” the Jews replied, “and You are going to raise it up in three days?”

21But Jesus was speaking about the temple of His body. 22After He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this. Then they believed the Scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken.