Proof of Pre-Existence

[Brian2]

Ha ha ha… Brian2, jester say that you make me laugh so much!!!

1) Some one (or thing) that is EQUAL to another IS NOT that other… Jesus, EVEN THOUGH he had the POWER OF GOD… Jesus was ANOINTED with the POWER OF GOD…. It means that Jesus had the use of the power of God, and it shows that it was not HIS since he always PRAYED to the Father before he used it. Similar to a son having the keys to his fathers super car BUT always asked his Father before he drove it: the car is NOT the property of the Son; he’s only GRANTED the use of it. When it came to the GIVING THE SPIRIT OF GOD AS A GIFT to the apostles, Jesus said: ‘Wait in Jerusalem until I sent to you THE GIFT FROM THE FATHER…’ (‘I will send you the Father’s holy Spirit’)

But you know that Trinitarians do not say that the Son is the Father.
You should also know that when Jesus became a man after being equal to God in heaven (as Philipians 2 tells us) that He did not use His equal power but as a man, relied on His Father for all thing.
Jesus owned all that belonged to the Father (John 16:15) but as a servant and a man and the Son, He always prayed to His Father.
The Holy Spirit was His to send and He actually gave His disciples the Holy Spirit by breathing on them (John 20:22). What Jesus was going to send was the anointing to do the work they were to do,,,,,,,,,,, and this is what the Holy Spirit did also with Jesus when He was baptised,,,,,,, anointed Him for His ministry. It did not make Jesus into God's Son.

2) A God cannot elect to become a SERVANT to his subjects. A God is greater than a King and yet there has never been an instance in humanity of a king setting himself as a surf (servant to a king). In fact, what is the monarchy position IF HE DID… wouldn’t someone else have to become KING…. Oh wait, a deity is not a mortal, a God is ‘Not a man’… so who would become God if such a naff situation could ever be?

The Son came to die to save us humans. That sounds like serving to me.
YHWH is our only saviour,,,,,,,,,,,, that is serving humanity to redeem us.

3) Brian2, show me a verse where GOD became a human Being…. Only in PAGAN belief is it ever a claim that a deity became a human

Brian2, how much time do you spend coming up with your inconsistent ideologies and do not see that they do not work!!!

Someone who is equal to God became a man. (Philipians 2)
Anyone who is equal to YHWH has to be YHWH.
This points to more than one person in YHWH.
If you even believed that Jesus was with God before He became a man you might have to agree with that,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but I suppose that you have been blinded to the true meaning of scriptures that tell us that the Son came from heaven and was going back to heaven, and this would be because you do not want to accept that the Son is in the Father and the Father is in the Son and they are equal in nature.

 

[Colt]

Colt, you said ‘… AT THE SAME TIME’.

Jesus explained his ‘cryptic’ saying AFTERWARDS only to the disciples and to those who enquired of him.

You are at fault, admit it and move on but think before you kneejerk your posts next time.

You have the knee jerk problem; Jesus didn't always explain the meaning of his sayings to his apostles afterwards.

Example:
On account of this, the Jews demanded, “What sign can You show us to prove Your authority to do these things?”

19Jesus answered, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up again.”
This temple took forty-six years to build,” the Jews replied, “and You are going to raise it up in three days?”

21But Jesus was speaking about the temple of His body. 22After He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this. Then they believed the Scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken.

 

[Brian2]

But that wouldn’t be Christian.

But call yourself a Pagan and, sure, believe what you like!!

You do not believe that Jesus was with God and all things were created through Jesus, so you are denying the Bible so you can deny the deity of Jesus.

 

[Tomef]

‘Alpha and Omega’ simply means ‘The only one’.

Try it and see….:
Q - Why do you think ALMIGHTY GOD is an ‘Alpha and Omega’ …
A - Because He is our ‘ONLY GOD’

Q - Why do you think Jesus Christ is an ‘Alpha and Omega’ …
A - Because he is our ‘ONLY Lord’

Q - Why is Jesus Christ the Alpha and Omega of salvation
A - Becausd Jesus is the ONLY ONE who can mediate for us towards Almighty God

Q - Why is Jesus ‘The Head of the Body’ of the Church of God
A - Because there can be ONLY ONE HEAD (‘The Alpha and Omega’ - One Only)

There are many examples of GOD being THE ONLY ONE… and there are many more examples of Jesus Christ being ‘THE ONLY ONE’ each in a great context.

If you can provide a context where ‘Alpha and Omega’ means anything other than ‘The Only One’ then please show me!!

Perhaps you can also show how:

• ‘First and Last’

and:

• ‘Beginning and End’

DO NOT mean ‘THE ONLY ONE’!!

You should listen to this guy (apart from the deathsticks bit, I’m pretty sure that’s not relevant)

 

[Brian2]

Jesus did not literally pre-exist his birth but he did pre-exist in the mind and plan of God. He did not "step into His creation" - whatever that means! To exist is to have objective reality or being, be living, have life - so how does something or someone exist before they actually exist - one can be before they are?

I just use plain scripture to show that Jesus pre existed His birth in reality and that He stepped into His creation because He created everything.

John 1:9 The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. 11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him.

Heb1:1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

John 6:61Aware that His disciples were grumbling about this teaching, Jesus asked them, “Does this offend you? 62Then what will happen if you see the Son of Man ascend to where He was before?

You try to explain away plain scripture and all it means is that you have been blinded to the plain meaning because of your preconceived ideas.

 

[Tomef]

Alpha and Omega’ simply means ‘The only one’.

This is so dumb I feel dumber just for reading it. What on Earth would possess you to take the plain meaning of the beginning and end of all things and turn it into, well, idiocy? I mean it’s all nonsense anyway, but why take something fictional that at least has a certain gravitas and deliberately apply a patently absurd reading? And did you miss ‘I have come again’ in the preceding sentence? Given the context of, I don’t know, the whole NT, who might the fictionalised speaker be?

As literature the bible isn’t all that difficult to decipher, for the most part, and that can be interesting. But once you started bending things around to suit your own silly notions you’re simply electing to consign large amounts of your time to an utterly meaningless pursuit. What do you hope to gain from that?

Don’t respond, just think it through until the penny drops. Backtrack through whatever process led you to think that a reference to the beginning and the end does and can only mean ‘the only one’. Go right back to whenever you first accepted such a dubious train of thought. You’ll thank me later.

 

[Soapy]

Genesis doesn't say anything about salvation coming through the seed of a women. that's pure speculation and conjecture that was NEVER uttered by Jesus!

You are right… Jesus didn’t say that …. GOD inferred it and Jesus ENACTED it.

Please stop saying that Jesus didn’t say it - it’s already agreed that JESUS didn’t SAY those WORDS.

What Jesus SAID about the matter was:

• ‘This means eternal life, that they should believe in You [Almighty God: The Father] are the ONLY TRUE GOD…’

and if was added to by:

• ‘… and in Jesus Christ whom You sent.’

The first and primary concern is in belief in God, the Father; YHWH. But in believing in YHWH it is also a requirement to believe in the SEED OF THE WOMAN whom YHWH stated would be sent as a sacrifice.

 

[Soapy]

But you know that Trinitarians do not say that the Son is the Father.
You should also know that when Jesus became a man after being equal to God in heaven (as Philipians 2 tells us) that He did not use His equal power but as a man, relied on His Father for all thing.
Jesus owned all that belonged to the Father (John 16:15) but as a servant and a man and the Son, He always prayed to His Father.
The Holy Spirit was His to send and He actually gave His disciples the Holy Spirit by breathing on them (John 20:22). What Jesus was going to send was the anointing to do the work they were to do,,,,,,,,,,, and this is what the Holy Spirit did also with Jesus when He was baptised,,,,,,, anointed Him for His ministry. It did not make Jesus into God's Son.



The Son came to die to save us humans. That sounds like serving to me.
YHWH is our only saviour,,,,,,,,,,,, that is serving humanity to redeem us.



Someone who is equal to God became a man. (Philipians 2)
Anyone who is equal to YHWH has to be YHWH.
This points to more than one person in YHWH.
If you even believed that Jesus was with God before He became a man you might have to agree with that,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but I suppose that you have been blinded to the true meaning of scriptures that tell us that the Son came from heaven and was going back to heaven, and this would be because you do not want to accept that the Son is in the Father and the Father is in the Son and they are equal in nature.

What exactly do you mean by ‘Equal in nature’?

Also, are you saying that Jesus is GOD AND is EQUAL TO GOD because they, you say, have the same nature?? Are you saying that two things with the same nature ARE THE ONE SAME THING - a God with TWO PERSONS in him, one of whom is a mutable immutable?

 

[Soapy]

You have the knee jerk problem; Jesus didn't always explain the meaning of his sayings to his apostles afterwards.

Example:
On account of this, the Jews demanded, “What sign can You show us to prove Your authority to do these things?”

19Jesus answered, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up again.”
This temple took forty-six years to build,” the Jews replied, “and You are going to raise it up in three days?”

21But Jesus was speaking about the temple of His body. 22After He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this. Then they believed the Scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken.

Colt, they BELIEVED (Remembered and then understood) what HAD BEEN EXPLAINED to them by Jesus. Jesus had told them but they didn’t BELIEVE (possibly just not understood) at the time. Later, when Jesus was resurrected, they came to the realisation.

 

[Soapy]

You do not believe that Jesus was with God and all things were created through Jesus, so you are denying the Bible so you can deny the deity of Jesus.

The Bible scriptures does not say that Jesus was with God and created all things so I am denying that fallacy.

Jesus Christ is not a DEITY!!!

Jesus Christ said:

• “As it is, you [Jews] are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God.” (John 8:40)

Jesus Christ is a Man (Son of Man) whom will be:

• ‘Coming with the clouds and all eyes will see him!’ (John 8:40)

Said of Jesus Christ:

• ‘Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.’ (Acts 2:22)

 

[Soapy]

You should listen to this guy (apart from the deathsticks bit, I’m pretty sure that’s not relevant)

What’s the point of posting media links to what some unknown quantity has to say - it’s just someone speaking what YOU think you want to hear.

You need to get some wisdom and stop listening to nonsense!! Maybe then you can then post something worthwhile.

 

[Tomef]

What’s the point of posting media links to what some unknown quantity has to say - it’s just someone speaking what YOU think you want to hear.

You need to get some wisdom and stop listening to nonsense!! Maybe then you can then post something worthwhile.

Obi-wan has good advice for you. I would hazard a guess that he knows what Alpha and Omega mean too!

 

[Colt]

Colt, they BELIEVED (Remembered and then understood) what HAD BEEN EXPLAINED to them by Jesus. Jesus had told them but they didn’t BELIEVE (possibly just not understood) at the time. Later, when Jesus was resurrected, they came to the realisation.now t

Colt, they BELIEVED (Remembered and then understood) what HAD BEEN EXPLAINED to them by Jesus. Jesus had told them but they didn’t BELIEVE (possibly just not understood) at the time. Later, when Jesus was resurrected, they came to the realisation.

Jesus hadn’t explained what he meant, they simply recalled the bizarre claim.

“Who do men say that I am?” That question came deep into his public career! Obviously they hadn’t discussed it previously!

 

[Soapy]

Obi-wan has good advice for you. I would hazard a guess that he knows what Alpha and Omega mean too!

• “Alpha and Omega”

as a phrase means exactly the same thing as:

• ‘Beginning and End’

which is also the same as:

• ‘First and Last’

 

[Colt]

You are right… Jesus didn’t say that …. GOD inferred it and Jesus ENACTED it.

Please stop saying that Jesus didn’t say it - it’s already agreed that JESUS didn’t SAY those WORDS.

What Jesus SAID about the matter was:

• ‘This means eternal life, that they should believe in You [Almighty God: The Father] are the ONLY TRUE GOD…’

and if was added to by:

• ‘… and in Jesus Christ whom You sent.’

The first and primary concern is in belief in God, the Father; YHWH. But in believing in YHWH it is also a requirement to believe in the SEED OF THE WOMAN whom YHWH stated would be sent as a sacrifice.

The seed of Eve were her kid that she had with someone other than Adam! His seed were their pure line children.

 

[Soapy]

Jesus hadn’t explained what he meant, they simply recalled the bizarre claim.

“Who do men say that I am?” That question came deep into his public career! Obviously they hadn’t discussed it previously!

How can you say that… The scriptures says that they REMEMBERED…

How are they REMEMBERING something that you say was never told to them BEFOREHAND.

 

[Colt]

How can you say that… The scriptures says that they REMEMBERED…

How are they REMEMBERING something that you say was never told to them BEFOREHAND.

They remembered that HE SAID it! >You< add that he explained it later to the apostles simply because you are too proud to acknowledge a point I made a while back; Jesus was cryptic at times!

 

[Soapy]

The seed of Eve were her kid that she had with someone other than Adam! His seed were their pure line children.

The “SEED OF A WOMAN” has nothing to do with EVE… the first woman.

The words are a term which means, ‘Pure and Holy human Being’. It’s not about a specific person - why did you think of Eve, Adam’s wife??

 

[Soapy]

They remembered that HE SAID it! >You< add that he explained it later to the apostles simply because you are too proud to acknowledge a point I made a while back; Jesus was cryptic at times!

Colt… what are you taking????

Whatever it is - STOP IT!! You’re making yourself look silly and everyone is seeing you do it (mind you, it wouldn’t be the first time, would it!)

 

[amazing grace]

The premise of your question is false! Jesu, the Son of God and creator of this world did exist from the eternal past, but those who do not believe such a revelation rationalize in their minds that Jesus reference to his preexistence as simply being a "plan" in Gods head!

How is the premise of my question false? If the question is, did Jesus personally and consciously exist with God in Heaven before his miraculous conception? or Was the Son of God personally alive before he was conceived in Mary before he became a human being? - then my question is relative.
Jesus was not the creator of this world and Jesus never took credit for being the creator. Scripture clearly gives the distinction of creation to Yahweh alone.

Regarding the Jewish understanding of foreknowledge, the article in the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia is helpful: "the term foreknowledge is an expansion of the idea of God's "counsel" or plan, regarding it as an intelligent prearrangement, the idea of foreknowledge being assimilated to that of foreordination. The same idea is found in 1 Peter 1:20 where the apostle speaks of Christ as a lamb "foreordained" by God before the foundation of the world.....It has the idea of a purpose which determines the course of Divine procedure."
Notional pre-existence is the idea that something or someone may ‘exist’ in the mind of God before actualizing on earth in history at the appointed time. What God purposes and decrees is considered so certain that it is spoken of as though it already exists. . . . As we can see in many instances in scripture - Abraham was promised to be the father of many nations BEFORE he even had children - God's plan for Abraham in the mind of God. All prophecy concerning the coming Messiah - God's plan of redemption set forth throughout scripture and coming to fruition with the birth of His Son, Jesus Christ.