Proof of Pre-Existence

[Colt]

How is the premise of my question false? If the question is, did Jesus personally and consciously exist with God in Heaven before his miraculous conception? or Was the Son of God personally alive before he was conceived in Mary before he became a human being? - then my question is relative.
Jesus was not the creator of this world and Jesus never took credit for being the creator. Scripture clearly gives the distinction of creation to Yahweh alone.

Regarding the Jewish understanding of foreknowledge, the article in the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia is helpful: "the term foreknowledge is an expansion of the idea of God's "counsel" or plan, regarding it as an intelligent prearrangement, the idea of foreknowledge being assimilated to that of foreordination. The same idea is found in 1 Peter 1:20 where the apostle speaks of Christ as a lamb "foreordained" by God before the foundation of the world.....It has the idea of a purpose which determines the course of Divine procedure."
Notional pre-existence is the idea that something or someone may ‘exist’ in the mind of God before actualizing on earth in history at the appointed time. What God purposes and decrees is considered so certain that it is spoken of as though it already exists. . . . As we can see in many instances in scripture - Abraham was promised to be the father of many nations BEFORE he even had children - God's plan for Abraham in the mind of God. All prophecy concerning the coming Messiah - God's plan of redemption set forth throughout scripture and coming to fruition with the birth of His Son, Jesus Christ.

The scripture says that God did NOT tell Moses his name was Yahweh. “Tell them I AM sent you”!

Yahweh was added later.

Jesus wasn’t the Jewish Messiah according to the rigid expectations formulated by the Jews. He IS the Son of God incarnate. Did Gabriel come down from heaven or was he invented for the occasion?

The miracle was the Creator Son becoming Mary’s baby at the human conception of Joseph and Mary's child.

 

[amazing grace]

I just use plain scripture to show that Jesus pre existed His birth in reality and that He stepped into His creation because He created everything.

John 1:9 The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. 11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him.

Heb1:1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

John 6:61Aware that His disciples were grumbling about this teaching, Jesus asked them, “Does this offend you? 62Then what will happen if you see the Son of Man ascend to where He was before?

You try to explain away plain scripture and all it means is that you have been blinded to the plain meaning because of your preconceived ideas.

Well, I see that you also did not answer the question that I put forth - To exist is to have objective reality or being, be living, have life - so how does something or someone exist before they actually exist - one can be before they are?
Instead of answering the question I put forth you presented verses in which you understand to mean that Jesus preexisted and was there and had a hand in creation - when God created the world, i.e. the heaven and the earth.

I also use plain scripture to show that Jesus had an origin/beginning and that origin/beginning was his birth. A literal preexistence is to "read with a preconceived notion of a triune God into the text" - which is eisegesis. Then there is exegesis which is "reading the text through the lens of the context to determine the original intent" - exegesis.

My understanding is that in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth (Gen. 1) and Yahweh ALONE created (Isaiah 37:16, 44:24). My understanding is that God is not a man (Numbers 23:19; Job 9:32; Hosea 11:9) and God is GREATER than man (Job 33:12). My understanding is that Jesus would be a prophet like unto Moses, a prophet raised up by God out from among Moses' brethren, an Israelite and a Jew and God would put His words in his mouth and that prophet would speak God's word in His name - IOW God's plan for the Messiah, His Christ, His servant, His salvation, THE promised Prophet would have God's authority and authorization behind his words.

 

[amazing grace]

The scripture says that God did NOT tell Moses his name was Yahweh. “Tell them I AM sent you”!

Yahweh was added later.

God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. (I am what I am, or I will be what I will be) And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel: "I AM has sent me to you." God also said to Moses, "Say this to the people of Israel: Yahweh (the LORD), the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is my name forever and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations. . . .

Jesus wasn’t the Jewish Messiah according to the rigid expectations formulated by the Jews. He IS the Son of God incarnate. Did Gabriel come down from heaven or was he invented for the occasion?

Correct, their unbelief stemmed from expecting a Messiah to be the triumphant King to deliver them - somehow disregarding the suffering servant aspect of the coming Messiah.
Gabriel was sent to speak to Zechariah (Luke 1:19) - Gabriel was sent from God to Mary (Luke 1:26).

The miracle was the Creator Son becoming Mary’s baby at the human conception of Joseph and Mary's child.

The miracle was the conception of a child, a son, a human being within the womb of Mary via the Holy Spirit, the power of the Most High.

 

[PureX]

“Pre-existence” as a term and a concept doesn’t make any sense. It’s like saying, “beyond infinity”. Debating it as a fact of reality is just an irrational waste of time. The best we can do is imagine what such a mystery might entail and then try to vet it logically. That will give us at least a viable possibility. But it will not give us an answer.

 

[shunyadragon]

The fact that Jesus pre-existed before being born as a human being does not necessarily imply that he existed from eternity.

The Bible says that Jesus pre-existed, but also calls him "the firstborn of all creation" (Col. 1:15).

The only Eternal living being (in past) is the Creator of Jesus, who is called his Father.

Bible says so is not a fact.

 

[Colt]

God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. (I am what I am, or I will be what I will be) And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel: "I AM has sent me to you." God also said to Moses, "Say this to the people of Israel: Yahweh (the LORD), the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is my name forever and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations. . . .

Correct, their unbelief stemmed from expecting a Messiah to be the triumphant King to deliver them - somehow disregarding the suffering servant aspect of the coming Messiah.
Gabriel was sent to speak to Zechariah (Luke 1:19) - Gabriel was sent from God to Mary (Luke 1:26).


The miracle was the conception of a child, a son, a human being within the womb of Mary via the Holy Spirit, the power of the Most High.

The consequence is a local 30+ year old contractor from Nazareth is now in heaven as a God!

 

[amazing grace]

The consequence is a local 30+ year old contractor from Nazareth is now in heaven as a God!

Jesus never was Almighty God, the Most High God.
Christ is now ascended to the right hand of God in heaven and even in heaven as throughout his life he has a God, and that God is his Father.

 

[Colt]

Jesus never was Almighty God, the Most High God.
Christ is now ascended to the right hand of God in heaven and even in heaven as throughout his life he has a God, and that God is his Father.

Father gave creative powers and authority to his Son. After the required incarnation Christ Michael has unquestioned power and authority. He is also God.

“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

You believe differently which is fine! Happy Easter!

 

[Soapy]

God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. (I am what I am, or I will be what I will be) And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel: "I AM has sent me to you." God also said to Moses, "Say this to the people of Israel: Yahweh (the LORD), the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is my name forever and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations. . . .

Correct, their unbelief stemmed from expecting a Messiah to be the triumphant King to deliver them - somehow disregarding the suffering servant aspect of the coming Messiah.
Gabriel was sent to speak to Zechariah (Luke 1:19) - Gabriel was sent from God to Mary (Luke 1:26).


The miracle was the conception of a child, a son, a human being within the womb of Mary via the Holy Spirit, the power of the Most High.

The term, ‘I am’ is taken out of context in the translation.

‘I am’ is the DESCRIPTION or MEANING of the NAME, ‘YHWH’. The meaning should never be used where the NAME is meant to be shown.

For instance: Who would write or say:

1. ‘I am I am who brought you out of Egypt, from among your enemies.’
2. ‘Tell them that the stone has sent you…’
3. ‘God is deliverance led the people of Israel into the promised land’

What’s the proper usage:

1. ‘I am YHWH who brought you out of Egypt, from among your enemies.’
2. ‘Tell them that PETER has sent you…’
3. ‘JOSHUA led the people of Israel into the promised land’

This is the reason that it is wrong to say that Jesus was calling himself ‘God’ when he said to the Jews, ‘Before Abraham, I was’ (if that was even the true words hd was supposed to have spoken!). The term, ‘I was’ IS NOT A NAME in Aramaic nor even in Greek, which were the languages most spoken in Jesus days. The Bible translators would have put ‘LORD’ if it were true.

But you know all this. I’m writing it just to add to your reply to Colt, who is being malicious for his own pleasure - not for anything that …might… have been true in any way!!

 

[amazing grace]

Father gave creative powers and authority to his Son. After the required incarnation Christ Michael has unquestioned power and authority. He is also God.

“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

You believe differently which is fine! Happy Easter!

Yep, we believe differently. Happy Easter to you as well!

 

[Colt]

The term, ‘I am’ is taken out of context in the translation.

‘I am’ is the DESCRIPTION or MEANING of the NAME, ‘YHWH’. The meaning should never be used where the NAME is meant to be shown.

For instance: Who would write or say:

1. ‘I am I am who brought you out of Egypt, from among your enemies.’
2. ‘Tell them that the stone has sent you…’
3. ‘God is deliverance led the people of Israel into the promised land’

What’s the proper usage:

1. ‘I am YHWH who brought you out of Egypt, from among your enemies.’
2. ‘Tell them that PETER has sent you…’
3. ‘JOSHUA led the people of Israel into the promised land’

This is the reason that it is wrong to say that Jesus was calling himself ‘God’ when he said to the Jews, ‘Before Abraham, I was’ (if that was even the true words hd was supposed to have spoken!). The term, ‘I was’ IS NOT A NAME in Aramaic nor even in Greek, which were the languages most spoken in Jesus days. The Bible translators would have put ‘LORD’ if it were true.

But you know all this. I’m writing it just to add to your reply to Colt, who is being malicious for his own pleasure - not for anything that …might… have been true in any way!!

Yahweh was one of the many nature Gods associated with the Sini volcano. The Israelites had 6 other names for God as well. Jesus simply called God Father.

 

[Soapy]

Still cannot

Yahweh was one of the many nature Gods associated with the Sini volcano. The Israelites had 6 other names for God as well. Jesus simply called God Father.

The God of the Israelites gave his name as ’YHWH’ which is a contraction of ‘YHWH ASHER YHWH’: ‘I am that I am’.

There was no other ‘God’ who had this epithet.

 

[Brian2]

What exactly do you mean by ‘Equal in nature’?

They both have an uncreated nature for a start.
They both have God nature, just as a human father and son have human nature.

Also, are you saying that Jesus is GOD AND is EQUAL TO GOD because they, you say, have the same nature?? Are you saying that two things with the same nature ARE THE ONE SAME THING - a God with TWO PERSONS in him, one of whom is a mutable immutable?

I try not to purposely use confusing language.
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
Jesus has always been the Son of God, with the same nature as His Father.
He has always been exactly like His Father even when He became a man. iow, as a man Jesus could say and did say "If you have seen me you have seen the Father". Not that Jesus looked like an invisible spirit but Jesus is exactly the same as His Father in His inner nature.

 

[Brian2]

The Bible scriptures does not say that Jesus was with God and created all things so I am denying that fallacy.

Hebrews 1:1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.
Soooooo, the Logos of John 1:1 who was with God in the beginning, was the Son of God.
Then we go to John 1:3 and see that all things were created through this Son of God.

Jesus Christ is not a DEITY!!!

Jesus Christ said:

• “As it is, you [Jews] are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God.” (John 8:40)

Jesus Christ is a Man (Son of Man) whom will be:

• ‘Coming with the clouds and all eyes will see him!’ (John 8:40)

Said of Jesus Christ:

• ‘Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.’ (Acts 2:22)

Yes Jesus became a man but remained the Son of God, exactly like His Father. He has 2 natures, His God nature which He has from His Father and His human nature which He has from His mother.

 

[Brian2]

“Pre-existence” as a term and a concept doesn’t make any sense. It’s like saying, “beyond infinity”. Debating it as a fact of reality is just an irrational waste of time. The best we can do is imagine what such a mystery might entail and then try to vet it logically. That will give us at least a viable possibility. But it will not give us an answer.

It's saying that Jesus lived as a spirit before taking on a human form and becoming a man (spirit and physical body combined).

 

[Soapy]

They both have an uncreated nature for a start.
They both have God nature, just as a human father and son have human nature.

Brian2… WHAT IS the nature of God????

I try not to purposely use confusing language.
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

Jesus Christ HAS NOT been ‘the same yesterday and today and forever’ as a complete statement.

Jesus Christ, in Heaven, said of himself, ‘I was dead, BUT NOW I am alive eternally’.

Jesus Christ was only Jesus, before he was ANOINTED to BECOME ‘Christ’.

Jesus was a baby, before he became an adult.

Jesus (And even as Jesus Christ) is a mortal human being. He was MADE immortal after GOD: the Father, raised him up from the dead.

Jesus was not ‘Ruler over creation’ until GOD, the Father, made him so.

Jesus was the FORETOLD Messiah… meaning he did not yet EXIST except in PROPHESY which the Father (YHWH, Almighty God) ordained.

How do you say by your ideology, that Jesus IS THE SAME yesterday as today as forevermore,

Jesus has always been the Son of God, with the same nature as His Father.
He has always been exactly like His Father even when He became a man. iow, as a man Jesus could say and did say "If you have seen me you have seen the Father". Not that Jesus looked like an invisible spirit but Jesus is exactly the same as His Father in His inner nature.

Brian2, his can he be EXACTLY LIKE HIS FATHER if he is a mortal man… Are you saying that God, the Father is a mortal man ‘like his son’?

Brian2, every time you make an exception, you degrade your claim that the Father is exactly the same as the Son.. or the Son is exactly like the Father…

Did the Father GRANT Jesus to have life in himself…

Did the Son grant the Father to sit on his (the Son) throne.

Brian2, is the Father equal to the Son?

‘To say Jesus is God is to bring the earth into Heaven. To say that God is man is to bring Heaven down to earth’

 

[Soapy]

Hebrews 1:1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.
Soooooo, the Logos of John 1:1 who was with God in the beginning, was the Son of God.
Then we go to John 1:3 and see that all things were created through this Son of God.



Yes Jesus became a man but remained the Son of God, exactly like His Father. He has 2 natures, His God nature which He has from His Father and His human nature which He has from His mother.

Ah, you are Pagan… So now understand why you fail to understand the scriptures… You believe like the Greeks….

I do feel sorry for you if you continue this way. I keep trying to warn you - I DO warn you, but you persist with wrongful belief… why? Why, when you must know you are in deceit each time you post falsely?

 

[Soapy]

It's saying that Jesus lived as a spirit before taking on a human form and becoming a man (spirit and physical body combined).

So anyone who is Spirit and Body, aka, a Person (Greek/Latin), a Soul (Hebrew), is GOD, then??

Or did you mean, is a SON of God?

But holy angels are Spirit alone, and they are Sons of God, too!!!

 

[Soapy]

Hebrews 1:1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.
Soooooo, the Logos of John 1:1 who was with God in the beginning, was the Son of God.
Then we go to John 1:3 and see that all things were created through this Son of God.



Yes Jesus became a man but remained the Son of God, exactly like His Father. He has 2 natures, His God nature which He has from His Father and His human nature which He has from His mother.

You can’t really answer the questions, can you?

God CANNOT BECOME… God is PERFECTION… Perfection cannot become anything else.

If God can become mortal then all is madness. This is why Scriptures says that we must not grieve the Spirit of Truth. If truth is grieved then all is madness, all is lost!!

 

[Brian2]

Well, I see that you also did not answer the question that I put forth - To exist is to have objective reality or being, be living, have life - so how does something or someone exist before they actually exist - one can be before they are?
Instead of answering the question I put forth you presented verses in which you understand to mean that Jesus preexisted and was there and had a hand in creation - when God created the world, i.e. the heaven and the earth.

Of course something or someone does not exist before they actually exist.

I also use plain scripture to show that Jesus had an origin/beginning and that origin/beginning was his birth. A literal preexistence is to "read with a preconceived notion of a triune God into the text" - which is eisegesis. Then there is exegesis which is "reading the text through the lens of the context to determine the original intent" - exegesis.

Of course the human Jesus came into existence in His mother's womb and was born and grew just like any other human.
However there are those who say that the prehuman Jesus was created, so you do not need a preconceived notion of a triune God to see the pre existence of Jesus.

My understanding is that in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth (Gen. 1) and Yahweh ALONE created (Isaiah 37:16, 44:24). My understanding is that God is not a man (Numbers 23:19; Job 9:32; Hosea 11:9) and God is GREATER than man (Job 33:12). My understanding is that Jesus would be a prophet like unto Moses, a prophet raised up by God out from among Moses' brethren, an Israelite and a Jew and God would put His words in his mouth and that prophet would speak God's word in His name - IOW God's plan for the Messiah, His Christ, His servant, His salvation, THE promised Prophet would have God's authority and authorization behind his words.

That all sounds right to me. I'm not sure what you meant by "IOW God's plan for the Messiah" however.