Proof of the supernatural

[bobhikes]

I had a Leprechaun tell me the lottery numbers in a dream. I remember them exactly when I awoke which was unusual. I played the numbers for a week to no avail. The day I stopped playing it the numbers came in. To this day I know there are leprechauns and when I catch one there will be pay back.

 

[IHaveTheGift]

I never bet on a horse race in my life but one day in Vegas I was walking through a casino sportsbook and on the board was a horse with the name, "BetMe(my name)." I decided to put money on the horse to win. It came first and paid 20-1. I call that a happy coincidence. Statistically these things have to happen. It would be greater evidence of supernatural influences in our lives if they never happened.

Different situation completely.
Did you wake up with that horses name drilled into your head and it drew you into going to the casino in the first place?
How many times do you visit casinos and play various games?
Just wondering.

Also, if this sort of stuff (like my OP suggests) never happen, how on earth does that give greater evidence of the supernatural, if they never happen to begin with?

That would be like saying if we have no fossil record, it gives greater evidence of evolution. :sarcastic
Or, if no twins/triplets are ever born, it gives greater probabilities to the possibility of them being born.

We cant just write off this stuff because coincidences do happen.
That is a logical fallacy.

1)coincidences happen
2)unexplainable events happen
3)all unexplainable events can be deemed coincidences.

I don't think premises worth that way.
(1) does not justify the conclusion of (3) from the premise of (2)

Might as well say
1)it is monday
2)It is raining
3)monday causes it to rain

 

[fantome profane]

Disclaimer:
OK, I know talk is cheap, please try to trust me, .

No. Sorry if this comes off as rude, but I have to tell the truth. And the truth is I don't trust you. Why should I trust you? I don't even know you.

People lie. People lie all the time, and people lie for no reason. I know people who will lie just so they have something to say. People will lie just so they can see what someone else will say.

So I am sorry, I don't trust you, and I don't believe this happened. :sorry1:

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Disclaimer:
OK, I know talk is cheap, please try to trust me, I have nothing what so ever to gain by making this up, nothing what so ever.
At best, you can claim attention, but you can be assured, I have some very very expensive video editing software at my disposal, and nothing but time on my hands.
So if attention is what I seek by trying to deceive others, if even just for fun, I would do just that. :yes:
Personally though, I get zero thrills from deceiving others, I despise liars and my conscious does not allow me to be a cheater or such.
I wish to be remembered for helping, not remembered for being a total loser.

Very well. I shall assess your story without assumption that you are being dishonest. However, the possibility of you being fallible still remains.

Back when I was 19, I was playing Basketball with some friends and a friend came to me and said her gramma wanted to talk to me.
This old woman never liked me, she hated all us kids, she was terrifying.
But since she was disabled, its not as if she could "get me" if you will.
So I went to her house to see what she wanted.

She told me she woke up with the number 147 drilled into her head, she even claimed she could see it floating in the air, if you will and because I was very well known as being good in math, she chose me to ask about it.

I'm going to have to stop you there. This is the first part of the story I'm having difficulty believing. Your friend's grandma asked to speak to you because she was seeing numbers and chose to tell you because she knew you were good at maths? I can't speak for her, but I'm pretty sure that if I thought a number was drilled into my head I'd probably seek a doctor before a young person who I happen to know (somehow) is good at maths. That makes no sense.

But, whatever, let's just assume your friend's grandma was pretty eccentric and continue...

Obviously, I had no damn clue what 147 meant, none at all.
She went on to explain that she had prayed to God all night to help her, as their washer had broken and she felt it was God talking to her.
About that time, the TV commercial about the lottery came on, she looked at me and said that's it, God gave me the winning number.

She asked me about the lottery, how much it cost, how much it paid, etc.
So I explained it to her.
$1 bet pays off $500 if it comes out exact and I said that most people put a back up on it with an extra $1, so if it comes out in a different order, you still win $83.
She had 3 dollars to her name, elected to play it $1 straight and $1 boxed and begged me to use the last dollar to play it myself.
I declined, I didn't want to take her last dollar.

She had $3 to her name, but owned and operated a washer?

Again, whatever, I'll just assume you meant that she had $3 on her at the time.

So I wrote the number on my hand with a pen so I wouldn't forget it, and went to play it for her and gave her the ticket.
Pretty much forgot about it and went back to B-ball.
Later that day, here comes her granddaughter running up to me.
"she won" "she won" "she won"......
I was like, yah ok, I thought she was teasing me.
Went back to her house, sure nuff, there she was holding a handful of money.
She hit it straight and boxed $583.
She gave me $25 too
Got her washer and gave some to her church and what ever else she did with the rest.

There is no way on earth that is just a coincidence as many have told me.
If she played the lotto regularly, yah, perhaps so.
She had no clue about the lotto, and plus the commercial came on as we were trying to figure out what the number meant, we were sort of trying to check Bible verses related to that number.
As far as I know, she never played it again either.
It was a one time thing.

This happened nearly 30 years ago and I will never forget it and one of the many many reasons why I am convinced that God exists.

For starters, are you certain that you are remembering it correctly? Thirty years is a long time. Do you have any evidence of the event that is contemporary? Did you or your friend's grandma at the time tell any of the newspapers? It seems like the kind of story you'd tell people about, and could potentially get the attention of local, if not national, papers.

It was not just the money she needed that was the deal here, tons and tons of lives were made better that day.
She was never a big meanie to us kids again, let others in need use her washer, and of course, the testimony she gave in church, had to strengthen many many peoples faith in God, and the domino effect it created could probably fill a book...

Plus, come to think of it, here it is 30 years later, and I am sharing it online, with the potential of millions of people to read.

So she did tell lots of people. Are there any records of this?

If you fail to believe me and think I am just making this up, which I am not, at least try to "what if" this is actually true....

Why should I? "What if" it's false and you're just remembering it wrong or unintentionally embellishing an otherwise unremarkable coincidence?

Could it really be deemed a coincidence?

Yes.

Again, I am not lying, it happened and there is nothing what so ever I would gain by making this up, why on earth would I waste all this time creating this post full of lies?

To convince us that your beliefs are true?

But, again, I'm assuming you're not lying. I am not assuming, however, that you are right. So, my possible explanations are these:

1 - You're remembering it wrong, and it was actually far less significant than it was.
2 - You're falsely attributing something you heard, or a collection of things you've heard, to events in your own life that have become more elaborate over the years.
3 - Your brain desperately needed something to give you a reason to believe, and invented these events entirely, and you convinced yourself of your own story.
4 - The sequence of events is just a peculiar coincidence.

All seems more plausible than the explanation "A magical superbeing decided to break an old woman's washing machine and then make a number stick in her head so that she could use that number to win $500 on the lottery and fix her washer, help her church and inspire faith in a friend of her grandson".

 

[IHaveTheGift]

I've read and heard of so many paranormal sounding things in my life and it's kind of become a hobby of mine to study the so-called paranormal. In doing so, I have also become aware of probably every skeptical argument there is also. With due consideration to both sides of the argument, I believe paranormal things do happen beyond all reasonable doubt.

I agree, and it would seem that most of the skeptical arguments given for them are more far fetched than deeming them paranormal.

 

[IHaveTheGift]

No. Sorry if this comes off as rude, but I have to tell the truth. And the truth is I don't trust you. Why should I trust you? I don't even know you.

People lie. People lie all the time, and people lie for no reason. I know people who will lie just so they have something to say. People will lie just so they can see what someone else will say.

So I am sorry, I don't trust you, and I don't believe this happened. :sorry1:

Why would it be rude to be honest?
I don't expect total strangers to believe me, nor do I really care.
I cant control what the whole world thinks and does. :yes:
Nor want to.
(well there is the wishing hate/racism etc would die)

However, usually when people tell lies, they have motives behind them.
Sure there are mental illnesses where people "have to" lie and even then, there is the motives, (not going to get into that though)

Anyway, thanks for being honest, no harm done on my end.

 

[bobhikes]

(well there is the wishing hate/racism etc would die)

Me too!:clap

 

[Amechania]

Different situation completely.
Did you wake up with that horses name drilled into your head and it drew you into going to the casino in the first place?
How many times do you visit casinos and play various games?
Just wondering.

Also, if this sort of stuff (like my OP suggests) never happen, how on earth does that give greater evidence of the supernatural, if they never happen to begin with?

That would be like saying if we have no fossil record, it gives greater evidence of evolution. :sarcastic
Or, if no twins/triplets are ever born, it gives greater probabilities to the possibility of them being born.

We cant just write off this stuff because coincidences do happen.
That is a logical fallacy.

1)coincidences happen
2)unexplainable events happen
3)all unexplainable events can be deemed coincidences.

I don't think premises worth that way.
(1) does not justify the conclusion of (3) from the premise of (2)

Might as well say
1)it is monday
2)It is raining
3)monday causes it to rain

I will attempt to answer this with all the sincerity and alacrity you treated my post:

 

[IHaveTheGift]

1 - You're remembering it wrong, and it was actually far less significant than it was.

What could be different that I am confused about remembering?
She didn't win?
The story stuck with me because she did win.

2 - You're falsely attributing something you heard, or a collection of things you've heard, to events in your own life that have become more elaborate over the years.

That seems like the same theory as your first theory

3 - Your brain desperately needed something to give you a reason to believe, and invented these events entirely, and you convinced yourself of your own story.

odd that could happen to someone though.
I think I would come up with something much more greater of a story though.
Such as limbs growing back, her winning 100 million and saving millions of lives, etc and not just a trivial washing machine.
No offense, but it would seem that your theories are actual desperate attempts to reason this away, in the opposite fashion of the reasons you claim for me.
So, that theory of yours goes both ways here, right?

4 - The sequence of events is just a peculiar coincidence.

Very very true and as I said, I am being totally honest about this story and it did happen, so coincidence is really the only other explanation, in my eyes.
Sure, we can say, he is lying, he is mistaken, someone hypnotized him, Alien Abduction....
But seriously, shouldn't we have some sort of justification to making the claims?
Weigh in the theories and figure out what is most plausible out of all of it?

All seems more plausible than the explanation "A magical superbeing decided to break an old woman's washing machine and then make a number stick in her head so that she could use that number to win $500 on the lottery and fix her washer, help her church and inspire faith in a friend of her grandson".

Where did you get the idea of "God" breaking the washing machine from?
God doesn't do harmful stuff to us to then "come save the day"
Just so you know that is not his plans and actions.

Infact, I am open to other theories of the supernatural because, as I said, to me,
coincidence doesn't wash.

In closing, if you wish, I will create a mock thread in the jokes section and show everyone my ability to come up with fake supernatural stories and I can surely come up with something much more entertaining than this one over a washing machine.

I am sorry if you wished me to reply to the rest of your post.
Quoting thread posts is very difficult here after the initial quote because of the previous persons replies dropping off the quote.

BTW, whats the best way to quote posts?
Can someone PM me and explain?
Do we have to actually add both sets of quote tags in to every single part?

 

[fantome profane]

However, usually when people tell lies, they have motives behind them.
Sure there are mental illnesses where people "have to" lie and even then, there is the motives, (not going to get into that though)

As I said I don't think people need much motive to lie, sometimes people lie just because they are bored.

But if I was looking for a motive for you to tell this story, I think this might give us a hint at what your possible motive could be.

This happened nearly 30 years ago and I will never forget it and one of the many many reasons why I am convinced that God exists.
It was not just the money she needed that was the deal here, tons and tons of lives were made better that day.
She was never a big meanie to us kids again, let others in need use her washer, and of course, the testimony she gave in church, had to strengthen many many peoples faith in God, and the domino effect it created could probably fill a book...

Plus, come to think of it, here it is 30 years later, and I am sharing it online, with the potential of millions of people to read.

I would suppose that you are someone who really does believe in "God", and you are someone who wants to convince others of the existence of "God". Again, I don't know you, but are these two statements accurate? If they are this could provide a motive for either lying, or exaggerating. I think you are telling us this story because you believe it might bring people to "God". I think you are "testifying" for "God".



Now for myself I confess that I have a "naturalistic bias". When there are two or more possible explanations for a phenomena I will almost always choose a naturalistic explanation over a supernatural explanation. Especially when the naturalistic explanation is commonplace.

You said that nothing natural could be the explanation. And you also said that the natural explanations are more far fetched than the paranormal.

However I have provide a very simple commonplace and completely natural explanation. My explanation is that this story is fiction. Is that really so far fetched? Is that more unlikely than a the idea that "God" sent a vision to a woman so she could win the lottery? Just on the numbers, which event happens more often in your opinion? How many times on a typical day in do people lie? And how many times in a typical day does "God" send visions to people so they can win money?

So I am glad you don't think I am being rude, but let me ask you one last question.

Am I being unreasonable?

 

[IHaveTheGift]

I will attempt to answer this with all the sincerity and alacrity you treated my post:

Considering all the unjustified mockery/jokes you any others have been doing here about dead uncles, you really have no right to point fingers at me when you have not shown much respect here at all.

As for my reply to your first post.
I meant no offense to you, no clue why you can not handle a little genuine criticisms from me.
I gave legitimate replies to your post.

But if it seemed like I was not being sincere, I am sorry, I was not trying to mock or what ever. :yes:
What exactly was wrong with me asking you how much you frequent casinos and give examples of how your theories make no sense to me?

 

[ametist]

I think paranormal things happen. That just is so. But I think people shouldnt get too much involved in trying to explain them even if it happens to them. Just keep it as a nice memory. some paranormal happenings cant be explained in our ages and if you insist on explaining it just isnt good for your personal wellbeing.

 

[IHaveTheGift]

As I said I don't think people need much motive to lie, sometimes people lie just because they are bored.

True that, and I am bored, but not bored enough to lie
I would no more cheat in solitary then lie for attention.
Its stupid and means nothing in the end

But if I was looking for a motive for you to tell this story, I think this might give us a hint at what your possible motive could be.I would suppose that you are someone who really does believe in "God", and you are someone who wants to convince others of the existence of "God". Again, I don't know you, but are these two statements accurate? If they are this could provide a motive for either lying, or exaggerating. I think you are telling us this story because you believe it might bring people to "God". I think you are "testifying" for "God".

Nope, Bible thumping is not my style
Plus, lying to bring people to God is not plausible.
Sort of like cheating ones way through collage might get them a degree, but they wont learn anything.

Now for myself I confess that I have a "naturalistic bias". When there are two or more possible explanations for a phenomena I will almost always choose a naturalistic explanation over a supernatural explanation. Especially when the naturalistic explanation is commonplace.

Most naturalists do.
The natural explanation isn't really the more probable theory, specially if bias is the choice of reason and not actually considering all options.
Its as you said, juts being bias, right?

You said that nothing natural could be the explanation. And you also said that the natural explanations are more far fetched than the paranormal.

No, SOME of the natural explanations are more far fetched because they don't explain anything, they do not have evidence to support them.
Such as claiming I am lying or delusional, its a theory, yes, but an empty theory unless one can prove I am lying etc.

Theories are ok, but no more valid as being true than any other.
"Could be..." is empty without evidence to support it.
right?

So I am glad you don't think I am being rude, but let me ask you one last question.

Am I being unreasonable?

Not so much unreasonable.
Bias is the more correct term.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

What could be different that I am confused about remembering?
She didn't win?
The story stuck with me because she did win.

You could be misremembering any number of possible factors. The number, the amount she won, the lottery advert, the washer.

That seems like the same theory as your first theory

More of a variation on a theme, really. The first assumes that something similar to what you described occurred, but that your memory of it is somewhat flawed, and you're filling in the gaps. The second theory is that the events occurred but were unrelated, but your mind kind of weaved them together into a narrative.

odd that could happen to someone though.

But it does happen. People can and do convince themselves of completely made up things all of the time. There are people out there who are absolutely convinced that they are actually cats in human bodies, or that they've seen Elvis alive, or that How I Met Your Mother is a good show.

I think I would come up with something much more greater of a story though.
Such as limbs growing back, her winning 100 million and saving millions of lives, etc and not just a trivial washing machine.

But that would be far easier to demonstrate, as it would gain huge media attention. The story of the washing machine is much smaller in scale, which would explain why not many people know about it - although you still claim that she spoke to her congregation about it, and I would be interested to know if there are any other accounts of these events.

No offense, but it would seem that your theories are actual desperate attempts to reason this away, in the opposite fashion of the reasons you claim for me.
So, that theory of yours goes both ways here, right?

Of course. I could be wrong to dismiss your story, but until you have provided some decent proof, I am fairly confident that your story is false and that I am justified in thinking so.

Very very true and as I said, I am being totally honest about this story and it did happen, so coincidence is really the only other explanation, in my eyes.

And perhaps that is part of the problem. Do you not admit the possibility that you might just be remembering it wrong or unknowingly fabricating aspects of the story? Are you infallible?

Sure, we can say, he is lying, he is mistaken, someone hypnotized him, Alien Abduction....
But seriously, shouldn't we have some sort of justification to making the claims?

We do have justification for making the claims. You've told us a very unlikely story and given us no reason whatsoever to believe that it is true beyond your word.

Weigh in the theories and figure out what is most plausible out of all of it?

To be honest, the most plausible is that you are either lying or simply mistaken. Until demonstrated otherwise, that is.

Where did you get the idea of "God" breaking the washing machine from?

I misread your story and thought you said that she thought the washing machine breaking was "a sign from God" when you meant the number. My mistake.

God doesn't do harmful stuff to us to then "come save the day"
Just so you know that is not his plans and actions.

No. Apparently his plan of action is to allow harmful thing to happen to us, then either help us out or not depending on an arbitrary whim.

But, that's another discussion for another time...

Infact, I am open to other theories of the supernatural because, as I said, to me,
coincidence doesn't wash.

Why not? Coincidences do happen.

In closing, if you wish, I will create a mock thread in the jokes section and show everyone my ability to come up with fake supernatural stories and I can surely come up with something much more entertaining than this one over a washing machine.

I'm not sure entertainment is a factor, but believability is.

I am sorry if you wished me to reply to the rest of your post.
Quoting thread posts is very difficult here after the initial quote because of the previous persons replies dropping off the quote.

That's absolutely fine - you have lots of people responding to this thread, so I can hardly expect you to even respond to my post at all, let alone respond to every point I made.

I'm most interested, however, in whether or not you can find any corroboration of your claim. You said she told her Church. Is there any record of this? Anyone else you can ask to support your claim from their point of view?

 

[IHaveTheGift]

I think paranormal things happen. That just is so. But I think people shouldnt get too much involved in trying to explain them even if it happens to them. Just keep it as a nice memory. some paranormal happenings cant be explained in our ages and if you insist on explaining it just isnt good for your personal wellbeing.

Why would you say that?
As human beings we have need to know why everything happens.
It is part of us.

Should science just give up on trying to figure out the big bang then too?
Nothing in a natural explanation can explain matter to just pop into existence.
Specially all that matter out there.

 

[fantome profane]

True that, and I am bored, but not bored enough to lie
I would no more cheat in solitary then lie for attention.
Its stupid and means nothing in the end

Nope, Bible thumping is not my style
Plus, lying to bring people to God is not plausible.
Sort of like cheating ones way through collage might get them a degree, but they wont learn anything.


Most naturalists do.
The natural explanation isn't really the more probable theory, specially if bias is the choice of reason and not actually considering all options.
Its as you said, juts being bias, right?


No, SOME of the natural explanations are more far fetched because they don't explain anything, they do not have evidence to support them.
Such as claiming I am lying or delusional, its a theory, yes, but an empty theory unless one can prove I am lying etc.

Theories are ok, but no more valid as being true than any other.
"Could be..." is empty without evidence to support it.
right?



Not so much unreasonable.
Bias is the more correct term.

Ok, I am just going to say one more thing in explanation to my naturalistic bias. Yes I admit to this bias, I admit this freely and unashamedly. I think that most people operate with a naturalistic bias at least 99% of the time.

And in fact even you, in the OP, demonstrate that you have a naturalistic bias

I say supernatural, because nothing natural could possibly be the explanation.

You say that the reason you opt for a supernatural explanation is the lack of a natural explanation. This means that if there was a natural explanation even you would opt for that natural explanation over a supernatural explanation. Think about that. This shows that not only do you have a naturalistic bias, but you expect that any reasonable person hearing this story would also have a naturalistic bias. Think about that.

 

[IHaveTheGift]

You could be misremembering any number of possible factors. The number, the amount she won, the lottery advert, the washer.

The actual number that came out is irrelevant to remember, wouldn't matter if it was 147 or 148, she still got it right.
The amount won can easily be checked, a dollar bet pays off $500.
I remember playing it boxed and straight, remember her begging me to take her last dollar and kicking myself in the butt for not doing that.
I used the $25 she gave me to buy smokes and dont remember what I did with the rest though.
Kind of hard to get the washer part wrong, never less if it was a drier or a part for her car, what she needed it the money for is also irrelevant.
Its a real easy story to remember, in my opinion anyway.
Its not that complicated.

But it does happen. People can and do convince themselves of completely made up things all of the time. There are people out there who are absolutely convinced that they are actually cats in human bodies, or that they've seen Elvis alive, or that How I Met Your Mother is a good show.

I fail to see the connection in those examples, sorry.

Plus, I am a very (dont know the word)
Like how people role play with sex and stuff like that?
Not me, I am too real to enjoy that stuff, would feel stupid trying it.

Of course. I could be wrong to dismiss your story, but until you have provided some decent proof, I am fairly confident that your story is false and that I am justified in thinking so.

You can dismiss it, but it is not justified.
If I said I had pizza for dinner and you said, no you did not, how can that be justified?
You can say that you cant be sure what I ate, but you cant claim what you can not prove true, right?

And perhaps that is part of the problem. Do you not admit the possibility that you might just be remembering it wrong or unknowingly fabricating aspects of the story? Are you infallible?

No one is perfect, but to claim that is justification to reason I am mistaken, is a fallacy.
Just because an pencil has an eraser on it, does not mean the person using it has to make mistakes.

We do have justification for making the claims. You've told us a very unlikely story and given us no reason whatsoever to believe that it is true beyond your word.
To be honest, the most plausible is that you are either lying or simply mistaken. Until demonstrated otherwise, that is.

Wrong, what you are claiming is a form of bias.
Don't confuse this, I am not claiming my story is a brute fact example of God.
People here are guilty of making brute fact claims of the negative though with nothing more than "because I said so" as their justifications.

I misread your story and thought you said that she thought the washing machine breaking was "a sign from God" when you meant the number. My mistake.

Some people actually believe God does that though, I am not one of them.
Humans do that not God, set up disasters so they can come save the day.
Hell, even firemen have been found guilty of it, start fires, so they can be the hero.
Pretty disturbing.

No. Apparently his plan of action is to allow harmful thing to happen to us, then either help us out or not depending on an arbitrary whim.

But, that's another discussion for another time...

see my previous reply, but if you wish, create a thread and I will engage it.
Its an interesting topic too.

Why not? Coincidences do happen.

I am not ruling that out, I just do not see how it can be though.
Too many coincidences are needed for it to be as such, to me anyway.

I'm most interested, however, in whether or not you can find any corroboration of your claim. You said she told her Church. Is there any record of this? Anyone else you can ask to support your claim from their point of view?

Honestly, she is dead now, I very seldom see her granddaughter, but even if I could get her here to give her account, if you don't believe me, why would you believe her?

Off topic sort of but, in my experiences with religious people, they tell their story and do not care if others believe it or not, they tell it and go about their day.

Same with me, I am not trying to convince anyone who wants me to try to.
I am just telling my story, replying out of respect and to further give details where needed.
I doubt you or other skeptics will change their stances.
Am not trying to force them to either.
Just answering what is asked.

That is what the forums is for, to engage others.
Conversions is not my motives.
Even though God wants us to do like the JW's do, I am not that sort of guy.

Everyone knows there is Bibles and such, they can pick up the book themselves and decide for themselves.
Same with this thread, everyone can read it and make their own conclusions to it.

 

[methylatedghosts]

By the way, I'm getting a message from the other side. It's a message from somebody with an "S" name? Or, "F?" Is there somebody here who knows somebody whose dead whose name begins with S or F? Or, possibly, M. It's an older man, like a father or grandfather. Maybe an uncle. If this is you, let me know, so I can pass along the message.

Reminds me of a comedian I saw the other night on the stage...

Ok, I'm getting a name, there's a message for a Sue Walker. Sue...Walker. Anybody here... Sue... Walker. It could be someone who knew a Sue Walker.
Sue Walker...
It could be a Sue who likes walking
Or who can walk
Maybe a Sue who couldn't walk, but now can
Or a Sue who has a walker
It might be some who is suing a walker
Or suing a group of Walkers
Our has sued, or is thinking about suing...

 

[IHaveTheGift]

Ok, I am just going to say one more thing in explanation to my naturalistic bias. Yes I admit to this bias, I admit this freely and unashamedly. I think that most people operate with a naturalistic bias at least 99% of the time.

And in fact even you, in the OP, demonstrate that you have a naturalistic biasYou say that the reason you opt for a supernatural explanation is the lack of a natural explanation. This means that if there was a natural explanation even you would opt for that natural explanation over a supernatural explanation. Think about that. This shows that not only do you have a naturalistic bias, but you expect that any reasonable person hearing this story would also have a naturalistic bias. Think about that.

Exactly, and it is why I strongly feel this is not a coincidence.

People who don't play the lotto nor gave a hoot about it wake up with the winning number drilled into their heads, specially after praying to God to help them in a time of real need.
Then the commercial comes on during discussion on what the number meant.

People seem to be confusing this with a spontaneous play of the lotto by someone who just felt like trying to win.

Now, if she played the lotto here and there, and upon walking into the store, felt the need to play the lotto, just because, then it would have much more of a coincidence label, but this is not even close to a spontaneous and random event.
To me anyway.

BTW, once, two days before payday, I used my last buck to buy a scratch off and won $50.
Complete coincidence and luck.
Like with the guy claiming he spontaneously picked a horse to win out of the blue, pure luck.
My logic does not allow me to compare those things to the OP.

Maybe I am wrong, and they are the same things?
Cant see how.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

The actual number that came out is irrelevant to remember, wouldn't matter if it was 147 or 148, she still got it right.

I mean you could be misremembering any aspect of the number.

The amount won can easily be checked, a dollar bet pays off $500.

Again, this was just an example of a factor which you could be misremembering.

I remember playing it boxed and straight, remember her begging me to take her last dollar and kicking myself in the butt for not doing that.
I used the $25 she gave me to buy smokes and dont remember what I did with the rest though.
Kind of hard to get the washer part wrong, never less if it was a drier or a part for her car, what she needed it the money for is also irrelevant.
Its a real easy story to remember, in my opinion anyway.
Its not that complicated.

But the story you're remembering may not actually be the events that actually took place. That's the point of misremembering things.

I fail to see the connection in those examples, sorry.

You make the connection. Again, that's the point of misremembering.

Plus, I am a very (dont know the word)
Like how people role play with sex and stuff like that?
Not me, I am too real to enjoy that stuff, would feel stupid trying it.

That's irrelevant. You're still a fallible human being, with a mind that is just as susceptible to unconscious influences as any other.

You can dismiss it, but it is not justified.

Yes it is. You've presented me with a very unlikely story and given me no reason to believe that it is true.

If I said I had pizza for dinner and you said, no you did not, how can that be justified?

I wouldn't. Claiming you had pizza for dinner is not unlikely or extraordinary in any way, shape or form. Claiming your friend's grandma had a vision of a number that won her money on the lottery, and ascribing that event to the exsitence of the supernatural, is definitely an extraordinary claim. I have no reason to believe your claim is true, and I definitely have no reason to believe that the supernatural is a reasonable explanation for it.

You can say that you cant be sure what I ate, but you cant claim what you can not prove true, right?

I wouldn't need proof, because different claims carry different burdens. I know pizza exists, and I know people eat it, and I know you'd have very little reason to lie or be otherwise mistaken about what you ate for dinner. On the other hand, you using a very unlikely story as support for your belief in the supernatural and then presenting that belief as proof carries a much higher burden. One claim I am happy to accept at face value, because it's not an extraordinary claim and nothing rests upon it. The other claim I am not happy to take at face value, because it is extraordinary and extremely unlikely, and if what you ascribe it to are accurate it would lead to world-changing revelations on a global scale. One claim is not remotely equal to the other.

No one is perfect, but to claim that is justification to reason I am mistaken, is a fallacy.

No, it isn't. Not when a claim is as unlikely or extraordinary as yours, and the explanation you are presenting is far less likely than the possibility of you simply being mistaken. People are wrong all the time.

Just because an pencil has an eraser on it, does not mean the person using it has to make mistakes.

But you admit that it's a possibility, and it is clearly a more likely one than the one you present. Just because you think it happened, doesn't mean it happened. And just because you think the only explanation is the existence of the supernatural, that doesn't make that true either. In the absence of more evidence, the only reasonable conclusion to formulate is clearly the most likely one: that you are simply mistaken.

Wrong, what you are claiming is a form of bias.
Don't confuse this, I am not claiming my story is a brute fact example of God.
People here are guilty of making brute fact claims of the negative though with nothing more than "because I said so" as their justifications.

But that's exactly what you're doing. You're saying that this story is a fact, and saying that the only explanation is the existence of the supernatural. If someone comes to you with a completely unbelievable story and tells you that the only possible explanation for it is fairies, your lack of belief in the credibility of their story is not a form of bias. It is called logic and reason.

see my previous reply, but if you wish, create a thread and I will engage it.
Its an interesting topic too.

I think there have probably been too many threads on the problem of evil on these forums as it is, and since I am currently unaware of your specific definition or conception of God I cannot say with certainty whether or not the problem of evil is even an actual problem for your God or not. I agree, perhaps we'll see another thread on the subject in the near future and be able to discuss it further.

I am not ruling that out, I just do not see how it can be though.
Too many coincidences are needed for it to be as such, to me anyway.

Which is why I am more willing to believe you are misremembering or formulating it somehow. If you concoct a story in your own mind, it makes sense that there would be a lot of coincidental information.

Honestly, she is dead now, I very seldom see her granddaughter, but even if I could get her here to give her account, if you don't believe me, why would you believe her?

I wouldn't need her account. She spoke to her church, so I assumed there could be local papers, parish records, other accounts from any of your friends or family who were around at the time, that sort of thing.

Off topic sort of but, in my experiences with religious people, they tell their story and do not care if others believe it or not, they tell it and go about their day.

That's not really my experience. Well, it is sometimes, but usually a religious story is presented to me as a means of convincing me of something.

Same with me, I am not trying to convince anyone who wants me to try to.

Then why did you call this thread "Proof of the supernatural"? I get that you're at least asking people what they think, and accepting their objections to a degree, but you can hardly be said to not be trying to convince us of something when you go to so much effort in your disclaimer alone to try and tell us that it's definitely, assuredly true.

I am just telling my story, replying out of respect and to further give details where needed.
I doubt you or other skeptics will change their stances.
Am not trying to force them to either.
Just answering what is asked.

Fair enough. But, again, if that's the case, present your story as a talking point rather than "Proof of the supernatural".