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Protestants: Church Fathers
- Thread starter Rival
- Start date
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
They were essential for passing on information of Jesus and the Apostles, plus they eventually selected the Christian canon used by most Christians.
siti
Well-Known Member
Me too...but when you look in from the outside, you start to realize that these were the people who determined what Christianity as a religion would look like. For example, Irenaeus, Origen, Eusebius and Augustine all seem to have had key roles in determining (or at least disseminating) which particular writings should be included in what is now referred to as the "New Testament", selections being made mainly on the basis of which writings more or less supported Church doctrine and those which were clearly "heretical".
Of course, as a Christian, you would believe that these men as individuals were essentially irrelevant as the process of assembling the Bible was guided by God through the power of the Holy Spirit and it wouldn't have mattered if, for example, Irenaeus had come to a different conclusion about the canonicity of four - and ONLY four - Gospels...God would have just used some other person to get that done.
From a protestant (Anglican which I once was - a rather long time ago) point of view, the 39 Articles that define the doctrines and practices of the Anglican churches around the world include affirmations of the same canon of scripture as well as the Apostles Creed, The Nicene Creed and the Athanasian Creed all of which came from the Church Fathers and early Councils of the Church. These are defining features of the religion of 100 million+ Anglican protestants.
Of course far more protestants seem to be of the (vague) opinion that the "path of the righteous" only began "shining ever brighter" (Proverbs 4:18) again once the protestant reformation got under way. For them, there is no need to read the Church Fathers because they were obviously either the authors or perpetuators of the very "apostasy" that had plunged the Church into centuries of spiritual darkness. That, of course, and the Church Fathers don't exactly make riveting reading...
...but the truth remains, the very sola scriptura Bible on which the vast multitudes of Protestants base their sola fide path to salvation, came to them from, or at least via, these Church Fathers. I reckon they deserve a bit more credit and air time among protestants. I doubt most of them would even be able to name one.
While I was doing "Roots of Western Civilization" at York University in Toronto, the early Christian Fathers -- especially Clement of Rome -- were guaranteed "go-to-sleep" reading for me. I even tried reading sitting on my balcony in winter -- sure enough....zzzzzz! I've read telephone books (for those who remember what they were) that were more interesting.
Nice, but I think it would be good to remember that for disciples of Jesus, Jesus is the teacher and God is the Father.
For they bind heavy burdens that are grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not lift a finger to help them. But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad, enlarge the fringes of their garments, and love the place of honor at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, the salutations in the marketplaces, and to be called 'Rabbi, Rabbi' by men. But don't you be called 'Rabbi,' for one is your teacher, the Christ, and all of you are brothers. Call no man on the earth your father, for one is your Father, he who is in heaven. Neither be called masters, for one is your master, the Christ. But he who is greatest among you will be your servant. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
Matt. 23:4-12
siti
Well-Known Member
...according to the compilation of reported sayings of Jesus handed down to the current generation of "disciples of Jesus" by the Church Fathers, which sayings were selected for inclusion, at least in part, because (in the case of the quote you selected) they represented a rejection of Jewish religious authority and the Judaizing influence of some Christians in the 1st and 2nd centuries. Read for example Acts 15, Galatians 2:14 and the Epistle of Barnabas - which, although it represents a similar anti-Judaizing position was not selected for inclusion in the Bible by the Church Fathers - probably because it goes much harder on Jewish custom than Paul did and would have been seen as far less accommodating for converting Jews.
The fact is, what you now have as the guide for "disciples of Jesus", is (whether you care to admit it or not) a product of the religious views of the Church Fathers and what Protestantism does to the Church Fathers is pretty much the same as what the Church Fathers did to the Rabbinic tradition of 1st century Judaism...cherry pick the bits that accord with their existing (or pre-programmed) religious views and cast the rest as apostatizing anathema.
Please explain why do you think the Matt. 23:4-12 is anti-judaizing?
siti
Well-Known Member
It is a direct criticism of Jewish religious authority as I stated...I actually used the term anti-Judaizing in regard to Acts 15 and especially Galatians 2:14 if you read my post carefully...it is very clear that Paul took an anti-Judaizing position...when the question of which Gospel accounts were fit for inclusion in the Pauline Christian church's Canon, one that has Jesus roundly criticizing Jewish religious authority and tradition would definitely have got the nod.
Sorry, I don't think that is true. I think they were against hypocrisy. Similarly as many modern Christians, the people at that time were outwardly "good", but inside was not. And I think it is right to criticize authorities, if they are doing wrong.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Really? You think Acts 15 is about hypocrisy? Maybe I have just misunderstood you.
May I ask how you deal with Deuteronomy 17:8-13, where God expressly gives authority to interpret the Law to the Levites and Judges, and assigns the death penalty to those who question their decisions?
Regiomontanus
Eastern Orthodox
Great question!
I think that is also partially about hypocrisy, when it speaks that some demand others to obey rules that they even themselves don't obey.
Now, then, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we had strength to bear?
Acts. 15:10
However, I think, if person is connected to the new covenant, that was established through Jesus, it is enough, no need to take part of other covenants. And then it would be good to live by the new covenants rules Jesus gave.
By that, one could claim that anyone who questions decisions of Jesus, would deserve death penalty.
Do you think Levites still exist? Who they are and how it is determined?
Regiomontanus
Eastern Orthodox
To the Orthodox, the teachings of the Fathers are the ever-flowing, eternal sources of wisdom and guidance. Try to listen to a lecture or homily in, say, the Greek Orthodox church without hearing John Chrysostom being quoted. Or Gregory the Theologian. The Orthodox are guided by tradition more than any other branch of Christianity, I think, and so the teachings of the Fathers really are foundational. Gregory of Nyssa is another one I find most illuminating.