Prove: Satan does (not) exist

[stvdv]

Your original post is based on a flawed premise - the assumption that satan is forced to respond to your challenge.
It's no different than those who think they can challenge God to prove Himself to them, as though they believe He is forced to accept their challenge and to do so on their terms.
You have no basis for believing you can force either of them to respond to you on your terms.

You also assume satan is able to do it if you invite him to. We know in the Bible satan is restrained from doing many things and won't be fully unrestrained until the end times tribulation period. So your assumption is based on a bad or incomplete understanding of the facts we know.

Your experiment is is not valid scientifically because it is based on flawed premises. Premises that are based on bad logic and wrong/incomplete information.

Thank you for your response

Maybe the "Bible Satan" is a flawed premise to begin with also
Maybe "your assumption" of the Bible, what you call "facts" are not really facts

 

[Nakosis]

Yes, I think we created our own problem of Satan
Yes, that is a very human habit to create something to blame evil on
Yes, that is exactly my thought also ... e.g. "Jesus died because of our sins" instead of "Jesus died for our sins" makes more sense to me
But I also totally understand, that after killing Jesus, it's not the favorite story to tell your kids, so their little twists I can understand
And once we are brainwashed for a few decades, it is indeed near to impossible to fix it on our own (also my experience ... evolution goes very slow)
Great you kicked Satan out that young fully aware. I did the "Jesus can't be the only one for all" when I was about 10 years old.
I did go to a Christian School. Must have been full with Satan, but maybe I was blocking Satan out. Satan never was part of my reality.

In Sunday school, Jesus was taught as the loving father I never had. The dying and torture part was never a focus. Guess they decided we were to young for that kind of stuff. Satan was just the guy who made you do bad things that Jesus had to forgive you for. Jesus was the hero and Satan was the villian. Satan was jealous of God's love for man.

 

[stvdv]

This thread is great, I'm sure from Satan's perspective, whose number one goal is having people live in ignorance of his existence and/or methods....

1. Deny His Existence

One of the favorite ways in which Satan operates is to get people to deny that he exists. He seems to be most effective when people do not believe there is such a creature as the Devil. If he can get people to doubt his existence, then he can do much of his work without their knowing.
How Does Satan Keep Unbelievers in Spiritual Darkness?

Thank you for your reply. That gave me this idea:

1. Deny His Existence as in one's own Devilish thoughts/words/actions

If someone ONLY sees Satan outside him/herself, he might deny Satan within himself, thereby blocking his/her Spiritual growth.

 

[stvdv]

In Sunday school, Jesus was taught as the loving father I never had. The dying and torture part was never a focus. Guess they decided we were to young for that kind of stuff. Satan was just the guy who made you do bad things that Jesus had to forgive you for. Jesus was the hero and Satan was the villian. Satan was jealous of God's love for man.

Good example how important it is what and how you tell things to kids. You could shake Satan off quite easily.
Some people give Satan a lot of power. Doing this makes it much more difficult to shake Satan off

 

[Aurelius]

I voted 'I believe Satan does not exist'.

Because that's the most truthful option I had from my perspective that I lack certain knowledge concerning God or Satan. That being said- Satan is just as likely as God to be an untrue concept.

For the same reason.

 

[ChristineM]

I have taken this "challenge" decades ago. Back when I was on Topix, I had a "Yer Gunna HELL" commentator who every day, would declare that various of us non-theists were "Gunna HELL!" in most emphatic terms.

I challenged him, in return: I placed a small paper clip next to my monitor (really, on it's base). I challenged him to pray that his god would move the clip off onto the floor. I correctly pointed out that his own Matthew promised that anything asked in the (apparently magic) name of Jesus, would be granted-- and was moving a 3 gram clip all that difficult for a Universe-creating god?

He, naturally, refused to pray the prayer-- for he understood on some level, his god was absolutely impotent-- what with being mythic and all that.

So I went a step further: I challenged his god to strike me dead this instant. That challenge, and subsequent ones, remain open.

I'm not dead.

Ergo, his god has no power.

In truth, I see the biblical Satan (or as he spelt it, "Satin" ... yeah.... I know) as synonymous with the biblical god. The two are either the same being, or else one must be subservient to the other, and therefore, it's Agent Provocateur.

So yeah...... As Mary, Queen of Scots was purported to have said? "I'm not dead yet."

P.S. That clip? Is still there... it's quite dusty at the present time-- having been there since about 2006...

Ahh, the good old days ,

 

[stvdv]

Ahh, the good old days ,

Hypothetical: Satan is the one having a Skull as her Avatar

Satan might have entered the scene now
That is how easy Satan is created

 

[ChristineM]

Hypothetical: Satan is the one having a Skull as her Avatar

Satan might have entered the scene now
That is how easy Satan is created

I have of hard proof of where my avatar came from and where it is now. Can you say the same for your mythical bad man?

 

[stvdv]

Hypothetical: Satan is the one having a Skull as her Avatar

Satan might have entered the scene now
That is how easy Satan is created

I have of hard proof of where my avatar came from and where it is now. Can you say the same for your mythical bad man?

I have not created Satan nor a "mythical bad man", have you?

 

[ChristineM]

I have not created Satan nor a "mythical bad man", have you?

It should have read "the mythical bad man".

 

[sealchan]

Disclaimer:
1: All the below is my personal opinion in my quest for truth. I Can be wrong. No disrespect.
2: IF someone would argue "this thread is crazy", then I would argue "not half as crazy as allowing religious people claiming `all go to hell unless they have accepted Jesus` etc.etc."

Since 1 year I see several religious persons try to impose on me/others that a real Devil/Satan exists using words like "we know that Satan is doing ...." etc. Very friendly if they like to warn us. But if untrue, this is just a burden to our mind and really useless. They should say "IMHO, I know that Satan is doing ...".

Now I do understand Atheists when Theists claim "we know that God is doing ...." etc. Exactly the same. And many make even a combi out of the two, adding Jesus or maybe Muhammad sometimes.

Is there a way to prove that God or Satan exists? If not, is it fair to claim they exist? Without using IMHO, this can be seen as a kind of brainwashing and emotional indoctrination, which IMO is not a good thing. I think it is our duty to scientifically disprove false claims, especially, because creating fear is a great stress in humans, causing many problems.

To proof that God exists is kind of difficult, as we don't have a proper definition of God even (that all agree on). But Satan is different ... Satan is the bad guy, who is after us. And we allegedly need Jesus to protect us. Some also claim that Satan is evil and will do anything to "get to you".

So far just words; I never saw Satan. It's time to stop this mental imagination imposing on us in year 2020

"Truth" or "Dare":
If Satan is out to "get us", then to prove this to be "Truth" I will "Dare" Satan to kill me tonight in between 22h and 06h. This is a one time offer. Not out of fear, but because of this above bold claim and me not being interested in wasting any more time with this Satan illusion (I have never considered Satan to be real, but being scientist, why not disprove this once and for all?). I am willing to sacrifice myself (to be killed) to Satan.

I did make a poll, to make it more scientific; if others like to join (not for the "faint of heart" of course).
And in the case Satan exists and kills all or some of the participants see Disclaimer below:
Disclaimer:
1) Whoever participates in the poll does so out of his/her own free will
2) RF (Religious Forums) nor anyone else can be held responsible or accountable

Beware: I do give Satan believers the benefit of the doubt. So I had to formulate the poll in a bit sinister way. Because in the case Satan is real (just to be complete), I will die, and won't be able to answer the poll.
* At 22h I select poll option 1/2: "I died, so Satan is true".
* At 06h I select poll option 3/4: "I died NOT, so Satan is false" + Deselect option 1/2:

Poll Question: I Dare Satan to kill me to prove He exists
Poll Options:
1: I died, so Satan is true
2: I died, so Satan might be true
3: I died NOT, so Satan is false
4: I died NOT, so Satan might be false
5: Too risky this experiment, I'll watch
6: I might participate maybe later
7: Satan won't take the challenge
8: I believe Satan exists
9: I believe Satan does not exist

Note 1: Satan should agree with 22h-06h time frame to make sure it's Satan and not coincidence.

Note 2: I will set the alarm to deselect "poll option 1" as soon as possible

Note 3: In case I do die, I am fine. I had a great life full of interesting challenges. All my own responsibility

...on Facebook or Twitter if he doesnt have an Official Facebook page.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

A. According to the Bible, Satan is controlling this world, and is misleading earth's inhabitants.
B. According to most people, they seem to be no answer as to why man cannot achieve peace, which they so badly want, and it is evident that man is becoming more and more animal and loveless.
C. People don't seem to know the source of evil.
D. If God is, then God would know.
E. It is claimed that God is the author of the Bible, which is truth.

Earth's inhabitants seem to be misled, and driven by a selfish, loveless spirit.
A provides the answer to B, and C.
A is expected to be true, if E is true... an indication that there is no "if" in D
A seems to be true, therefore, we have no reason to doubt the truthfulness of A, nor E, nor D.

My logic.

IF A is true? THEN your god is just FINE with Satan, regardless of what people may or may not do.

Who permitted A, in the first place? Obviously, you believe your god did.

Thus? Your Satan is the Agent of your God.

That is inescapable logic: Your god is responsible for everything Satan may or may not do.

For starters? Having Created Satan in the first place...

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Your original post is based on a flawed premise - the assumption that satan is forced to respond to your challenge.
It's no different than those who think they can challenge God to prove Himself to them, as though they believe He is forced to accept their challenge and to do so on their terms.
You have no basis for believing you can force either of them to respond to you on your terms.

You also assume satan is able to do it if you invite him to. We know in the Bible satan is restrained from doing many things and won't be fully unrestrained until the end times tribulation period. So your assumption is based on a bad or incomplete understanding of the facts we know.

Your experiment is is not valid scientifically because it is based on flawed premises. Premises that are based on bad logic and wrong/incomplete information.

What "facts" would that BE? From the bible?

If you go by the bible-- and don't try to weasel your way around what is actually written?

Then both Satan AND God are required to respond-- because in either case, A Challenge To Their Authority was issued.

And the bible makes 100% clear, that either character cannot refuse a Challenge To Their Authority.

In that regard, neither has Free Will-- they Must Act. Their nature compels them to Act.

yet... we see.. time and time again, they never actually do anything.

Thus? The bible is ... WRONG about the Nature of either character.

Hmmm... I appears we can simply dismiss the Bible in it's entirety, as we cannot trust anything is says.

WHAT NOW, OH WISE SPEAKER-FOR-GOD?

 

[oldbadger]

There is no Satan.
There is only our Universe and/or any of its neighbours.
Nothing more.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

This thread is great, I'm sure from Satan's perspective, whose number one goal is having people live in ignorance of his existence and/or methods....

1. Deny His Existence

One of the favorite ways in which Satan operates is to get people to deny that he exists. He seems to be most effective when people do not believe there is such a creature as the Devil. If he can get people to doubt his existence, then he can do much of his work without their knowing.
How Does Satan Keep Unbelievers in Spiritual Darkness?

Nice Rabbit Trail, and 100% misses the POINT.

The fact that you give Satan all the real power? Calls into doubt that your god has any left over...!

 

[InChrist]

Nice Rabbit Trail, and 100% misses the POINT.

The fact that you give Satan all the real power? Calls into doubt that your god has any left over...!

What is the point,from your perspective?

Satan is much more powerful than any human being, but has no power over God.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

What is the point,from your perspective?

Satan is much more powerful than any human being, but has no power over God.

If that is true? Satan *must* be an Agent OF god.

It cannot be any other way!

Just as a policeman who always looks the other way, when a particular criminal does criminal things?

So too, your god looks the other way-- worse-- with malice and deliberate intent, gave Satan power over earth!

Thus, Anything-- repeat ANYTHING that Satan does? IS with the explicit PERMISSION of your god!

To say otherwise, is to say Satan is more powerful than your god!

 

[74x12]

Disclaimer:
1: All the below is my personal opinion in my quest for truth. I Can be wrong. No disrespect.
2: IF someone would argue "this thread is crazy", then I would argue "not half as crazy as allowing religious people claiming `all go to hell unless they have accepted Jesus` etc.etc."

Since 1 year I see several religious persons try to impose on me/others that a real Devil/Satan exists using words like "we know that Satan is doing ...." etc. Very friendly if they like to warn us. But if untrue, this is just a burden to our mind and really useless. They should say "IMHO, I know that Satan is doing ...".

Now I do understand Atheists when Theists claim "we know that God is doing ...." etc. Exactly the same. And many make even a combi out of the two, adding Jesus or maybe Muhammad sometimes.

Is there a way to prove that God or Satan exists? If not, is it fair to claim they exist? Without using IMHO, this can be seen as a kind of brainwashing and emotional indoctrination, which IMO is not a good thing. I think it is our duty to scientifically disprove false claims, especially, because creating fear is a great stress in humans, causing many problems.

To proof that God exists is kind of difficult, as we don't have a proper definition of God even (that all agree on). But Satan is different ... Satan is the bad guy, who is after us. And we allegedly need Jesus to protect us. Some also claim that Satan is evil and will do anything to "get to you".

So far just words; I never saw Satan. It's time to stop this mental imagination imposing on us in year 2020

"Truth" or "Dare":
If Satan is out to "get us", then to prove this to be "Truth" I will "Dare" Satan to kill me tonight in between 22h and 06h. This is a one time offer. Not out of fear, but because of this above bold claim and me not being interested in wasting any more time with this Satan illusion (I have never considered Satan to be real, but being scientist, why not disprove this once and for all?). I am willing to sacrifice myself (to be killed) to Satan.

I did make a poll, to make it more scientific; if others like to join (not for the "faint of heart" of course).
And in the case Satan exists and kills all or some of the participants see Disclaimer below:
Disclaimer:
1) Whoever participates in the poll does so out of his/her own free will
2) RF (Religious Forums) nor anyone else can be held responsible or accountable

Beware: I do give Satan believers the benefit of the doubt. So I had to formulate the poll in a bit sinister way. Because in the case Satan is real (just to be complete), I will die, and won't be able to answer the poll.
* At 22h I select poll option 1/2: "I died, so Satan is true".
* At 06h I select poll option 3/4: "I died NOT, so Satan is false" + Deselect option 1/2:

Poll Question: I Dare Satan to kill me to prove He exists
Poll Options:
1: I died, so Satan is true
2: I died, so Satan might be true
3: I died NOT, so Satan is false
4: I died NOT, so Satan might be false
5: Too risky this experiment, I'll watch
6: I might participate maybe later
7: Satan won't take the challenge
8: I believe Satan exists
9: I believe Satan does not exist

Note 1: Satan should agree with 22h-06h time frame to make sure it's Satan and not coincidence.

Note 2: I will set the alarm to deselect "poll option 1" as soon as possible

Note 3: In case I do die, I am fine. I had a great life full of interesting challenges. All my own responsibility

I don't believe. I know Satan is real and as for your challenge; I really don't know what will happen. But apparently you've never heard the old saying that the greatest trick the devil ever played was convincing the world he doesn't exist. You must think the devil is stupid. If you were an actual threat to Satan or his plans then he wouldn't hesitate to kill you if he got the chance.

Suffice to say this is a pointless endeavor.

 

[Goodman John]

As some people reply when others demand God do this or that to prove his existence, "God doesn't do parlor tricks".

If God doesn't do parlor tricks, but yet he wants you believe in him, why would Satan do them when he's been trying for so long to convince everyone he doesn't exist?

Besides, why would Satan bother with squashing one person like a grape when he can kill thousands, or millions, with a well-placed plague or famine or drought? What makes one think they're so important that Satan would take a personal interest in them?

 

[Rise]

Thank you for your response

Maybe the "Bible Satan" is a flawed premise to begin with also

You are committing the logical fallacy of "avoiding the issue" by ignoring the logical objections I raised to your premise.
You have two flawed premises behind your experiment, and one of them does not require the Bible to be proven flawed.

The first flawed premise:
The idea that you can force satan to respond to your challenge is illogical. You have given no logical basis for your assumption that he would be forced to take you up on your challenge if he existed. Therefore, the entire premise of your experiment is flawed and the results scientifically invalid.

Your statement doesn't even attempt to address the first flaw in your premise at all.



Second, with your statement concerning the Biblical satan, there are three fundamental errors with what you said:
1. Your make an assertion without proof that the Biblical view of satan is flawed. You fail to give any reasons how the Biblical view of Satan is supposedly flawed.

2. You fail to give any reasons why those supposedly flaws in the Biblical satan would be relevant to countering the points I made about the flaws in your reasoning. You've failed to actually make any type of argument at all. All you've done is made an assertion, which makes you guilty of the logical fallacy of "argument by assertion". Merely claiming the Biblical satan is flawed and counters my points, but failing to demonstrate the truth of your assertion, is a logical fallacy. You don't establish the truth of your claim merely by asserting it's true. You need logical reasons and facts to establish it's truth.

3. It would be irrelevant even if true, which would make you guilty of the logical fallacy of "Irrelevant conclusion" if your claim were true. If you are setting out to prove or disprove the Biblical satan with an experiment then you are bound by the concept of satan given to us in the Bible for the parameters of your experiment. You can't invent a version of "satan" that is contrary to what the Bible says he is and then claim you disproved the Bible - that would be the logical fallacy of a "strawman". You created a fake version of satan, not consistent with the Bible, and then used that to claim you disproved the Biblical satan.
Now, if you are trying to disprove a different concept of "satan" from a different religious tradition that is not based on the Bible, then the responsibility is on you to identify exactly what concept of satan you are trying to prove or disprove - but you haven't done that. So which is it? Are you trying to disprove the Biblical satan, or some other idea of satan, or an idea of satan that is your own invention?

Maybe "your assumption" of the Bible, what you call "facts" are not really facts

You are guilty here of the logical fallacy "irrelevant conclusion". The question of whether or not the Bible is true is not relevant to the points I made, and your statement doesn't counter the points I made. In fact, the truth of the Bible is not even necessary to establish for the purposes of your test, and I will explain why:

You are the one claiming that you can prove or disprove that satan exists with an experiment - and if we presume you are trying to test the existence of satan as he is shown to be in the Bible, then as I said your test will only be valid if it is consistent with what the Bible says satan is like and what he is capable of. Otherwise you are guilty of setting up a "strawman" fallacy to knock down. You're inventing your own version of satan that you can give ultimatums to, force to take your test, and your invented version of satan has no limits on who he can kill or when. But your version of satan is not the Biblical satan - who has no obligation to take your test and is restrained until the end times concerning what he is allowed to do.

Whether or not the Bible is true is irrelevant at that point, if your goal is only to test whether or not the Biblical satan exists. Because your test only requires that you adhere to what the Bible says about satan in order to ensure you've designed a valid test. If your test is valid then you should be able to determine the truth of what is written with your test.

But your test isn't valid if you are trying to prove the Biblical satan because your test is not consistent with what the Bible says about satan. Your test fails before it is even attempted by virtue of having false premises. Unless you claim you are trying to prove a different concept of satan that isn't based on the Bible. In which case you need to state exactly what version of satan you're trying to prove and why your test is valid.

If we presume you are trying to test the existence of the Biblical satan, then it is an established scriptural fact that:
a) You have no basis for claiming you can force him to respond to your challenge.
b) You have no basis for assuming he could immediately act upon your invitation even he wanted to, because it's established as a Biblical fact that satan is restrained from doing all he would want to until the end times.

If you are trying to prove or disprove the existence of the Biblical satan then the facts of what the Bible says about satan become paramount to the entire premise of your experiment and whether or not it's valid. Otherwise you're testing a fabricated version of satan you made up, and not testing the Biblical satan. Your test is then scientifically invalid from the start, being founded on false premises.