Prove: Satan does (not) exist

[stvdv]

It was spawned from various readings. @siti once spoke of Athe, then I looked up what Urbandictionary had to say.

I could be wrong, but I think the idea may come from some ancient Greek goddess though. But it has been rehashed since then I think.

Goddess Athena I guess.

I do like the creative "Athe" Goddess for Atheists. When related to beautiful Goddess Athena Atheism does get some extra charm IMHO.

I might even be tempted to start praying to this Atheist Goddess Athe. Prayers are powerful (if God is real) , who knows "I might be able to create a new Atheism with a Goddess even". I wonder what current Atheists on RF would do then.

Disclaimer: This was just some fantasy creation at 5:17, probably due to the influence of my Satan challenge. I do hope the Atheists on RF feel not offended by my temporary insanity (I think it's insanity ... as to not offend the Satanists too). And if I have offended anyone, know it's the fault of the ones writing about Satan on RF. As I never contemplated the reality of Satan before, hence I would never had started such a thread on Satan.
Coundown started: In 36min from now this whole Satan veil will be gone. Poofff Satan

 

[stvdv]

So your god-- with malice and evil intent-- deliberately permits Satan to do all the Evil things in the world?

Again-- your god is Evil, therefore-- even a hint of Evil, taints the whole thing...

Apparently, your god is so inept, it could not create Free Will without also creating Pure, Malicious Evil.

Wow.... is that incompetent or what?

Are you describing God in the above or Satan? Seems to me, that they made their God into a Satan if you would ask me

 

[MonkeyFire]

I once thought I had compassion for hell now I have compassion to end hell. I only believe in heaven and God, no hell nor satan... ever after atleast.

 

[stvdv]

I solve the problem elegantly with Gnostic/Manichaean dualism: A Good God and an Evil Satan as equal and opposing forces in the spiritual realm. At one point God got the upper hand and Satan was defeated; in his defeat Satan created the physical realm (our universe) into which he escaped. (Yadda yadda Satan creates Man to be a servant, puts stolen spirits in Man to make him work, Christ comes along to let us know the deal, and it's game on.) When enough spirits/souls are returned to the spiritual realm the physical realm (again, our universe) will cease to exist and Satan will be returned to the spiritual realm to await the inevitable beat-down from God as punishment for making him wait. Satan pays his dues, balance is restored, and Things Continue Swimmingly until the next donnybrook between the two heavyweights. Maybe God wins again next time, maybe Satan wins. Assuming we make it 'back home', we'll have a ringside seat for the next cage match.

Thank you for your wonderful reply. First time I hear about Gnostic/Manichaean. Interesting view, probably I like it, because I feel some similarities with the Hindu view as I understood it.

 

[stvdv]

What makes one think they're so important that Satan would take a personal interest in them?

It has not been established, yet, that Satan does exist, hence the answer to your question has to wait

 

[stvdv]

I once thought I had compassion for hell now I have compassion to end hell. I only believe in heaven and God, no hell nor satan... ever after atleast.

Sounds good to me, a world without Satan

 

[stvdv]

But here's the thing: what if 'God' in the Old Testament- the vicious, jealous, spiteful, psychotic god that is presented- isn't 'God' at all, but Satan masquerading AS God?

Your version more sense to me.

Personally I see it as "how a Satanic mind sees God".

Satan does not need to exist. Demonic (satanic) thoughts in a human are enough to create demonic (satanic) scenarios in the world

 

[nPeace]

Thank you for sharing your view.


I love logic (most of the time), sometimes it is insufficient for me.

Just a few thoughts that were generated in me by reading your reply

A) Some verses in the Bible can be taken figuratively. Satan in control might "spiral things out of control"
B) From Hinduism and Buddhism I know there is an answer to achieve peace (roughly 1 billion)
C) That is a tricky one depending if one is in duality or non-duality or ...
D)
E) President Trump also claims a lot, but not all is true what he claims. But maybe even God is the author of Trump his mumbo jumbo[See D) ]

Are you sure "man is becoming more and more animal and loveless" ... in Muhammad's we had barbarians (seems better now in Holland at least)
Human evolving seems to go like waves (up/dn). But maybe in total slowly spiraling down
From Hinduism it is said Kali Yuga (worst time) just started (1% over now), so you might be right, that man is becoming more and more animal

The good thing is, that when we are aware of this fact, we can individually decide to step out of "animal kingdom" IMO

A) Some verses in the Bible can be taken figuratively. Satan in control might "spiral things out of control"

Ah, but that's the problem, right there.
I find persons are in the habit of deciding what a verse should mean without taking into consideration, the rest of scriptures, and by doing so, it is as if they are actually taking a ruler, and scratching off the markings, and putting their own. In this way, making it void.
Thus, it's no longer useful for measuring.
Sounds like a plan.

Now suppose someone did that, What would you do? Me, I would get another ruler, wouldn't you.
So here is one.
Revelation 12:7-9, 12
7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.
12 On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time.”

Job 1:6 Now the day came when the sons of the true God entered to take their station before Jehovah, and Satan also entered among them.
Zechariah 3:2 Then the angel of Jehovah said to Satan: “May Jehovah rebuke you, O Satan, yes, may Jehovah, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this one a burning log snatched out of the fire?”
1 John 5:19 We know that we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.
John 8:44, 45
44 You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie. 45 Because I, on the other hand, tell you the truth, you do not believe me.
Luke 10:18 At that he said to them: “I see Satan already fallen like lightning from heaven.
John 12:31 Now there is a judging of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.
John 14:30 I will not speak with you much more, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has no hold on me.

This ruler is accurate, shows one thing.
There is no room for Satan being anything other than described, as is evident from what I read in those scriptures. Someone feel free to show me otherwise.
It is evident to me, the Bible describes Satan as a real entity (person) who misleads others with lies and deception.
Is it no wonder, to me, that many try to distort the "ruler"?

So if A - that is, your A , is false, then your entire argument falls apart, and A - my A, is true.
This evidently is the case, according to the scriptures we read in the Bible, about Satan,

Indeed, 1 billion is a mere fraction out of 8 billion, so your B collapses right away. without even having to demolish A.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

To proof that God exists is kind of difficult, as we don't have a proper definition of God even (that all agree on). But Satan is different ... Satan is the bad guy, who is after us. And we allegedly need Jesus to protect us. Some also claim that Satan is evil and will do anything to "get to you".

So far just words; I never saw Satan. It's time to stop this mental imagination imposing on us in year 2020

I don't think satan would really want to just outright prove himself, it seems like something that rather test people than kill them, and probably fool people into sinning because they didn't think he was around. So I guess it just doesn't seem like a good test

 

[nPeace]

IF A is true? THEN your god is just FINE with Satan, regardless of what people may or may not do.

No. This would not be true from a reasonable point of view, since according to scripture, God has determined to crush Satan, and his works - which he considers in opposition to him.
In the same way, you are not fine with what you consider to be horribly wrong. Are you?

Who permitted A, in the first place? Obviously, you believe your god did.

Yes. According to scripture.
There is a difference between permit, and do, or condone.

Thus? Your Satan is the Agent of your God.

No. Not according to scripture, nor logic.

That is inescapable logic: Your god is responsible for everything Satan may or may not do.

No. That would not be according to logic... unless it be twisted logic. Just as no one but you, is responsible for what you do, or don't do.
Your parents are not responsible for what you do. Are they?

For starters? Having Created Satan in the first place...

No. Not according to scripture. God created spiritual beings. Satan made himself what he is.
In the same way God did not create Atheist. Atheists made themselves such. Isn't that true?

 

[74x12]

So:
1) You believe in God
2) You know Satan

Seems to me you ARE a Satanist now
(As per your own words; not mine; and a Strong Satanist claiming to know; it's not even belief anymore)

Well that's a ... creative response. I'll give you that much.

When I say I *believe* in God that doesn't mean I don't also already *know* He is real by the way.

 

[74x12]

In the book of Job, "...the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life". Job 2:6. Satan makes an appearance in Heaven. As an angel he had a lot of power. The only limitation God put on Satan was that he couldn't kill Job and Messiah. What Satan did try to do was to get them to commit suicide. In the book of Job, Satan is called a "son of God". Job 1:6, 2:1. Adam the serpent is the only literal son of God. He has been reincarnated and he is the father of God. His new name is Christian Alexander Lange VI.

It says he appeared among the sons of God. Big difference. He was a son of God like the other angels but he gave that up.

I have no idea why you would think that Adam is a serpent. That's a new one; even for me.

As for Adam being the "father of God" ... how is anyone the father of God?

And who is "Christian Alexander Lange VI"?

 

[stvdv]

Ah, but that's the problem, right there.
I find persons are in the habit of deciding what a verse should mean without taking into consideration, the rest of scriptures

My Scriptures teaches me things like:
1) Prophets, Messengers, Avatars when bringing their teachings make use of stories a lot. This way one can't rely blind, but has to develop common sense and discrimination. Also this way there will be deeper or other meanings available depending on the one searching
2) "Use common sense before Divine Sense". Hence if a Scripture verse feels wrong according to my common sense and discrimination I better discard it.
3) There is not one way for all
4) If 1 interpretation feels good for you, but not for me, does not mean you are wrong and I am right or v.v. . It just means we go different ways at that moment
5) All ways are valid. 1 is not better, it's different, as all humans are unique travelling their own unique way

So I do take other verses into consideration. I just see different meaning in these verses. For me it's not about right or wrong. And definitely I don't think that you are on the wrong path or that my path is better, as my main focus is to "walk my way", for sure not to "judge your way"

it is as if they are actually taking a ruler, and scratching off the markings, and putting their own. In this way, making it void.
Thus, it's no longer useful for measuring.

Nice analogy. Works fine with math, but not with Spirituality for me, as I explained above.

Now suppose someone did that, What would you do? Me, I would get another ruler, wouldn't you.

No, as you understand by now

There is no room for Satan being anything other than described, as is evident from what I read in those scriptures.

I respect that you see it that way. For you, that is the right way to go. Just continue, and I am confident you reach your goal as you are very sincere in your quest. Never doubt your chosen path. Neither do I doubt my chosen path.

So if A - that is, your A , is false, then your entire argument falls apart, and A - my A, is true.
This evidently is the case, according to the scriptures we read in the Bible, about Satan,

I don't keep score who is right or wrong.

I am not sure if it is possible for a human to grasp the full Truth of God. The Universe is vast, human is infinitesimal. I would be surprised to be able to see the full Truth of God, as I don't know yet everything in the universe even. I even can't control my digestion etc, so I don't have any illusion.

Just becoming more and more humble and in awe and wonder when thinking about God, universe, when realizing how magnificient all is, beyond my grasp.

Indeed, 1 billion is a mere fraction out of 8 billion, so your B collapses right away. without even having to demolish A.

I just said that those 1 billion do have the answer as to how achieve peace. Nothing about proving, collapsing, demolishing anything.

So we seem to have quite some difference in views. Fine for me. I agree to disagree on the differences and rather focus on the things we have in common. Things like respect, Love, duty etc. Plenty good things we have in common from my POV.

 

[stvdv]

I don't think satan would really want to just outright prove himself, it seems like something that rather test people than kill them, and probably fool people into sinning because they didn't think he was around. So I guess it just doesn't seem like a good test

You think "Satan won't kill"
I know "Satan won't kill" (since 2h47m)

So it was a good test for me

 

[stvdv]

Well that's a ... creative response. I'll give you that much.

Thanks

When I say I *believe* in God that doesn't mean I don't also already *know* He is real by the way.

Self + God Confidence are important
Glad to see you have those

 

[stvdv]

I have no idea why you would think that Adam is a serpent. That's a new one; even for me.

You really had me smile with that reply
I had a similar thought

 

[stvdv]

God has determined to crush Satan, and his works

That's the kind of God I LoveCrush

 

[stvdv]

Your parents are not responsible for what you do. Are they?

IMHO (my analogy for the whole reply
If the baker bakes a wedding cake, is he responsible for how it turns out? Yes, so he needs to use proper ingredients, amounts and temperature. He will be held fully responsible, after being paid to deliver (hence I won't make wedding cakes )

In a similar way parents are responsible for how kids turn out. If a father teaches his sun to steal or rape girls (some seem to do, even priests) the father can never blame the son when son rapes or steals.

The father first needs to apologize (this is a ritual done in Indonesian culture; parents asking their 18 year old child to forgive them for the mistakes they made). When the child has forgiven them the slate is clean, and for sure such a child can be called mature, and won't blame parents anymore (how many in the West still blame parents?). Clean slate also means parents not anymore responsible. He is now responsible.

So although parents are responsible (as most never ask forgiveness for their mistakes) it is still wiser for the child to forgive them anyway and take his own responsibility, otherwise he will get in trouble.

In the same way, God who created this universe (all of it) is fully and solely responsible for whatever happens. And be happy God does take His responsibility serious, because humans can hardly take care of themselves (regulate heartbeat and all kind of stuff is fortunately for us been taken care of by God).

So, as God is fully responsible for all the pain in His Creation, He gave solutions.

Not all are having this "chatty" relationship with God, so God could not ask all to forgive Him (most don't listen; same as naughty kids). God "feeling" very responsible "must" have felt really bad (of course that's all human superimposition, not reality, just for the sake of explanation).

Luckily, being the Creator, it was a peace of (wedding) cake for God to solve this.

So God came up with an update:
Please accept my apology, in the form of Jesus for the Christians. Rama, Krishna for the Hindus; God must have loved them a lot, for they got plenty of options; or maybe they needed that many, as God should love all His Children equally I would say. Just be humane for the humanist etc. etc.

In this view Atheists can not and will not be judged by God. If Christians judge them it's their responsibility. Meaning asking forgiveness etc. when they finally discover they had it wrong. Because God forgave them, which means they are free, but also from now on responsible for what they do.

Hence it's easy to understand why Jesus put so much emphasis on "Do not judge". God forgave them big time. Grateful means to not judge others.

 

[nPeace]

IMHO (my analogy for the whole reply
If the baker bakes a wedding cake, is he responsible for how it turns out? Yes, so he needs to use proper ingredients, amounts and temperature. He will be held fully responsible, after being paid to deliver (hence I won't make wedding cakes )

In a similar way parents are responsible for how kids turn out. If a father teaches his sun to steal or rape girls (some seem to do, even priests) the father can never blame the son when son rapes or steals.

The father first needs to apologize (this is a ritual done in Indonesian culture; parents asking their 18 year old child to forgive them for the mistakes they made). When the child has forgiven them the slate is clean, and for sure such a child can be called mature, and won't blame parents anymore (how many in the West still blame parents?). Clean slate also means parents not anymore responsible. He is now responsible.

So although parents are responsible (as most never ask forgiveness for their mistakes) it is still wiser for the child to forgive them anyway and take his own responsibility, otherwise he will get in trouble.

In the same way, God who created this universe (all of it) is fully and solely responsible for whatever happens. And be happy God does take His responsibility serious, because humans can hardly take care of themselves (regulate heartbeat and all kind of stuff is fortunately for us been taken care of by God).

So, as God is fully responsible for all the pain in His Creation, He gave solutions.

Not all are having this "chatty" relationship with God, so God could not ask all to forgive Him (most don't listen; same as naughty kids). God "feeling" very responsible "must" have felt really bad (of course that's all human superimposition, not reality, just for the sake of explanation).

Luckily, being the Creator, it was a peace of (wedding) cake for God to solve this.

So God came up with an update:
Please accept my apology, in the form of Jesus for the Christians. Rama, Krishna for the Hindus; God must have loved them a lot, for they got plenty of options; or maybe they needed that many, as God should love all His Children equally I would say. Just be humane for the humanist etc. etc.

In this view Atheists can not and will not be judged by God. If Christians judge them it's their responsibility. Meaning asking forgiveness etc. when they finally discover they had it wrong. Because God forgave them, which means they are free, but also from now on responsible for what they do.

Hence it's easy to understand why Jesus put so much emphasis on "Do not judge". God forgave them big time. Grateful means to not judge others.

So you brought bread from Mum's Homemade Bakery.
You take the bread home, and put it in the freezer.
Or...
You gather a few eggs just freshly hatched from your prized hen.
You put them in a bag containing your work equipment.

The way I see it, we need to take all the factors into consideration.
Parents may not teach their child to rape and steal. They may teach the child good values, but then the child rapes and steals. Are the parents responsible?

There are examples in the Bible that show the answer is No.
Children were raised by bad parents, and turned out good.
Children were raised by good parents, and turned out bad.
What happened?
Influence - whom they associated with - the friends they chose.

So when the baker's bread leaves his bakery, it is no longer the baker's responsible.
If a dog grabs it, and you have to chase the dog through the mud in order to get it back, please don't go complaining to the baker, that your bread tastes like mud. imo.

 

[nPeace]

My Scriptures teaches me things like:
1) Prophets, Messengers, Avatars when bringing their teachings make use of stories a lot. This way one can't rely blind, but has to develop common sense and discrimination. Also this way there will be deeper or other meanings available depending on the one searching
2) "Use common sense before Divine Sense". Hence if a Scripture verse feels wrong according to my common sense and discrimination I better discard it.
3) There is not one way for all
4) If 1 interpretation feels good for you, but not for me, does not mean you are wrong and I am right or v.v. . It just means we go different ways at that moment
5) All ways are valid. 1 is not better, it's different, as all humans are unique travelling their own unique way

So I do take other verses into consideration. I just see different meaning in these verses. For me it's not about right or wrong. And definitely I don't think that you are on the wrong path or that my path is better, as my main focus is to "walk my way", for sure not to "judge your way"


Nice analogy. Works fine with math, but not with Spirituality for me, as I explained above.


No, as you understand by now


I respect that you see it that way. For you, that is the right way to go. Just continue, and I am confident you reach your goal as you are very sincere in your quest. Never doubt your chosen path. Neither do I doubt my chosen path.


I don't keep score who is right or wrong.

I am not sure if it is possible for a human to grasp the full Truth of God. The Universe is vast, human is infinitesimal. I would be surprised to be able to see the full Truth of God, as I don't know yet everything in the universe even. I even can't control my digestion etc, so I don't have any illusion.

Just becoming more and more humble and in awe and wonder when thinking about God, universe, when realizing how magnificient all is, beyond my grasp.


I just said that those 1 billion do have the answer as to how achieve peace. Nothing about proving, collapsing, demolishing anything.

So we seem to have quite some difference in views. Fine for me. I agree to disagree on the differences and rather focus on the things we have in common. Things like respect, Love, duty etc. Plenty good things we have in common from my POV.

Well, I already gave an example to show how easy it is to make void, an accurate measuring instrument.
Just scratch the markings off the ruler, because we don't think they are right, and put our own marks. That way, the ruler gives the measurement that suit us, and we make our own path with that.

I don't think that is going to lead us to any accurate knowledge of truth.
When I want to know the length of the object I am considering, I trust the ruler, rather than my own estimation.