Prove: Satan does (not) exist

[stvdv]

The way I see it, we need to take all the factors into consideration.

You took my examples out of context ignoring the main Indonesian lesson. Why?

 

[nPeace]

That's the kind of God I LoveCrush

Me too. At least I can have confidence in his crushing ability.
Can you imagine yourself, not being able to crush a mosquito?

 

[nPeace]

You took my examples out of context ignoring the main Indonesian lesson. Why?

Sorry. Perhaps I misunderstood.
I'll look over it again.

 

[nPeace]

Looking at your post again, I don't think I misunderstood, or took it out of context, or ignored anything @stvdv. Perhaps you can correct me. What did I get wrong?

 

[stvdv]

Looking at your post again, I don't think I misunderstood, or took it out of context, or ignored anything @stvdv. Perhaps you can correct me. What did I get wrong?

It was about "If a parent makes a mistake then the parent should say sorry". And showing the Indonesian culture example.

You concluded with "So when the baker's bread leaves his bakery, it is no longer the baker's responsible."

My whole point was "before it leaves the bakery, it should be finished off nicely"
This is done by parents saying sorry for the mistakes made (if they were made, but who does not?)
And of course the children will happily forgive the parents as they did also many good things (exceptions might be there)
Doing it this way, the parents show that they take the children serious now, not a child anymore ... equals, hence the needed sorry
I have seen in the West that most grown ups are kind of allergic to saying sorry
I understand this, because their parents did not say sorry, so why should they themselves now

I really like this Indonesian custom. Makes a lot of sense. Respect is lacking big time in my country
The Dutch took a lot from Indonesia, they should have taken this IMO

After that .. I agree with your response, that it's no longer the baker's responsibility
And I of course agree that there can be good kids and bad parenting also
And bad kids with good parenting (although, not 100% sure, but not in the scope of this thread)

 

[stvdv]

When I want to know the length of the object I am considering, I trust the ruler, rather than my own estimation.

Then you should trust the ruler as I said before. I see nothing wrong in you trusting the ruler
I trust my own estimation. I see nothing wrong in that either, as I trust my own estimation
If you don't trust your own estimation, then you are right, you better trust the ruler

But if you don't trust your own estimation, does not necessarily mean that I can't trust my own estimation either

Hence I concluded: I agree to disagree on certain things, but rather focus on things we can agree on

 

[susanblange]

It says he appeared among the sons of God. Big difference. He was a son of God like the other angels but he gave that up.

I have no idea why you would think that Adam is a serpent. That's a new one; even for me.

As for Adam being the "father of God" ... how is anyone the father of God?

And who is "Christian Alexander Lange VI"?

The serpent was a part of Adam's anatomy. God the Messiah has a father and a mother. A&E were naked and what they did was a sexual act. There was no talking snake or magical fruit. The story of A&E is a parable and is not meant to be taken literally. It will be the parable at the Messiah's trial. Psalm 49:4, Psalm 78:2. Christian A Lange is Adam/Satan and my father.

 

[nPeace]

It was about "If a parent makes a mistake then the parent should say sorry". And showing the Indonesian culture example.

You concluded with "So when the baker's bread leaves his bakery, it is no longer the baker's responsible."

My whole point was "before it leaves the bakery, it should be finished off nicely"
This is done by parents saying sorry for the mistakes made (if they were made, but who does not?)
And of course the children will happily forgive the parents as they did also many good things (exceptions might be there)
Doing it this way, the parents show that they take the children serious now, not a child anymore ... equals, hence the needed sorry
I have seen in the West that most grown ups are kind of allergic to saying sorry
I understand this, because their parents did not say sorry, so why should they themselves now

I really like this Indonesian custom. Makes a lot of sense. Respect is lacking big time in my country
The Dutch took a lot from Indonesia, they should have taken this IMO

After that .. I agree with your response, that it's no longer the baker's responsibility
And I of course agree that there can be good kids and bad parenting also
And bad kids with good parenting (although, not 100% sure, but not in the scope of this thread)

It seems I did ignore what you said was the main Indonesian lesson.
This is because I thought you were just commenting on it, as I didn't see it as being connected to what I thought was the main point - namely, whether parents were responsible for their children's choices and actions.

Since your analogy was used to make the point that "parents are responsible for how kids turn out." and you went on to add that "God who created this universe (all of it) is fully and solely responsible for whatever happens."
I was really trying to show how, and why I don't agree that this is the case.

To further demonstrate this... the Bible says: (Deuteronomy 32:5) They are the ones who have acted corruptly. They are not his children, the defect is their own. They are a crooked and twisted generation!

This is what we observe happens. We are the ones who make the choices, and take the action. Sometimes those choices are bad, and especially when we don't listen to wise guidance.
Our bad choices then result in bad consequences. The defect is our own - not our parents, and certainly not God's, as the scriptures show.

I hope we agree at least, on that.

Then you should trust the ruler as I said before. I see nothing wrong in you trusting the ruler
I trust my own estimation. I see nothing wrong in that either, as I trust my own estimation
If you don't trust your own estimation, then you are right, you better trust the ruler

But if you don't trust your own estimation, does not necessarily mean that I can't trust my own estimation either

Hence I concluded: I agree to disagree on certain things, but rather focus on things we can agree on

I tend to prefer an accurate measure, as it prevents me from robbing myself and others.
For example, if someone asks me for 3 pounds of salt, or okra, etc., I can use my scales, and weights, to measure accurately. So I feel good knowing within myself that I was honest, and fair to the person.

In a similar way, when it comes to knowledge of God, I don't want to feel that I have robbed people, by giving them what I think, or estimate, but using a guide - a measuring instrument. This way, I think I am being honest, and fair to them.

However, I do appreciate everyone right to choose how they do things.

 

[Rise]

You think "Satan won't kill"
I know "Satan won't kill" (since 2h47m)

So it was a good test for me

Why are you still insisting on this charade that your experiment is scientifically valid when you weren't able to answer the reasons I gave about why it's invalid?

You stopped responding because you know you can't answer my points, but that doesn't make your experiment valid just because you ignore the problems with it and try to carry on talking with others as though your experiment is still valid.
And you claimed you were a scientist of some sort? That's not how good science is conducted.

You have to do three things before your experiment is scientifically valid:
1. First establish what version of satan you're trying to prove or disprove. If it's the Biblical satan, then you are constrained by the Biblical description of satan's attributes and abilities for the purposes of what you are trying to prove or disprove.

Assuming you are trying to test the Biblical satan:
2. Prove you have a Biblical basis for believing you can force satan to answer your challenge on your timetable, in your way.
3. Prove you have a Biblical basis for believing satan is free to act immediately on your invitation, and could not possibly be restrained in any way.


I can tell you right now you won't be able to prove the assumptions behind your experiment are true because the support isn't in the Bible for what you claim.

And if you aren't trying to test the Biblical satan then any good scientist would know to clearly define what they are testing before they start the experiment. I don't think you have a clear idea of what version of satan you want to test because you ignored my question asking you to clarify if you were trying to test the Biblical satan, some other concept of satan, or an invention of your own mind.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Are you describing God in the above or Satan? Seems to me, that they made their God into a Satan if you would ask me

Indeed. The Cognitive Dissonance is strong with that theology.

They seem to fail to comprehend the Consequences of Only One God, who has All the Power.

They want their Cake, and Edith too.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

I once thought I had compassion for hell now I have compassion to end hell. I only believe in heaven and God, no hell nor satan... ever after atleast.

Did the Satan character ever exist? If so-- then your version of god had failed in it's responsibilities.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

No. This would not be true from a reasonable point of view, since according to scripture, God has determined to crush Satan, and his works - which he considers in opposition to him..

Except there are no examples where this has happened. So. When? Your god seems to be quite incompetent.

In the same way, you are not fine with what you consider to be horribly wrong. Are you?.

I'm not a god, am I? Moreover: Unlike your incompetent, do-nothing goddie?

I would stop any crimes/sin/horribly wrong things within my power to stop.

I'm more moral than your god. By a lot, actually...

Yes. According to scripture.
There is a difference between permit, and do, or condone..

No. There isn't. That's just an excuse...

No. Not according to scripture, nor logic..

You keep using the word "logic" in ways that do not match any of the standard definitions...

hmmmmm...

No. That would not be according to logic... unless it be twisted logic. Just as no one but you, is responsible for what you do, or don't do..

Again-- you miss-use the word 'logic'. Responsibility flows downhill AND uphill. IF god has ALL THE POWER, THEN god is DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE.

Your parents are not responsible for what you do. Are they?.

False analogy: Parents do not have absolute power, nor absolute knowledge.

You keep forgetting that part.

No. Not according to scripture. God created spiritual beings. Satan made himself what he is.
.

Really? So Satan is more powerful-- by a lot-- than your god?

Okaaay. That would actually explain what you said, above-- if Satan was the most powerful? And Satan created everything-- then your theology actually works.

In the same way God did not create Atheist. Atheists made themselves such. Isn't that true?

No. That would mean Atheists are more powerful than your god!

And no again-- I did not "make" myself an atheist-- it is the logical consequence of your feeble, inept and incompetent god's utter, complete failure to be convincing to a rational person.

IF your god were REAL? IT WOULD KNOW HOW TO BE CONVINCING.

That it refuses to be convincing? Proves it's maliciously evil--

--- or simply suffers from a failure to be existing.

 

[stvdv]

you went on to add that "God who created this universe (all of it) is fully and solely responsible for whatever happens."
I was really trying to show how, and why I don't agree that this is the case.

I understand that you have a different view on this, which is obvious as you follow Christian Faith and I follow Eastern Faith.
There seem to be a few minor differences I have seen. For me differences are not a problem, as long as there is mutual respect

We are the ones who make the choices, and take the action.
Sometimes those choices are bad, and especially when we don't listen to wise guidance.

Listening to wise guidance is of paramount importance, hence I stayed with my Master for 10 years

Our bad choices then result in bad consequences. The defect is our own - not our parents, and certainly not God's, as the scriptures show.

IMO: Everyone is responsible for their own Creations. children, parents and God also of course (He made us in His Image)
God is responsible for the big picture (has to take care of the Universe He created; He can't hold me responsible for His Galaxies)
Parents are responsible for the family. Making babies and all that stuff.
Individuals are responsible for their actions

I hope we agree at least, on that.

I told you that your path is the right path for you, and my path is the right path for me
Even if you don't agree with that, then the above line still works for me, so I am fine with you not agreeing with me

In a similar way, when it comes to knowledge of God, I don't want to feel that I have robbed people, by giving them what I think, or estimate, but using a guide - a measuring instrument. This way, I think I am being honest, and fair to them.

However, I do appreciate everyone right to choose how they do things.

Seems honest and fair to me.
But you believe the Bible to be the Truth. So that is your guide, your measuring instrument
So in a way you give them what you think to be correct, meaning the Bible. And so do others.

I have been in India and read fantastic Scriptures which I believe to be the Truth
So that is my guide, my measuring instrument. That is what I give,and what I think to be correct

Some time back I was thinking "what is really my own, especially when it comes to knowledge?"
I came into this world with nothing. Everything was given to me. So nothing is really from me.
Some people make offerings to God. In a way very strange. All belongs to God, how can we give Him what already belongs to Him

 

[stvdv]

However, I do appreciate everyone right to choose how they do things.

That is a line I fully agree with. Being on RF now for some time, I can really feel I appreciate it even "how all think different". Makes it interesting.

 

[stvdv]

Why are you still insisting on this charade that your experiment is scientifically valid when you weren't able to answer the reasons I gave about why it's invalid?

So you are free to impose Bible Satan on me. Giving as proof the Bible. Kind of circular.

Anyway, I never asked you to impose your Bible Satan on me. So I am free to discard. Which I did.

And now you tell me that I need to dance according to your tune to disprove your created Satan?

Go think again.

If you take the freedom to impose your fantasies on me, I take the freedom to discard whichever way I want

Do you have a problem with that, then I advise you "to not create that problem in the first place"

Freedom of Religion does not include "Freedom to impose Religion on others" (would defeat the whole purpose)

 

[1213]

...
Note 1: Satan should agree with 22h-06h time frame to make sure it's Satan and not coincidence.

Note 2: I will set the alarm to deselect "poll option 1" as soon as possible

Note 3: In case I do die, I am fine. I had a great life full of interesting challenges. All my own responsibility

Satan can’t do anything that God doesn’t allow. So, if you don’t die, it can be because God didn’t allow that.

 

[Rise]

So you are free to impose Bible Satan on me. Giving as proof the Bible. Kind of circular.

Anyway, I never asked you to impose your Bible Satan on me. So I am free to discard. Which I did.

And now you tell me that I need to dance according to your tune to disprove your created Satan?

Go think again.

If you take the freedom to impose your fantasies on me, I take the freedom to discard whichever way I want

Do you have a problem with that, then I advise you "to not create that problem in the first place"

Freedom of Religion does not include "Freedom to impose Religion on others" (would defeat the whole purpose)

There are three fatal problems with your response:
1. You're guilty of the logical fallacy of "strawman". I never said you had to try to prove/disprove the Biblical satan.
I asked you what version of satan you are trying to disprove, and pointed out why your version of satan is not consistent with the Biblical satan if that's what you're trying to disprove.

2. You are committing the logical fallacy of "avoiding the issue". You still haven't given an answer for what version of satan you are trying to prove or disprove, which is required to establish whether or not the test you've designed is a valid way of proving anything. Your test isn't scientifically valid unless you can specify the parameters of what you're trying to prove or disprove.

3. Your statement contradicts your stated purpose for this thread:

Since 1 year I see several religious persons try to impose on me/others that a real Devil/Satan exists using words like "we know that Satan is doing ...." etc. Very friendly if they like to warn us. But if untrue, this is just a burden to our mind and really useless. They should say "IMHO, I know that Satan is doing ...".

You specifically stated you want to disprove the idea of satan that others have communicated to you. Presumably you are talking about Christians, in which case their beliefs about satan are likely drawn from the Bible.
If that is not the case, the onus is on you to specify as part of your experiment who exactly you are referring to and what their idea of satan is that you are trying to disprove.
If you cannot clearly specify the parameters of the subject being tested then your test is invalid because no conclusions can be drawn from the results of your test because you never specified what you were actually testing.


I can further point out that your original test is fatally flawed and scientifically invalid for a simple logical reason that does not depend on the Bible:
Your argument is based on an assumption you can't prove. I will explain:

To proof that God exists is kind of difficult, as we don't have a proper definition of God even (that all agree on). But Satan is different ... Satan is the bad guy, who is after us. And we allegedly need Jesus to protect us. Some also claim that Satan is evil and will do anything to "get to you".

So far just words; I never saw Satan. It's time to stop this mental imagination imposing on us in year 2020

"Truth" or "Dare":
If Satan is out to "get us", then to prove this to be "Truth" I will "Dare" Satan to kill me tonight in between 22h and 06h. This is a one time offer. Not out of fear, but because of this above bold claim and me not being interested in wasting any more time with this Satan illusion (I have never considered Satan to be real, but being scientist, why not disprove this once and for all?). I am willing to sacrifice myself (to be killed) by Satan.

We see from your own comments you don't have a clear idea of what you are testing, other than the idea that satan is a "bad guy" and "out to get you". And you clearly presume that if satan kills you then it is established that he's a "bad guy" who is "out to get you". Fair enough assumption.

However, here you go off the rails into illogical absurdity with your presumption that the only thing stopping satan from killing you is the fact that you need to invite him or dare him to do it. You'd have to be presuming your invitation/dare is sufficient cause to let satan kill you, thus proving he's a bad guy if he acts on the opportunity, otherwise your test is invalid.

But what is your basis for assuming that satan is free to kill you within 24 hours just because you invited or dared him to?
You need to prove your assumption is true for your test to be valid.
But you have no logical reason to believe those assumptions are true.

And if you can't establish the truth of that assumption then your entire argument falls apart and your test is scientifically and logically invalid from start to finish.
As someone who claims to be a scientist, you should recognize the seriousness of conducting an experiment based on false assumptions. It's not valid and will likely give you false results.

 

[stvdv]

Satan can’t do anything that God doesn’t allow. So, if you don’t die, it can be because God didn’t allow that.

I Agree. If Satan exists it's only by God's Grace.

When I created the thread I put in:
Note 0: I need not worry about Satan killing me, because my Master personally told me "You only die if I want".

I took this Note out later.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Note 3: In case I do die, I am fine. I had a great life full of interesting challenges. All my own responsibility

Satan exists, as it is our own self, our own choices. Satan/Evil is the darkness that is lack of light.

Regards Tony

 

[stvdv]

There are three fatal problems with your response:
1. You're guilty of the logical fallacy of "strawman". I never said you had to try to prove/disprove the Biblical satan.
I asked you what version of satan you are trying to disprove, and pointed out why your version of satan is not consistent with the Biblical satan if that's what you're trying to disprove.

2. You are committing the logical fallacy of "avoiding the issue". You still haven't given an answer for what version of satan you are trying to prove or disprove, which is required to establish whether or not the test you've designed is a valid way of proving anything. Your test isn't scientifically valid unless you can specify the parameters of what you're trying to prove or disprove.

3. Your statement contradicts your stated purpose for this thread:

You specifically stated you want to disprove the idea of satan that others have communicated to you. Presumably you are talking about Christians, in which case their beliefs about satan are likely drawn from the Bible.
If that is not the case, the onus is on you to specify as part of your experiment who exactly you are referring to and what their idea of satan is that you are trying to disprove.
If you cannot clearly specify the parameters of the subject being tested then your test is invalid because no conclusions can be drawn from the results of your test because you never specified what you were actually testing.


I can further point out that your original test is fatally flawed and scientifically invalid for a simple logical reason that does not depend on the Bible:
Your argument is based on an assumption you can't prove. I will explain:



We see from your own comments you don't have a clear idea of what you are testing, other than the idea that satan is a "bad guy" and "out to get you". And you clearly presume that if satan kills you then it is established that he's a "bad guy" who is "out to get you". Fair enough assumption.

However, here you go off the rails into illogical absurdity with your presumption that the only thing stopping satan from killing you is the fact that you need to inviting him or dare him to do it. And you'd have to be assuming that because the premise of your test is based on the idea that satan wants to kill you. Well, if satan wants to kill you, but you're still alive, then your test presumes there is something stopping him from doing it.
So the problem with your test is that you don't specify what you think it is that is stopping satan from killing you prior to the start of the test, nor do you specify why you think your test will force satan to act and reveal he is a bad guy by killing you.

Where is the basis for your assumptions You need to prove your assumption is true for your test to be valid.
You have no logical reason to believe those assumptions are true.

And if you can't establish the truth of that assumption then your entire argument falls apart and your test is scientifically and logically invalid from start to finish.
As someone who claims to be a scientist, you should recognize the seriousness of conducting an experiment based on false assumptions. It's not valid and will likely give you false results.

The one claiming Satan exists must prove it.

So far no one has proven this. Just empy claims.

So I discard Satan as not existent

Except as a fantasy in the mind of some