Proven Science says there is No Universe without Conscious Man to Observe it.

[columbus]

I don't pretend to understand the most sophisticated modern science.
From dark matter to the speed of light being a limit to how people know that the universe started 15B years ago. There's lots of things I don't understand, because I spend my time and effort on other stuff, like art and morality.

But what it appears that the OP is claiming is that God (a supernatural being) is not why reality exists. Reality exists because humans conjured it up by perceiving it.

Maybe that's true. It doesn't make any sense to me, but lot's of things don't. It certainly eliminates God. There's no reason to consider the existence of a supernatural being conjuring up reality if we mortals can do it on our own.
Tom

 

[ecco]

What is wrong in Bohr’s saying "It is meaningless to assign Reality to the universe in the absence of observation; in the intervals between measurement, quantum systems truly exist as a fuzzy mixture of all possible properties"?

There is nothing wrong with Bohr saying it. That doesn't mean he is correct.

 

[ecco]

Science cannot claim evolution when proven science indicates that the universe does not exist without conscious man to observe it. No universe before/without conscious man, thus no evolution before conscious man.

If there was a universe five days before Adam was created, it would be a scientific miracle.

Where did Bohr say the observation had to be done by a "conscious man"?

Why did you take it upon yourself to intentionally twist what Bohr said?

 

[loverofhumanity]

G
Now you are making a God of the Gaps argument. It is a variation on an argument from ignorance where God gets pigeonholed into ever shrinking boxes. It amounts to "You don't know, therefore God". Another logical fallacy.

Also your understanding of what a superstition is needs some work. As does your understanding of evolution and abiogenesis. There is no sign that a creator is needed it is superstition to believe in one.

That’s just your opinion and so I respect that. Then you go your way and I’ll go mine.

 

[loverofhumanity]

You've a weird idea of proof.
"Perfection" is just a word to describe
an ideal.
"Utopia" is a word for a perfect state.
That hardly proves it exists somewhere.

Your bit about who is superstitious is too
precious to comment on, other than to note
that of course you believe that.
It is what "believers" do; singers sing, believers
believe.
And it seems to hardly matter if they make
something up themselves. or let someone
else to it for them. Believers believe.

Words represent realities too. Perfection and imperfection do exist. Knowledge and ignorance are realities also that we see in daily life. So are light and darkness.

These are not ideals only but things we can recognise in life.

I cannot accept that something as complex as a computer has a programmer and assembler yet the human body does not. To me it is a chimera that the human body could have come about by nature alone. That doesn’t mean I don’t accept evolution, I do, but that the processes were formulated and set in place by a Supreme Being of unimagined intelligence.

 

[Subduction Zone]

That’s just your opinion and so I respect that. Then you go your way and I’ll go mine.

You need to learn the difference between an opinion and a correction. Your argument is based upon logical fallacies.

 

[loverofhumanity]

You need to learn the difference between an opinion and a correction. Your argument is based upon logical fallacies.

According to you.

 

[Subduction Zone]

According to you.

No, according to anyone that understands logical fallacies.

 

[Steven Merten]

But what it appears that the OP is claiming is that God (a supernatural being) is not why reality exists. Reality exists because humans conjured it up by perceiving it.

Hello Columbus,
I never said anything near implying that God is not why we exist. On the contrary, a universe which only exists in conjunction with man, is very close to God's story of building everything in the universe, in six days, as a home to place, love for God capable, man.

 

[Steven Merten]

A number of people have claimed that animals can cause a wave to collapse into a particle by observation. Do you have proof on this? Seems it would be very simple for you to prove. Simply start up the electron gun and parade the animals through to see which ones trip an electron wave to collapse into a particle.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

A number of people have claimed that animals can cause a wave to collapse into a particle by observation. Do you have proof on this? Seems it would be very simple for you to prove. Simply start up the electron gun and parade the animals through to see which ones trip an electron wave to collapse into a particle.

Actually, it's any form of measurement. The point is that electrons are too small to actually be viewed by an animal; once a determinate outcome becomes detectable, by any means and by any measure, the waveform collapses.

SOURCE: Wave function collapse - Wikipedia

In terms of the double slit experiment, it isn't literally "observing" the process that collapses the waveform, it's putting in place systems which detect the action of the particle prior to its final "state" that cases the collapse.

So, in other words, if a quantum state causes something such that it becomes detectable on any level (be it by human consciousness or otherwise), that causes it to collapse.

At least, that's my understanding.

 

[Audie]

Words represent realities too. Perfection and imperfection do exist. Knowledge and ignorance are realities also that we see in daily life. So are light and darkness.

These are not ideals only but things we can recognise in life.

I cannot accept that something as complex as a computer has a programmer and assembler yet the human body does not. To me it is a chimera that the human body could have come about by nature alone. That doesn’t mean I don’t accept evolution, I do, but that the processes were formulated and set in place by a Supreme Being of unimagined intelligence.

"I cannot accept therefore I know more than any
scientist on earth"

"Never mind how my 'Being' came to be"

 

[Audie]

That’s just your opinion and so I respect that. Then you go your way and I’ll go mine.

Just so you avoid even a moment's consideration that
he might have a point.

 

[Audie]

No, according to anyone that understands logical fallacies.

Oh now, ifn he learned the difference, he'd be
out of arguments. Be fair.

 

[ecco]

That doesn’t mean I don’t accept evolution, I do, but that the processes were formulated and set in place by a Supreme Being of unimagined intelligence.

So, the slow process of man evolving naturally over billions of years of time is too incredible for you to accept.

Yet you readily accept that a fully formed "Supreme Being of unimagined intelligence" has existed for all of eternity with no beginning.

I cannot accept that something as complex as a computer has a programmer and assembler yet the human body does not.

Yet you can readily accept that something as complex as a fully formed Supreme Being of unimagined intelligence does not need an assembler.

 

[ecco]

A number of people have claimed that animals can cause a wave to collapse into a particle by observation. Do you have proof on this? Seems it would be very simple for you to prove. Simply start up the electron gun and parade the animals through to see which ones trip an electron wave to collapse into a particle.

Is that how it works? Scientists shoot a beam of particles and a person looks at them and trips the collapse of a wave?

I was under the impression that "observations" could be made by devices...

Wave function collapse - Wikipedia
In quantum mechanics, wave function collapse is said to occur when a wave function—initially in a superposition of several eigenstates—appears to reduce to a single eigenstate due to interaction with the external world; this is called an "observation".
...
In quantum mechanics, "observation" is synonymous with quantum measurement and "observer" with a measurement apparatus and "observable" with what can be measured. Thus the quantum mechanical observer does not have to necessarily present or solve any problems over and above the issue of measurement in quantum mechanics. The quantum mechanical observer is also intimately tied to the issue of observer effect.

------------------------------------------------------


A number of new-age religious or philosophical interpretations of quantum mechanics, notably "consciousness causes collapse", give the observer a special role, or place constraints on who or what can be an observer. There is no credible peer-reviewed research that backs such claims.

​

 

[Audie]

So, the slow process of man evolving naturally over billions of years of time is too incredible for you to accept.

Yet you readily accept that a fully formed "Supreme Being of unimagined intelligence" has existed for all of eternity with no beginning.




Yet you can readily accept that something as complex as a fully formed Supreme Being of unimagined intelligence does not need an assembler.

Hey, what is easier to imagine than a "Being" that is
immeasurably greater than the universe, AND
cares about foreskin?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Hey, what is easier to imagine than a "Being" that is
immeasurably greater than the universe, AND
cares about foreskin?

Don't knock foreskins. They can be quite valuable. For example the going rate for a princess is two hundred foreskins.

"David took his men with him and went out and killed two hundred Philistines and brought back their foreskins. They counted out the full number to the king so that David might become the king's son-in-law. Then Saul gave him his daughter Michal in marriage."

 

[Audie]

Don't knock foreskins. They can be quite valuable. For example the going rate for a princess is two hundred foreskins.

"David took his men with him and went out and killed two hundred Philistines and brought back their foreskins. They counted out the full number to the king so that David might become the king's son-in-law. Then Saul gave him his daughter Michal in marriage."

some may wonder why I do not care to
culturally appropriate that religion.

 

[Subduction Zone]

some may wonder why I do not care to
culturally appropriate that religion.

Just think of them as BC bitcoin.

EDIT: LOL, I did not see the BC BitCoin connection until after I hit post.