Children don't go to hell, don't worry.
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Proving Hell and philosophy of it.
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Children don't go to hell, don't worry.
osgart
Nothing my eye, Something for sure
Advanced Bible Search
Hell is mentioned 54 times in the Bible.
There is even talk of the second death.
And what of the lake of fire, and everlasting torment of Satan. Day and Night, forever and ever. Revelation 20:10. Kjb
That is certainly not a standard definition in English, I'm not even sure what it means.
What miracles?
This is just a claim. How do you know it's true?.
What's wrong with doubt? Doubt is healthy.
By guide, do you mean God?
Who is Iblis, and how do you know he/she/it exists?
False dichotomy. Not believing in God doesnt meant I don't care about truth. Caring about truth is why I don't believe in God.
You're not proving, you're just declaring.
Chris Lovel
searcher
You are so right, if you care to look, which most people don't, there are over 400 conflicting passages in the Bible. What I can never understand is why people believe what was written by ignorant people thousands of years ago. They knew little about the natural world or the world in general yet people hang on their every word. We know more about the nature of the divine now than they ever did. They believed in Magic which is why they believed the stories about so called miracle, they believed it so they wrote it down, not understanding, now Bible readers believe it based on nothing but stories by superstitious scribes. Talking of which none of the accounts in the Bible were recorded at the time they happened. Which means the information is second hand or here-say, not very reliable. Anyway, if they are happy in their misguided beliefs why not if it gives them comfort.
osgart
Nothing my eye, Something for sure
Anyone can reason for themselves what is virtue and what is vice. They can see the natural results of these causes and effects for themselves. If they so wish to do that work.
The existence of virtues and vices is not at all any indication of anything further beyond that. Whether it be God, Heaven, Hell.
Existence is a vast, void of utter darkness that is not at all hospitable to life. There is nothing supreme or ideal about the conditions of nature. We have to eat other creatures to survive.
Where exists Divine laws in nature? Not to mention that we all start life with no knowledge whatsoever.
Religion asserts that we are all in need of Mercy. And many religious followers want to execute judgment instead.
These books are endless declarations and claims. They jump to the conclusion that mankind has no intrinsic ability to be genuine and worthy.
These books set no example of how to live life.
These books are of ancient, human minds.
These books are quick to draw enemies with those who do not subscribe.
Peace with a sword! These books do not allow for people to see things for themselves.
I would rather see things for myself then to piece together everything with only religious goggles.
Where is the connection from book to reality? That requires proof, and evidence.
If a person wishes to do the work they can see right from wrong themselves without any religious support.
There is no fruit without putting the work in to attain to something. Religion suggests a ready made solution that totally denies one their own spiritual discernment.
Broad, general conclusions about everything under the sun. No investigation needed, just so called answers so you don't have to go and find out for yourself what the reality is.
That to me is wasteful bloodshed.
The existence of virtues and vices is not at all any indication of anything further beyond that. Whether it be God, Heaven, Hell.
Existence is a vast, void of utter darkness that is not at all hospitable to life. There is nothing supreme or ideal about the conditions of nature. We have to eat other creatures to survive.
Where exists Divine laws in nature? Not to mention that we all start life with no knowledge whatsoever.
Religion asserts that we are all in need of Mercy. And many religious followers want to execute judgment instead.
These books are endless declarations and claims. They jump to the conclusion that mankind has no intrinsic ability to be genuine and worthy.
These books set no example of how to live life.
These books are of ancient, human minds.
These books are quick to draw enemies with those who do not subscribe.
Peace with a sword! These books do not allow for people to see things for themselves.
I would rather see things for myself then to piece together everything with only religious goggles.
Where is the connection from book to reality? That requires proof, and evidence.
If a person wishes to do the work they can see right from wrong themselves without any religious support.
There is no fruit without putting the work in to attain to something. Religion suggests a ready made solution that totally denies one their own spiritual discernment.
Broad, general conclusions about everything under the sun. No investigation needed, just so called answers so you don't have to go and find out for yourself what the reality is.
That to me is wasteful bloodshed.
I’m with those who say there is no infinite punishment for finite crimes.
ETA and reject hell on this basis.
ETA and reject hell on this basis.
A very, very, very, very bad Groundhog day - I could get used to that. We do mostly accustom ourselves to such after all. One of our failings.
Do you know how many words are translated "hell" in many Bibles? None of them mean a place of eternal torture in a fire.
“Hellfire” has been a basic teaching in Christendom for many centuries. It is understandable why The Encyclopedia Americana (1956, Vol. XIV, p. 81) said: “Much confusion and misunderstanding has been caused through the early translators of the Bible persistently rendering the Hebrew Sheol and the Greek Hades and Gehenna by the word hell."
"Sheol" in Hebrew is the same as "hades" in Greek....neither means a place of fiery torment.
"Webster’s Third New International Dictionary, unabridged, under “Hell” says: “fr[om] . . . helan to conceal.” The word “hell” thus originally conveyed no thought of heat or torment but simply of a ‘covered over or concealed place.’ In the old English dialect the expression “helling potatoes” meant, not to roast them, but simply to place the potatoes in the ground or in a cellar."
So hell is a burial place...the common grave of all mankind. We all go there. (Ecclesiastes 9:5; 10)
The lake of fire is the second death. If you think about it for a moment, what is the first death and why is this called the second?
The first death is the one we inherited from Adam (Romans 5:12) But this death is not permanent. Jesus promises to resurrect those who experience this death. (John 5:28-29) But the second death is different. This is a death from which no one returns. It is not a literal place but a symbolic one because death and hades are thrown into this "lake" as are satan and his demons. (Revelation 20:14)
Matthew 25:31-33...
"When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left."
The sheep at his right hand inherit everlasting life, but the goats....
"Then he will say to those on his left: ‘Go away from me, you who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels." What everlasting fire is this? It is the lake of fire....eternal death; just as fire destroys whatever it touches, so this symbolic fire destroys whatever thrown into it.
The incorrigibly wicked are the goats who go there....
“As for the cowards and those without faith and those who are disgusting in their filth and murderers and fornicators and those practicing spiritism and idolaters and all the liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur. This means the second death.” (Revelation 21:8)
This 'torment' is not what it appears to be on the surface. There cannot be literal torment because there is no consciousness after death.
"His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish." (Psalm 146:4 NASB)
When Jesus raised his friend Lazarus, he didn't say he'd gone to heaven....he said he was "sleeping". (John 11:11-14) Death is like sleeping. So if it was literal torment the person would have to be conscious.
In order to punish the wicked, God would have to grant them everlasting life....but it is only the righteous who are granted that.
This is how I see things....
Galateasdream
Active Member
If we're also using this thread to state our own views on hell:
I'm an eschatological universalist. I believe every being, whether human, animal, devil, AI or ET, will ultimately spend forever in bliss.
There may be judgement of some kind, I'm agnostic on that but largely draw on the Orthodox inspired deas that 'hell' is a state rather than a place, like the guilty conscience before God and the one's they hurt and so don't really see the need for any extra punishment.
I view any idea of ECT or annhilationism as immoral and therefore unworthy of an omnibenevolent God.
Regarding the biblical witness, I don't think there's a consistent picture at all about hell or the afterlife or judgement. It seems differing authors had differing views, so it doesn't suprise me that hellism, annhilationism, and universalism can all be found within. Harmonisation is impossible.
The early church accepted universal reconciliation (some scholars, like Ramelli, argue it was the majority view, others a sizeable minority view) pretty much up to Augustine.
I'm an eschatological universalist. I believe every being, whether human, animal, devil, AI or ET, will ultimately spend forever in bliss.
There may be judgement of some kind, I'm agnostic on that but largely draw on the Orthodox inspired deas that 'hell' is a state rather than a place, like the guilty conscience before God and the one's they hurt and so don't really see the need for any extra punishment.
I view any idea of ECT or annhilationism as immoral and therefore unworthy of an omnibenevolent God.
Regarding the biblical witness, I don't think there's a consistent picture at all about hell or the afterlife or judgement. It seems differing authors had differing views, so it doesn't suprise me that hellism, annhilationism, and universalism can all be found within. Harmonisation is impossible.
The early church accepted universal reconciliation (some scholars, like Ramelli, argue it was the majority view, others a sizeable minority view) pretty much up to Augustine.
osgart
Nothing my eye, Something for sure
A finite punishment for a finite crime feels right to me. I don't know if the worst human is intending infinite murder or not. But I imagine after a few billion years of punishment they might fall to reconsider.
If an evildoer is totally none changeable then why keep them around past punishment. Eternal death would be appropriate for that.
That's how I would do it anyway.
Someone would have to prove to me that evil is an eternal choice and irreversible before I even think of any measures past finite ones.
According to me, hell is allegorical symbol for punishment of evil;
Maximus
the Confessor
The notion of perpetual torment in Hell is a repulsive notion inconsistent with a loving God. It is a distortion of scripture. In my opinion.
The book 'That all should be saved' by David Bentley Hart is s must read for anyone who thinks that the God of Love would create an eternal torment for the transgression of finite creatures.
Let's say, for argument sake, that when people die, there is a spiritual part of the person - a soul - that survives. That soul no longer has a physical body, and without a physical body, it doesn't have physical feelings. No hunger, no fatigue, no cold, no heat... Nothing physical can affect a spiritual being.
If that's the case, what would be the point of sending the "bad" soul to a place of eternal damnation by fire, when they can't feel the heat and can't get burned? You can torture the poor soul with eternal boredom by looking at flames all day, but that's it. No physical body, no physical punishment.
That's one of many reasons why the eternal punishment in a hell of fire doesn't make any sense to me.
There are other threads about proving God, this is not the topic. We are instead doing given God exists, can we prove hell.
I proposed there is an evil that stems from such a place of God's wrath that is absolutely opposite to goodness as defined metaphysically with being drawn to God. I believe the heart of that, is that it results in the opposite of God's pleasure, which is his wrath.
The question is, is evil just a trivial thing? Or is such that it deserves God's perpetual wrath. I will be getting more into this discussion with different topics.
One topic, is oppression. God's hand is such that it he uses those who guide by the truth to remove oppression. If the best people are opposed and envied, and the evil people see them as evil, the question is why? Why such confusion?
I propose again, the oppression that misguiding leaders are followed with respect to, is only possible when people incline to evil and reject the truthful guides. This is why aside from the envy issue, apathy is also stemming from the tree of hell, and siding with the evil oppressors, is not trivial.
That and the hate is directed towards faith in God and his chosen ones, which the root stems from a tree of hell opposite to goodness. This evil, being opposite to goodness, get's the opposite reaction from God than it does when people incline to the good and pure tree.
Evil being from the opposite of goodness deserves perpetual wrath.
I proposed there is an evil that stems from such a place of God's wrath that is absolutely opposite to goodness as defined metaphysically with being drawn to God. I believe the heart of that, is that it results in the opposite of God's pleasure, which is his wrath.
The question is, is evil just a trivial thing? Or is such that it deserves God's perpetual wrath. I will be getting more into this discussion with different topics.
One topic, is oppression. God's hand is such that it he uses those who guide by the truth to remove oppression. If the best people are opposed and envied, and the evil people see them as evil, the question is why? Why such confusion?
I propose again, the oppression that misguiding leaders are followed with respect to, is only possible when people incline to evil and reject the truthful guides. This is why aside from the envy issue, apathy is also stemming from the tree of hell, and siding with the evil oppressors, is not trivial.
That and the hate is directed towards faith in God and his chosen ones, which the root stems from a tree of hell opposite to goodness. This evil, being opposite to goodness, get's the opposite reaction from God than it does when people incline to the good and pure tree.
Evil being from the opposite of goodness deserves perpetual wrath.
Another proof, is if the further we praise, magnify, and glorify goodness in humans, the further we see it's opposite, the evil, as deserving God's wrath. What is meant by evil is of course, not trivial sins here and there, or slips out of weakness or heedless moves out of desires, but a perpetual state where one is with the oppressors, and falsehood or fails to recognize goodness and it's proper path for life out of envy and hate towards the truth and God's chosen and his light.
This is what is meant by opposite. Again, this thread is not about proving God or his Messengers, it's about given they exist, can we prove hell is rational to believe.
This is what is meant by opposite. Again, this thread is not about proving God or his Messengers, it's about given they exist, can we prove hell is rational to believe.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
you end up alongside others like yourself
if there is no One in charge to keep the peace
that would be hell
Another concept is, what happens, to the weak, who just followed people who lead them astray. The Quran says, why, did you incline to them and not give God's guidance a chance to guide you. Therefore apathy and carelessness in the battle between truth and falsehood, and good and evil, though may not necessarily be stemming from evil envy, is also a type of evil opposite to caring about the truth and supporting it's truthful chosen guides.
Again, we aren't discussing whether tree of light or tree of evil exists, we are saying given they exist, what should be the punishment for those who oppose the blessed tree and side with the misguidance.
Although apathy is lost less evil then envy, it stems from the evil tree and an opposite place to caring and resolve, as such it also in the camp where God's perpetual wrath occurs.
Part of the harms that occur when we are apathetic, is the worse lead people and confuse others about right and wrong, and also create conjecture and lies as they spread havoc and oppression in the land.
There are real harms that occur in the world, but these are just small manifestations, of the evil in their hearts. The real evil is what is in God's sight, he knows what the tree of hell is really, and knows the various degrees of evil, and no knows fully but God any servant and their complete state, but we can rationalize, it's the opposite of caring and hence, deserves perpetual wrath as well.
What should be the punishment of those who take paths other then a path leading to God? This will be the next topic.
Again, we aren't discussing whether tree of light or tree of evil exists, we are saying given they exist, what should be the punishment for those who oppose the blessed tree and side with the misguidance.
Although apathy is lost less evil then envy, it stems from the evil tree and an opposite place to caring and resolve, as such it also in the camp where God's perpetual wrath occurs.
Part of the harms that occur when we are apathetic, is the worse lead people and confuse others about right and wrong, and also create conjecture and lies as they spread havoc and oppression in the land.
There are real harms that occur in the world, but these are just small manifestations, of the evil in their hearts. The real evil is what is in God's sight, he knows what the tree of hell is really, and knows the various degrees of evil, and no knows fully but God any servant and their complete state, but we can rationalize, it's the opposite of caring and hence, deserves perpetual wrath as well.
What should be the punishment of those who take paths other then a path leading to God? This will be the next topic.