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Proving Hell and philosophy of it.
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There are other faiths that believe in Messengers, almost all people do, whether they called them Avatars or Shamans or Buddhas, or whatever, the question is, given there is a good and evil metaphysically beyond just our physical brains and concepts and emotions, what should be the result of choosing evil side as opposed to the good side.
The topic is not about whether God exists or Messengers or Angels exist, all that, can have it's own proofs. But when you read Quran, for example, if it gives a proof for the day of judgment, it's saying given God exists, this a proof for the day of judgment. If it gives a proof for Messengers, it's saying given God exists, this a proof for Messengers. And there is of course proofs for God and his existence and Oneness, so you have to put everything in it's place.
This is saying, given we accept the spiritual unseen world and nature of good and evil, and God and Angels and Messengers, can we prove hell is a rational thing to believe in?
When it comes to a path to God, it's about direction. No one can fully see God yet no one is free from God so to not see him at all. When directed towards God, we in a way, are partially eternal, because our light stems from eternal light being mixed with that of time. That is why following an beautiful and good example is possible. That is why Messenger's light is a trust in the heart of a believer.
The opposite, is of course, a form of rebellion. Given the eternal nature of the light mixed with time, the rebellion itself, when running away from God and towards darkness and from truth towards falsehood, and from proofs of God and insights from him towards conjecture about him and about the unseen, this deception to oneself takes a form of rebellion towards eternal, and in a way, as if a rebellion forever unless one redeems themselves and repents to God of course before it's too late.
We can draw are own philosophies of all paths leading to God, but, the if God is a reality, then we must ascend by truth and not by conjecture and falsehood. Jesus for example, was during his time, the only path to God for children of Israel and whoever heard his message, and for those who don't hear his message, he was the light from God and spirit from God that is with them in their journey, and if they come to him, must believe in his physical body name as they must believe in his light and him being a beautiful name of God and word of light brought to life.
This rebellion where people turn away from the path of God, is a perpetual rebellion in a direction that increases one's hatred to the truth and tree of light.
There is of course, the exception, that a person tries somewhat hard enough to find the truth, but finds no means to God to disbelieve in or have faith in. These may be forgiven and God is forgiving. The may is of course given they aren't murderers, etc, or other super crimes, they will be forgiven.
Given that Islam is presented in a very bad form today and given Quran translations and interpretations really suck and given the sorcery is severe on the hearts, it maybe, most of the world is in this category today. They are forgiven for their falsehood and judged in a different way.
But I don't know, perhaps, the way to truth is clear enough still today. I don't know. Perhaps God deems this generation intelligent and given enough insight not to rely on translations and interpretations of the masses. Given much of Quran is about this, it maybe, that truth still stands clear from falsehood in this regard.
The opposite, is of course, a form of rebellion. Given the eternal nature of the light mixed with time, the rebellion itself, when running away from God and towards darkness and from truth towards falsehood, and from proofs of God and insights from him towards conjecture about him and about the unseen, this deception to oneself takes a form of rebellion towards eternal, and in a way, as if a rebellion forever unless one redeems themselves and repents to God of course before it's too late.
We can draw are own philosophies of all paths leading to God, but, the if God is a reality, then we must ascend by truth and not by conjecture and falsehood. Jesus for example, was during his time, the only path to God for children of Israel and whoever heard his message, and for those who don't hear his message, he was the light from God and spirit from God that is with them in their journey, and if they come to him, must believe in his physical body name as they must believe in his light and him being a beautiful name of God and word of light brought to life.
This rebellion where people turn away from the path of God, is a perpetual rebellion in a direction that increases one's hatred to the truth and tree of light.
There is of course, the exception, that a person tries somewhat hard enough to find the truth, but finds no means to God to disbelieve in or have faith in. These may be forgiven and God is forgiving. The may is of course given they aren't murderers, etc, or other super crimes, they will be forgiven.
Given that Islam is presented in a very bad form today and given Quran translations and interpretations really suck and given the sorcery is severe on the hearts, it maybe, most of the world is in this category today. They are forgiven for their falsehood and judged in a different way.
But I don't know, perhaps, the way to truth is clear enough still today. I don't know. Perhaps God deems this generation intelligent and given enough insight not to rely on translations and interpretations of the masses. Given much of Quran is about this, it maybe, that truth still stands clear from falsehood in this regard.
The text topic, is Vengeance for the oppressed against Oppressors beautiful from God or not. I say, it's beautiful given some conditions. Given that God tries by his compassion, to save oppressors and their supporters and those watch by apathetically, who all three are partners in crime.
This will be from that it's beautiful to take vengeance in this regard given conditions that he reached out to them with compassion, but they just hardened their hearts. For this, we will look at a case study in Quran particularly the Pharaoh.
Of course, believers want to help oppressors, but if oppressors continue their path of rebellion and oppression, they and their supporters, and the apathetic don't do anything and just watch, I believe and will show why rationally next it's irrational to believe vengeance is ugly when vengeance and retribution does have a place and beauty.
Abraham went into extreme and almost turned away from God when he went to extreme to save Lot's people, but it was also beautiful that he had compassion for them. But compassion in extreme that makes you lose a sense of justice is ugly, and God prevented Abraham from that.
Lot's compassion for his people was to the extent that he was willing to offer his daughters to them, as a last resort to save them. This is beautiful compassion for evil, but at the end, he also despite his grief, prayed that his people get destroyed before hand and that God comes with the punishment he promised eventually.
The same with Noah, he wanted his people rescued from hell and the disaster coming to them, but he also the end, realized, they were a people deserving to perish. This balance, such that God's compassion doesn't override his justice and retribution, and both are beautiful in their own place, and only when his compassion precedes his wrath, will be discussed in detail, as this is the heart of philosophy of hell.
This will be from that it's beautiful to take vengeance in this regard given conditions that he reached out to them with compassion, but they just hardened their hearts. For this, we will look at a case study in Quran particularly the Pharaoh.
Of course, believers want to help oppressors, but if oppressors continue their path of rebellion and oppression, they and their supporters, and the apathetic don't do anything and just watch, I believe and will show why rationally next it's irrational to believe vengeance is ugly when vengeance and retribution does have a place and beauty.
Abraham went into extreme and almost turned away from God when he went to extreme to save Lot's people, but it was also beautiful that he had compassion for them. But compassion in extreme that makes you lose a sense of justice is ugly, and God prevented Abraham from that.
Lot's compassion for his people was to the extent that he was willing to offer his daughters to them, as a last resort to save them. This is beautiful compassion for evil, but at the end, he also despite his grief, prayed that his people get destroyed before hand and that God comes with the punishment he promised eventually.
The same with Noah, he wanted his people rescued from hell and the disaster coming to them, but he also the end, realized, they were a people deserving to perish. This balance, such that God's compassion doesn't override his justice and retribution, and both are beautiful in their own place, and only when his compassion precedes his wrath, will be discussed in detail, as this is the heart of philosophy of hell.
As I've explained in a few different threads here, we don't choose our beliefs:
Do We Choose Our Beliefs?
You are advocating a system that punishes people (eternally, no less) for thought crimes. Most societies gave that up centuries ago because we realized how cruel, unjust, and antithetical to freedom it is. What's taking your god so long to catch up?
Believing in liars is a choice. I won't forgive people who take side of liars and oppressors over truthful people. You thinking there is no way to know truth or choose to believe it, is because you believe there is no proofs or insights that prove it clearly. I believe the truth can be proven clearly and hence, when people, reject it or don't care to know the truth, and side with the oppressors, they are responsible over the oppression.
Lost lives and oppression is not something God takes lightly and there will be a day of vengeance like no other.
No, it isn't. The reason people believe in liars is because they genuinely don't think they're liars.
I think there is a way to know the truth. I don't think believing it, once you discover it, is a choice. Once you're convinced something is true, you already believe it, by definition. You can't just decide not to. Similarly, if you're genuinely not convinced something is true, you can't just decide to be convinced.
More claims, no evidence except that your "messengers" told you that's what your god says.
It comes to being truthful and truth seeking. If we are truthful to ourselves, we won't deceives ourselves to be good when we are evil. And if we are truth seeking, we won't form beliefs on conjecture and we will defeat our biases.
If we follow our desires, then desires choose conjecture over truth. If we incline to the truth and don't let our desires dictate reality, and guard it from mixing falsehood with truth and seek guidance from God, we will be guided and God proves everything he wants us to believe, and his commands are not something we can't know is good nor what he forbids something we can't know is evil. He proves and gives insight to what he commands and forbids.
If we choose to follow what we have no knowledge of, and truth and falsehood are equally believed in, we are the source of confusion. Being truthful to ourselves and not deceiving ourselves, and holding on to truth and not conjecture, is all a choice.
You are right when people follow their caprice, there is little control over what they believe, because it's chaotic and unstructured.
Galateasdream
Active Member
I always wonder about those who accept hellism, whether they are happy with thinking that's the truth?
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Often, I think yes. I think it is usually people, who consider themselves following the right path to God, and everyone else are misguided and will go to hell.
Hell is always for others!
I use to hate the concept, but now, how I saw people happy about heroes deaths and how people side with oppressors, it's changed my view, and I am more incline to vengeance of God in this regard then forgiveness.
Love of good people makes you hate their enemies. I don't believe heroes and villains should be loved equally and both rewarded with perpetual peace. Nor that villains and their supporters and those who are apathetic to their ways, to be left off the hook. There are consequences and I hold humans responsible for our state. Some more then others, and I hold myself responsible to, if I live and do nothing, I will never forgive myself and wish God to torture me forever.
Galateasdream
Active Member
I think this reveals quite a bit about what has motivated your change of heart regarding hel, tbh.
If you don't mind me asking, which heroes are you referring to, and who were the people expressing joy at their deaths?
The Torah is all about the exalted ones and envy in this respect. This is an ancient battle between lovers of God's exalted words brought to life and their enemies who envy them. We are character assassinated and seen as backwards and stupid, but this is all blindness, much like the killer of Abel, he hates the fact that God accepts Abel actions and Cain hate could not be tempered, nor is many crimes done in this world to be seen different then this.
The battle between the cursed tree - Gog and Magog and those who are deceived by these deceivers, and between God's elite and their followers - the blessed tree and it's leaves, continues, and there is hardly room for neutrality from my view.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Let me take a guess, what @Link is thinking.
Maybe killing Ghasim Soleimani, who Amercans killed, and many people became happy.
That is profoundly wishful thinking. And frankly, it's what most people think about their own beliefs, including the people who think you're totally wrong about hell.
How do you figure? What if my desire is for truth?
God has never been demonstrated to "do" anything. And again, this is what loads of theists think who disagree with you about hell. Including ones who think you're going to hell because you're a Muslim.
There's little control regardless. Can you just choose, right now, not to believe in Islam?
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Conceptually yes. But I believe, we need to remember the Book of God, has two type of verses. Literal, and symbolic (Mutishabihat, see Quran 3:7).
Why do you think, those verses regarding Day of Judgement, going to hell are literal? Could they be Mutishabihat?
The point is hell has to be seen in light that we do choose our beliefs and truth is distinguishable from falsehood. You are discussing a different topic. I will make a thread about how choice is related to our beliefs but this is going off-topic. It's as if we were arguing whether God exists or not.
I'm talking about hell given context of these others facts. If we don't choose our beliefs, then hell doesn't make sense to me, because we can't be condemned for siding with oppressors or the evil tree.
However, the topic is about hell given faith in God is rational, Messengers are true, etc.
It's not that what you said is not a good discussion, is that it's straying away from the concept of hell to a different discussion with regards to free-will and beliefs. I will make a topic about this, and so it doesn't get all mixed, I hope to see you there.
Clarity and unclearness is relative. Are they unclear to me? No.
They are clear. They maybe unclear to you, but that's not my problem. I'm not discussing the textual basis for hell, I'm discussing the philosophy of it.
Maybe not right now, but sometimes I get sexual fantasies, and wish to join a left handed spirituality and am willing to even accuse the Mahdi and his miracles as to be sorcery if he comes. This has nothing to do with proofs of God or proofs for religion, I've been provided enough of that. It has to do with a choice, and in fact, I'm highly volatile, and am not firmly established. I left Islam for 5 years, and once you slip, you can slip again.
And believe me, sometimes, I get overwhelmed by compassion, that makes me want to deny hell all together. But like Abraham returning to reason when God tells him turn from this, I see God's Glory in both being compassion extremely to his friends yet extremely vengeful to his enemies.
I look forward to your demonstration that we choose our beliefs.