Proving Hell and philosophy of it.

[Link]

A) Why?

B) Who is making the claim that limited goodness deserves unlimited reward?

C) This assumes that God desires a retributive form of justice rather than a rehabilitative one, or that He has no concept of mercy. That seems quite an assumption given omnibenevolence.

B most people believe in this.
As for C, it's not the case, as God accepts repentance in my scenario. I'm talking about people dying in a evil state, and to understand God's wrath towards, you have to somewhat understand their evil nature. This is why I talked about the tree of hell and envy in this regard. To me God can never forgive a person dying in this state. It's just as I said, you have to see, that just as his appreciation is perpetual and forever, so then is his wrath, and punishment is a result of his wrath.

As for B, I will be writing a proof for why we should believe then God's reward and appreciation is forever.

 

[Link]

Also for C, You are assuming God will not be wrathful towards evil, but just reformative. I'm arguing wrath and vengeance and retribution have their place in God's greatness and beauty.

There is another argument which I will be making, which will be, about justice. That is justice as a concept is only true if it's an actuality. An actuality of it is realized through hell with respect to evil and wicked people.

 

[Galateasdream]

B most people believe in this.
As for C, it's not the case, as God accepts repentance in my scenario. I'm talking about people dying in a evil state, and to understand God's wrath towards, you have to somewhat understand their evil nature. This is why I talked about the tree of hell and envy in this regard. To me God can never forgive a person dying in this state. It's just as I said, you have to see, that just as his appreciation is perpetual and forever, so then is his wrath, and punishment is a result of his wrath.

As for B, I will be writing a proof for why we should believe then God's reward and appreciation is forever.

I don't think most believe B. Maybe most Muslims, but certainly not most Christians (where eternal life is an unearned and undeserved gift). I doubt this concept is true for Hindusim or Buddhism either, but I'm not sure.

The starting point for your philosophical proof must hinge on demonstrating, then, both that a) God unfairly rewards temporary, imperfect and limited goodness with eternal reward, and b) omnibenevolence necessitates a retributive only form of justice.

Can you show both a and b philosophically?

 

[danieldemol]

If goodness is to be appreciated and rewarded forever, then so it's true of the negative opposites, to be despised and punished forever for same reason with respect to God's essence and nature of morality.

Goodness is to be appreciated and rewarded forever not due to it being worthy of eternal reward, but due to God’s mercy granting it eternal reward.

Bad deeds are punished due to God’s justice, but it was never just to give infinite punishment for finite crimes.

In short, God is mercy tempered by justice to everyone, not all-Merciful to some eternally vengeful to others.

You seem to be wanting to attribute a multiple personality disorder to God.

I would argue that this is because you have ascribed your own petty desire for revenge to God, but God is just and wise, not petty and vengeful.

Kind regards

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

This thread, I will be doing this. Building a case for hell, but, I just wanted to introduce before the proofs and see people's thoughts first.

I can't participate because I find the notion of hell to be a ridiculous idea.

However, if you do build a case for it that you think proves the existence of hell, give me a heads-up. I'm sure I'll be fascinated.

 

[QuestioningMind]

If goodness is to be appreciated and rewarded forever, then so it's true of the negative opposites, to be despised and punished forever for same reason with respect to God's essence and nature of morality.

But why should a single finite act of goodness be rewarded forever? Why should a single finite act of goodness gain me rewards for all infinity, when afterwards I could conceivably perpetrate hundred of finite acts of evil? Furthermore, why should one finite act of evil earn me an infinity of punishment, when afterwards I could perpetrate a hundred finite acts of goodness?

The very concept of an infinite punishment for a finite transgression seems horribly immoral to me, and if that's 'God's essence and nature of morality' then it's a form of 'morality' that I don't want to have anything to do with.

 

[Bird123]

Children don't go to hell, don't worry.

WE are all God's children. If God's children do not go to Hell, why do you say it exists? There is no need for Hell to exist.

Hell is no more than an idea created by mankind.

 

[james bond]

My evidence for hell would Monday morning and having to be at work first thing. Next, having to drink the dreg beans of the coffee world. You take it with as lots of milk and lots of sugar. As my music teacher used to say, "Suffer!"

ETA: We got video evidence, too.

 

[Shad]

I see a lot what is called proof but no actual proof. Calling a pig a horse does not make it a horse.

 

[Link]

Our actions are linked to eternal light. Either in hate or love, rebellion or submission to the light. Envious tree - the root is a hell to me, that by it's nature, is not limited. That is, it's from rebellion to God's light which is known only in God's vision. In this sense, infinite hell and it doubling and doubling, is just manifesting this evil over time. There of course degrees of this evil, but each one of them infinite due to God's Eternal light and rebellion towards the abiding tree and exalted ones, and tree of life will not be forgiven.

Hell is metaphorical, but it's not that, the fires are less painful in this respect. It's that their reality is more intense and more painful.

I don't see God's Love ever coming to end for good acts nor his appreciation and I don't see an end to his wrath. I realize, even proving God to be compassionate, cannot be done through logical proofs without somehow appealing to his compassion.

The same is true of his wrath, we either see his displeasure for evil or we don't.

And so the Quran manifests God's emotion with respect to him wanting to save humans from his wrath, but also his wrath if we aren't saved.

 

[Link]

I look forward to your demonstration that we choose our beliefs.

Before I do that thread, I will do threads about the following topics:

1. Does Quran or Islam command to mutilation? (crimes like stealing, fornication)
2. What Does Quran really say about women?
3. The Edge case approach to a religion as opposed to going to the heart of it's philosophy. (I will be talking about a command bad way of approaching any religion).
4. God and Value.
Only after that:
5. The Thread I promised you, we have control over our beliefs.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

@Link , the idea that God cannot bring a Sign, or Miracle to convince all humanity contradicts with the belief that God is All-powerful. If God is All-Powerful, He is able to bring miracles to lower neck of everyone. So, to think that God gave miracles in past, but yet His miracles were not good enough to convince everyone is contradictory with the belief in an All powerful God. But, God never did miracles to convince everyone due to a Wisdom. And that wisdom is, to give an option to everyone to believe or disbelieve, to obey His laws, or to disobey His laws, so that He can separate the true and pure believers, from the sinners and impure hearts. So, is hell and heaven ordained. But if He just sends a miracles to force everyone to believe and obey, there remains no choice to make for humanity.

 

[Link]

@Link , the idea that God cannot bring a Sign, or Miracle to convince all humanity contradicts with the belief that God is All-powerful. If God is All-Powerful, He is able to bring miracles to lower neck of everyone. So, to think that God gave miracles in past, but yet His miracles were not good enough to convince everyone is contradictory with the belief in an All powerful God. But, God never did miracles to convince everyone due to a Wisdom. And that wisdom is, to give an option to everyone to believe or disbelieve, to obey His laws, or to disobey His laws, so that He can separate the true and pure believers, from the sinners and impure hearts. So, is hell and heaven ordained. But if He just sends a miracles to force everyone to believe and obey, there remains no choice to make for humanity.

What you said is true, but the Sign that no one can deny, is only manifest on the last day of judgment, when Prophets and the Witnesses - will be manifested to a degree, it will be said "and who is the sorcerer/enchanter?". They will know then, The power is from God.

God has decided to not manifest it to this degree, yet miracles of a high degree of proof, were manifested and the Messengers were accused of sorcery.

The other thing that occurs, is people do believe, once the punishment comes. They realize it's too late and they are humbled enough forcefully - that they acknowledge they were oppressors.

 

[Link]

WE are all God's children. If God's children do not go to Hell, why do you say it exists? There is no need for Hell to exist.

Hell is no more than an idea created by mankind.

I'm not a child and children don't go to hell. No worries.

 

[Bird123]

I'm not a child and children don't go to hell. No worries.

You are a child of God whether you think you are or not.

That's what I see. It's very very clear!!

 

[InvestigateTruth]

What you said is true, but the Sign that no one can deny, is only manifest on the last day of judgment, when Prophets and the Witnesses - will be manifested to a degree, it will be said "and who is the sorcerer/enchanter?". They will know then, The power is from God...

Well, even on the Judgement Day, they will still be Heedless:

"Warn them of the day of sighing, when the decree shall be accomplished, while they are sunk In heedlessness, and while they believe not." (Maryam-19:39)

The verse says, even after the Judgement of God is accomplished, they are still sunk in heedlessness. Think about it. Even after all those events, earthquakes, sun and moon darkened, the dead is raised, and finally the judgement of God is accomplished, yet, they are still heedless. Does it seem to you logical?

Logically also does not make sense, God performs a big miracle on a Last Day, when everyone will go to hell or heaven. It is too late!


Also, look at this:

"Say: My Lord has enjoined justice, and set upright your faces at every time of prayer and call on Him, being sincere to Him in obedience; as He brought you forth in the beginning, so shall you also return. some hath he guided, and some hath he justly left in error, because they have taken the Satans as their tutelars beside God, and have deemed that they were guided aright." 7:29-30



The verse according to the Shia imams is revealed regarding the Judgement Day. It says, they will return just as the begining, some guided and some misguided. Thus, what is the point of doing any miracle on the judgement day.

 

[Link]

Jesus, you build too much on ambiguity.

 

[Link]

Both verses you loaded them with a bad interpretation and asked a question on that interpretation. The first one is telling them to warn them while they are heedless about that day of judgment. The second one you quoted is commenting, some he guided and some misguidance was due, because they took Devils as authorities rather then God and thought they were guided.

Jesus, my friend, take a step back. If you building on non-sense like this, you need to investigate everything you built your foundations on, because that was ridiculous way of interpreting Quran and frankly, I'm not going to quote all the verses about the day of judgment where people admit their sins and see the hell, etc, etc, and when their vision is like Iron. Either you need to read Quran again without bias or your being deceptive. Either way, it's up to you.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Peace and blessings,

I believe the belief in hell is a very rational belief to have and that a holy book that claims that is the result of x or y type people, it must justify why and manifest this beyond doubt.

There are different reasons as to why hell exists and why it's perpetual and never ends.

There are sufficient proofs (each in themselves) and then there the philosophy of all the proofs making a case together, that to me prove it beyond doubt.

Any holy book claiming to be from God but doesn't prove it's tenants, is deficient. As for hell, I believe the Quran has commented on it from many different angles, and different reasons, as to why, it exists.

This thread is to unlock reflections on these reasons as to gain it's insights in this respect as to the philosophy of why hell must exist and for certain exists.

The subject is repeated in Quran and is in fact connected with almost every topic of the Quran. That is it uses whatever discussion to then manifest an aspect or a sufficient proof to hell-fire and it's perpetual never ending reality.

It's assumed every mention of hell is just emotional bullying, but another way, is to look at is contextualizing it with subjects so as to prove it from different aspects.

Do you have something else beside "the quran says so"?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

To get started, I would like to start with some metaphysics.

Metaphysics is just a bunch of assertions that are not in evidence, are unfalsifiable, untestable, unverifiable.

Sounds like you are trying to "prove" seemingly unfalsifiable assertions ("hell exists") with even more unfalsifiable assertions.

Obviously, that's not how one proves things...