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Q&A about Judaism

MayPeaceBeUpOnYou

Active Member
Hi there

So I want to started this thread since I want to know more about Judaism and its teachings concerning zionism.
I am not here to debate but come to learn and interact with Jews in a respectful manner

To be clear this thread is specifically for the Jews that are theist, follow and have knowledge of scriptures of Judaism.
Obviously people that have a phd or education on the Jewish scriptures are welcome to join.

I have multiple questions regarding this topic but I will keep it to a single one.

Does the Zionism movement go against the beliefs of Jews and scriptures of Judaism?

Please give answer with sources or references of scriptures prior to
 

MayPeaceBeUpOnYou

Active Member
Thank you. In what way(s) do you see a largely secular movement for self determination as being in conflict with the Tanakh?
I dont say there is since I have read the Jewish scriptures. I opened this thread because I have heard that some jews believe that this goes against their faith.

So I am wondering if this based on scriptures or not?
Maybe you can share what kind of Jew you are. Reform, orthodox or conservative?
 

MayPeaceBeUpOnYou

Active Member
I am a member of a Reform synagogue.

As I'm sure you know, scripture is subject to wildly diverse interpretation. My views on the Israel-Palestine conflict are grounded in my ethics, not my theology.
Yeah and I respect that. But to be honest with you I was really interested to hear the perspective of Jews that follow their scriptures and commentary.
 

Elliott

Member
Hi there

So I want to started this thread since I want to know more about Judaism and its teachings concerning zionism.
I am not here to debate but come to learn and interact with Jews in a respectful manner

To be clear this thread is specifically for the Jews that are theist, follow and have knowledge of scriptures of Judaism.
Obviously people that have a phd or education on the Jewish scriptures are welcome to join.

I have multiple questions regarding this topic but I will keep it to a single one.

Does the Zionism movement go against the beliefs of Jews and scriptures of Judaism?

Please give answer with sources or references of scriptures prior to
I suppose i should begin by sharing that i follow Orthodox.

So far as i know, there is no explicit or implicit reference to Zionism in Torah. The only thing that i know of in Torah is that Jerusalem is called Tzion.

There is at least one problem with Zionist ideology which does contradict Torah. This idea that the land belongs to the Jews is a mistake. Jews are allowed to live in the land and are even encouraged to do so. But if we don't behave as we ought to then we will be banished as was the case at the time of the destruction of the first and second Temples. The land belongs to G-d, and Jews are more than welcome to live there so long as they follow the rules. (See Me'am Lo'ez, Bereishis, 15:11-21, page 98)
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
I opened this thread because I have heard that some jews believe that this goes against their faith.

There are 2 categories of Jewish people whom are religiously opposed to Zionism. There is an ultra-orthodox opinion which is looking at the Talmud, not the Hebrew scripture, which contains a somewhat vague prohibition regarding the manner in which the land of Israel can be populated. They interpret the manner which Israel was populated and is still being populated as a violation of this prohibition. The others are non-religious Jews who really don't know what they're talking about in regard to the current conflict, the reasons which produced it, and the Hebrew scriptures. The religion these Jewish people are practicing is politics. They're fighting against an imaginary "demon" called "conservatism".
 
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dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
There is at least one problem with Zionist ideology which does contradict Torah.

Have you forgotten that the land is an eternal inheritance? Eternal, Ad-Olam.

(See Me'am Lo'ez, Bereishis, 15:11-21, page 98)

I'll check it out, but.... the Torah and Tanach very clearly state repeatedly that the land is eternally a Jewish homeland. I'll post a few examples, but, there are so many that it would take several posts to list them all.

Gen 13:15

כי את־כל־הארץ אשר־אתה ראה לך אתננה ולזרעך עד־עולם׃
For all the land which you see, to you will I give it, and to your seed forever.

Gen 17:8

ונתתי לך ולזרעך אחריך את ארץ מגריך את כל־ארץ כנען לאחזת עולם והייתי להם לאלהים׃
And I will give to you, and to your seed after you, the land where you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

Ezekiel 37:25,26

וישבו על־הארץ אשר נתתי לעבדי ליעקב אשר ישבו־בה אבותיכם וישבו עליה המה ובניהם ובני בניהם עד־עולם ודוד עבדי נשיא להם לעולם׃
And they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob my servant, where your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell in it, they and their children, and their grandchildren for ever; and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

וכרתי להם ברית שלום ברית עולם יהיה אותם ונתתים והרביתי אותם ונתתי את־מקדשי בתוכם לעולם׃
And I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

This idea that the land belongs to the Jews is a mistake. Jews are allowed to live in the land and are even encouraged to do so. But if we don't behave as we ought to then we will be banished as was the case at the time of the destruction of the first and second Temples. The land belongs to G-d, and Jews are more than welcome to live there so long as they follow the rules.

It's written we will break the rules, we will be expelled, and then we will return to our eternal inheritance. It's not a matter of IF we follow the rules then... It was written. You will fail and break the covenant, but I the Lord will never break my promise to you. Our God is not a man. Our God does not break its promises. That's what's written.

Leviticus

26:43
והארץ תעזב מהם ותרץ את־שבתתיה בהשמה מהם והם ירצו את־עונם יען וביען במשפטי מאסו ואת־חקתי געלה נפשם׃
The land also shall be left by them, and shall enjoy her sabbaths, while she lies desolate without them; and they shall accept the punishment of their iniquity; because, because they despised my judgments, and because their soul loathed my statutes.


26:44
ואף גם־זאת בהיותם בארץ איביהם לא־מאסתים ולא־געלתים לכלתם להפר בריתי אתם כי אני יהוה אלהיהם׃
And yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, nor will I loathe them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them; for I am the Lord their God.


26:45
וזכרתי להם ברית ראשנים אשר הוצאתי־אתם מארץ מצרים לעיני הגוים להיות להם לאלהים אני יהוה׃
But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God; I am the Lord.
 

MayPeaceBeUpOnYou

Active Member
I suppose i should begin by sharing that i follow Orthodox.

So far as i know, there is no explicit or implicit reference to Zionism in Torah. The only thing that i know of in Torah is that Jerusalem is called Tzion.

There is at least one problem with Zionist ideology which does contradict Torah. This idea that the land belongs to the Jews is a mistake. Jews are allowed to live in the land and are even encouraged to do so. But if we don't behave as we ought to then we will be banished as was the case at the time of the destruction of the first and second Temples. The land belongs to G-d, and Jews are more tan welcome to live there so long as they follow the rules. (See Me'am Lo'ez, Bereishis, 15:11-21, page 98)
Thanks for the references. I found this site, is the translation accurate

 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
Thanks for the references. I found this site, is the translation accurate


He's referenced the Me'am Loez, its a rather unique commentary collection from the Ladino tradition. Sephardic. I'll go look it up and see if I can provide you with the commentary he's referred to. It's not online, it's published by Moznaim.

 

MayPeaceBeUpOnYou

Active Member
There are 2 categories of Jewish people whom are religiously opposed to Zionism. There is an ultra-orthodox opinion which is looking at the Talmud, not the Hebrew scripture, which contains a somewhat vague prohibition regarding the manner in which the land of Israel can be populated. They interpret the manner which Israel was populated and is still being populated as a violation of this prohibition. The others are non-religious Jews who really don't know what they're talking about in regard to the current conflict, the reasons which produced it, and the Hebrew scriptures. The religion these Jewish people are practicing is politics. They're fighting against an imaginary "demon" called "conservatism".
Thanks for your perspective.
Which denomination do you follow and do you read en follow Talmud?
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
@MayPeaceBeUpOnYou , is this legible? The forum software required that I reduce the image quality. Maybe you can zoom in? If not, let me know and I'll figure something out.

@Elliott is referring to the bottom of page 98, but as I mentioned in my previous post to him, it's written that the Jewish people will return. That's on page 99.

20240609_040414.jpg
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
Thanks for your perspective.
Which denomination do you follow and do you read en follow Talmud?

I am a member of a Chabad community in Portland Oregon, USA, but I was not born into a Chabad family. I was raised in a very liberal conservative home. Conservative is sort of like a "middle" ground between Reform and Orthodox. But like everything Jewish, it's not a middle like other middles. :)

Chabad is technically Chassidic and Ultra-orthodox. I have read parts of the Talmud. I do not follow it. It gets a seat at the table. The Torah is my guide.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Does the Zionism movement go against the beliefs of Jews and scriptures of Judaism?
Hi, I'm an Orthodox Jew, of a subset that is known in Israel as Dati Leumi (National Religious). I don't believe that Zionism is contradictory to Judaism, rather it is part and parcel of our beliefs. Is there anything more specific you would like to know?
 
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