Question about Determinism...

[Sunstone]

If all the matter and energy in the universe could be arranged in pattern or fashion x, and if you could do so repeatedly, then would the very next thing that happens after you have arranged the universe in pattern or fashion x always be the same thing that always happens? Or would there be differences between the various instances of your arranging the universe in pattern or fashion x?

More importantly, why?

 

[Skwim]

If all the matter and energy in the universe could be arranged in pattern or fashion x, and if you could do so repeatedly, then would the very next thing that happens after you have arranged the universe in pattern or fashion x always be the same thing that always happens? Or would there be differences between the various instances of your arranging the universe in pattern or fashion x?

More importantly, why?

So, you're talking about arranging all the matter and energy in the universe in some pattern, and then rearranging it in the same pattern, and then rearranging it in the same pattern, and then . . . . . . etc. until what, you possibly decide to arrange into some other pattern?

 

[Sunstone]

So, you're talking about arranging all the matter and energy in the universe in some pattern, and then rearranging it in the same pattern, and then rearranging it in the same pattern, and then . . . . . . etc. until what, you possibly decide to arrange into some other pattern?

No, no, no, no....Think of this as a thought experiment. You arrange the universe in a certain pattern. Then you observe the very next thing that happens in the universe. Then you repeat the initial arrangement, and you again observe the very next thing that happens. The idea is to see if the same thing always happens. Or rather, happens as always as you do the experiment.

 

[Sunstone]

The implication, of course, is that if the outcome is always the same, then there is no true randomness, and all events in the universe are determined.

I myself don't suppose that would be so, because I've been told there is true randomness at the quantum level. But is that true?

 

[Laika]

Not 100% sure, but I think this is what you might be getting at. Food for thought I hope:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laplace's_demon

In the history of science, Laplace's demon was the first published articulation of causal or scientific determinism by Pierre-Simon Laplace in 1814.[1] According to determinism, if someone (the Demon) knows the precise location and momentum of every atom in the universe, their past and future values for any given time are entailed; they can be calculated from the laws of classical mechanics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clockwork_universe
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clockwork_universe

 

[Sunstone]

Not 100% sure, but I think this is what you might be getting at. Food for thought I hope:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laplace's_demon

In the history of science, Laplace's demon was the first published articulation of causal or scientific determinism by Pierre-Simon Laplace in 1814.[1] According to determinism, if someone (the Demon) knows the precise location and momentum of every atom in the universe, their past and future values for any given time are entailed; they can be calculated from the laws of classical mechanics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clockwork_universe

Obviously, Laplace plagiarized me 200 years before I came up with the same idea. The clever *******!

EDIT: Of course, there are some subtle, and not so subtle, differences between Laplace's Demon and what I have in mind. But they seem close enough for many purposes.

 

[picnic]

(1) time would be different between the two experiments
(2) you need to store the result from the first experiment for comparison to the second, so the state of the universe isn't quite the same

 

[Banjankri]

If all the matter and energy in the universe could be arranged in pattern or fashion x, and if you could do so repeatedly, then would the very next thing that happens after you have arranged the universe in pattern or fashion x always be the same thing that always happens? Or would there be differences between the various instances of your arranging the universe in pattern or fashion x?

Since we don't know all the forces in the universe, answering your questions is pointless. If we assume that we know them all, then the answer will be yes, all would be the same, because that was our opening assumption.

 

[picnic]

Another thing about this experiment is that it imagines something like a clock with gears stopped and then clicking forward with each tick of time.

In other words, when do we measure the next state after the initial state? Is it one second later or one hour later or one picosecond later?

If we make the time tick smaller and smaller until we reach zero, then there ought to be some sort of velocity-like measurements available in the initial state that would contain the entire future of the universe (assuming the model is valid)?

 

[Sunstone]

Another thing about this experiment is that it imagines something like a clock with gears stopped and then clicking forward with each tick of time.

In other words, when do we measure the next state after the initial state? Is it one second later or one hour later or one picosecond later?

If we make the time tick smaller and smaller until we reach zero, then there ought to be some sort of velocity-like measurements available in the initial state that would contain the entire future of the universe (assuming the model is valid)?

That's why my experiment is better than Laplace's.

 

[sandandfoam]

If all the matter and energy in the universe could be arranged in pattern or fashion x, and if you could do so repeatedly, then would the very next thing that happens after you have arranged the universe in pattern or fashion x always be the same thing that always happens? Or would there be differences between the various instances of your arranging the universe in pattern or fashion x?

More importantly, why?

HI Sunstone!

2 thoughts:
1. To be all modern about it: All that complicated quantum stuff suggests no.
2. TO be all post-modern about it: Perhaps more importantly, I can only speak for myself of course, but experience suggests the feeling that "this time it's going to be different" is pretty strongly ingrained in my mind.

 

[Sunstone]

HI Sunstone!

2 thoughts:
1. To be all modern about it: All that complicated quantum stuff suggests no.
2. TO be all post-modern about it: Perhaps more importantly, I can only speak for myself of course, but experience suggests the feeling that "this time it's going to be different" is pretty strongly ingrained in my mind.

Hi Stephen!

I'm not sure I understand which question you were answering with a no?

 

[sandandfoam]

Hi Stephen!

I'm not sure I understand which question you were answering with a no?

This fella
"would the very next thing that happens after you have arranged the universe in pattern or fashion x always be the same thing that always happens?"

 

[Sunstone]

This fella
"would the very next thing that happens after you have arranged the universe in pattern or fashion x always be the same thing that always happens?"

Yeah, I agree with you. Thanks for the clarification!

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Note:

The uncertainty principle holds that it is not possible to define the
position and momentum of a particle at the same time. In his book,
Universe in a Nutshell", Steven Hawking claims that acceptance of the
validity of this fundamental law in quantum mechanics renders LaPlace’s
scientific determinism false. Heisenberg's uncertainty principle may,
however, be interpreted as proof of the validity of the Alice hypothesis
which posits that bosonic forms of existence, in which all movement
occurs, alternate with fermionic ones, where all matter resides in a
succession of incrementally different static forms.

If then, as the Nobel Laureate Eric Kandel claims (1), free will is
exercised uncosciously and, as posited in the Alice hypothesis, all
thought and executive decision making occurs within bosonic phases of
existence and fermionic complexities are dictated by antecedent bosonic
simplicities (2), what is free will? Might it be the products of an
individual unconscious, a collective unconscious, and/or a "Creator's"
unconscious? Might it, and even the power of prayer, be the product of
all three. [source]​

I haven't the slightest clue what Kandel is saying. Perhaps I could learn, but I suspect that the answer to the question of free will vs determinism is simply beyond me and that, despite this fact (or, perhaps because of it) I nevertheless have the moral obligation to act on the presumption that I am responsible for my actions.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If all the matter and energy in the universe could be arranged in pattern or fashion x, and if you could do so repeatedly, then would the very next thing that happens after you have arranged the universe in pattern or fashion x always be the same thing that always happens? Or would there be differences between the various instances of your arranging the universe in pattern or fashion x?

More importantly, why?

Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle implies that you can never measure a universe with perfect precision, so you could never create a specific state of the universe with perfect precision.

The error inherent in our measurements - which can't be avoided because it's intrinsic to the universe itself - would ensure that the two universes are different enough that they would proceed on two different paths to some degree.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

As for the "why": we have no way to measure a thing that doesn't involve imparting at least the energy of one photon to it. This energy changes what's being measured.

 

[picnic]

Another aspect is entropy.

If we imagine metaphysical variables behind quantum mechanics, then entropy is the size of the metaphysical memory required to store those variables. The experiment isn't done until all those metaphysical variables are realized into physical states. That would be zero entropy.

Of course the person performing the experiment must be metaphysical, and that person probably already knows the result of the experiment without bothering to perform it (e.g. that person might be a computer programmer who wrote the Sim-Universe game).

 

[Sunstone]

I haven't the slightest clue what Kandel is saying. Perhaps I could learn, but I suspect that the answer to the question of free will vs determinism is simply beyond me....

I suspect it's beyond me too.

...despite this fact (or, perhaps because of it) I nevertheless have the moral obligation to act on the presumption that I am responsible for my actions.

Now, that's an interesting question that might make for a good thread...

 

[ak.yonathan]

There is something called the singularity, where the laws of physics break down, we have no way of predicting what would come out from it.