Question about God and hell

[Aupmanyav]

I find it is just as Jesus said at Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8 that the 'good news about God's kingdom' (Daniel 2:44) would be declared on an international scale just as it is being done right now today.

People are leaving Christianity in droves. The posts in the forum are evidence of that.

 

[Deeje]

This is describing the condition of the dead in the place where they are going. (sheol)

Yes...it describes the condition of the whole person, not just their body. For your consciousness to continue after death, you would need to retain your personality.....how can you retain being you if you are devoid of the things that made you who you were?
Can I ask you where you were before your parents conceived you? Did you exist? Did it bother you that you didn't exist? I assure you, it won't bother the dead either.

They "know nothing" of what is happening on the earth, they lose the "thoughts" (plans) they had while alive on the earth (it does not say they do not think), they do not "work" like they did while alive, and they have no wisdom, which is something needed for life on earth to know what to do.

There is nothing there imo that shows the JW doctrine that the dead are non existent.

All I see is a wave of the hand and excuses not to believe what is clearly written.....
In verse 6 of Ecclesiastes 9 it says....."Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun." (ESV)

Now we can understand why negative emotions like hate and envy might no longer be present...but why would their "love" also perish?....isn't it because these emotions have "perished" along with the human body that felt them? According to Solomon, there is no separate, conscious part of man that departs from the body at death.....

The words "immortal soul" do not exist in any passage of scripture. This idea is not from God but from Platonic Greek ideas that are read into scripture by inference. Who wants us to believe that we don't really die? Who was it that told that first lie?...."you surely will not die"....can't you see that he is still deceiving people by this first lie....Eve fell for it too. Humans are 'programmed' to live forever so its an easy idea to promote.....tell people what they want to hear....you don't really die, you just go on living in another form in another place.....but where will I find that in the Bible? Was it something the ancient Jews, like Abraham or Moses ever believed? They never mentioned it.

If you really want to believe something you will fit it into how you read a Bible verse....but never in context. The rest of scripture will shoot it down. Immortal souls do not exist in the Bible....period.

So what then is a "soul" as the ancient Jews understood the word?

Solomon again makes mention of a comparison between man and animals...both called "souls" in Genesis.
Ecclesiastes 3:19-20....
"For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. 20 All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return." (ESV)

What did God tell Adam about his death?
Genesis 3:19...
"By the sweat of your face
you shall eat bread,
till you return to the ground,
for out of it you were taken;
for you are dust,
and to dust you shall return.”

There it is....exactly what Solomon said....all simply return to the dust. No part of man lives on because that would make the resurrection redundant. Jews believed in the resurrection, i.e. a return to this life by God restoring the life of the whole person, NOT by an immortal part of us living on 'somewhere' and then being reunited with a new body. If there is no immortal soul, you don't have to invent places for them to go...."souls" are mortal...they die. (Ezekiel 18:4)

For Jews, there was no belief in "heaven or hell" and no "holding tanks" for spirits of the dead to hang around waiting for the resurrection. There was just life or death....with nothing in between death and resurrection. Sheol was a place for the dead to "sleep"....without consciousness....like we do when we sleep at night.....do we know how long we have slept? 15 minutes or 5 hours may seem the same. Only a clock will tell us.

This would be one of the scriptures that gave Jews a belief in an afterlife (except for the Sadducees whom Jesus said did not know the scriptures, and went on to say that God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and that He is not God of the dead but of the living------they were dead bodily but still alive in sheol and so could be resurrected,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,something that cannot happen if the dead go out of existence, it would be a re-creation and a re-creation is no more than a copy of a person, so the Sadducees did not believe in a resurrection because they did not believe that we have a soul which survives death.)

Again, this is a figure of speech as is seen in Luke 20:37-38...
"But that the dead are raised, even Moses showed, in the passage about the bush, where he calls the Lord the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. 38 Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to him.” (ESV)

As far as God is concerned its like all the dead are just asleep in the next room waiting for him to awaken them.
Like Jesus with Lazarus.....he had not gone anywhere....after plainly saying that Lazarus was "sleeping", Jesus called him out of his grave, just like he will do for all of dead mankind when the Kingdom rules this earth. (John 5:28-29) People are called out of their graves, not from some phantom spiritual realm.

 

[Deeje]

According to the story in the Bible it was Samuel, and JWs have to deny that it was Samuel.
Why Samuel spoke to Saul is God's business, maybe to give him the true prophecy that he gave.
God uses those who do evil for His purposes, He even used Satan in the story of Job.
The witch was shocked when she actually saw Samuel come up, it was not common for her and it that which made her realise that it was Saul she was speaking with.

You don't think that the demons have this ability to impersonate the dead using those methods condemned by God to deceive people? Where do you think they learned to deceive so convincingly? The woman had to describe this spirit to Saul.
1 Samuel 28:13-15....
"The king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What do you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I see a god coming up out of the earth.” 14 He said to her, “What is his appearance?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped in a robe.” And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and paid homage.

15 Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” Saul answered, “I am in great distress, for the Philistines are warring against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams. Therefore I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do.”

Do you think that a faithful dead prophet is going to speak to an apostate King, by using a means that carried the death penalty in Israel? God's living prophets would not speak to Saul.....so if you believe that, then the demons are having a lend of you too IMO....just like they were with Saul.....laughing at his desperation as he lost his faith along with his sanity.

Jesus gave His life as a ransom for many and He took His life back. (Matt 20:28, John 10:17,18) Why do you say that He could do that but not take His body back? We actually know He took His body back, it is in the gospels (Matt 28:5, Luke 24:37-39,John 2:19-22)

The life that Jesus regained was the one he had before coming to the earth as a sinless human ransom for all mankind.

He was not raised "in the flesh"...but "in the spirit". (1 Peter 3:18) As a spirit being, he could materialize a fleshly body so as to communicate with his apostles and others. He was not always in the same body.....and on one occasion, he appeared in a body with the wounds of his execution to convince Thomas....but at other times they did not recognize him and no wounds were in evidence. On another occasion, he disappeared right before their eyes. (Luke 24:31) You think flesh and blood can do that?

It was against God's law to communicate with spirits....as Saul well knew. That is why God's angels always appeared in physical form....and why Jesus did too.

I was not taking about everlasting torment in hell I was talking about the truth of our soul which is not killed at the death of the body, which Matt 10:28 affirms and teaches.
As for everlasting torment I agree with JWs about this but also affirm that the Bible does speak of the torment of those who are thrown into the lake of fire even though it does not say it lasts forever.

In order to suffer, one has to be alive.....everlasting torment requires everlasting life....but that is promised only to the righteous. The lake of fire is "gehenna" a place where all the refuse of this world will go for disposal, like the original "gehenna" outside the walls of Jerusalem where the city's garbage was dumped along with the bodies of those not considered worthy of a decent burial. It carried the thought of not being remembered by God in the resurrection. What the flames missed, the maggots finished off.....such an ignominious end. No one would remember that those in gehenna ever existed...not even God.

A "soul" in the Bible is a living breathing creature....this word never means a disembodied spirit.

Just because Lazarus did not know or remember where he was tells us nothing.
Lazarus soul returned to him just as the soul of the boy in (1Kings 17:21,22)
Man became a living soul in Genesis but the soul survives the death of the body according to Jesus and the soul of the boy returned to him in 1Kings etc. I just put the scriptures together and realise that even though Genesis says Adam became a living soul, the word soul is expounded on in the scriptures and has a deeper meaning than what the JWs accept.

Hang on.....the word "soul" is synonymous with life. A soul breathes. Therefore when a dead person is resurrected, they breathe again and are restored to this life....not another kind of life, somewhere else.... except for the "elect" who will be given the same resurrection as Jesus to life in heaven.....this small number make up the rulers in the Kingdom which will have earthly subjects, restoring all that we lost in Eden. (Revelation 20:6 ; 21:2-4)

Both the righteous and unrighteous are called from sheol/hades are reunited with the body in resurrection.

Please tell me where it says that....

In the Christian Greek scriptures the word hades is used and the many Greeks who became Christians would know what they meant, even though all the underworld activities that the dead may have been involved in in Greek mythology would be divorced from the Christian teaching, but still the same basic thing was taught by the Jews and Christians about a place for the souls of the dead and it is not the teaching that the JWs teach.

There is no "underworld".....the grave (sheol/hades) in under the ground. But no one is alive in there and no souls have gone anywhere. They are simply 'asleep' waiting to be remembered by God in the resurrection, who knows all the trillions of stars by name....so what difficulty would a few billion humans be to remember?

It seems that for a few centuries before Christ till the first century the Jews believed in 2 places in sheol, one for the righteous and one for the unrighteous (hence the story of Lazarus in Luke 16) and the place for the righteous in sheol was called "paradise" and this is what Jesus would have meant when He told the thief he would be in paradise with Him on that day.

You do understand that Judaism was right off the rails long before Jesus came to this earth.....? Whatever they had concocted about sheol was adopted from the Greeks, not from the scriptures. The man who was hung alongside Jesus was not in paradise with Jesus that day because Jesus was in his tomb for three days and nights. He was promising the man a resurrection in the paradise to come.

 

[LactoseIntolerant]

Why did God make humans.If he knew from the start some would go to hell?I ask this because if God is all knowing.He knew some people were going to hell and some weren't.From the very beginning.

There is no hell. It is unscriptural. It is metaphysically unnecessary. God is All Loving but is a sociopath (creating a torture chamber) does not jive. It is fable used to scare little children. The stick where there is only a carrot.

God is Omniscient. The universe is not magical, so there are some problems that have no solutions. Free will for all and salvation for all is one such problem. In a multivariable, multifuctional problem, there are no optimum solutions just optimal ones. God in his Wisdom and Love provides such a solution in Faith in Jesus and the subsequent pursuit of Grace in the Eyes of God.

There are 2 persons in a handshake. If person A says hello despite knowing how person B does not, is it any fault of person A that the handshake did not take place. Your question is based on pagan notions of fate. The choice is ours not fate.

 

[Brian2]

I find the definition of the lake of fire is ' second death ' - Revelation 20:13-14; Revelation 21:8.

Yes the first death is the death of the body and the second death involves the destruction of both body and soul, the spirit part that survives the death of the body. (Matt 10:28)

In death ( without a resurrection ) there is 'perpetual sleep' - Jeremiah 51:39; Jeremiah 51:57
Judgement ( adverse or favorable ) comes ' after ' what a person does ' after ' they are resurrected.
Please remember: 'Death' is what wipes the sin-slate clean - Romans 6:23; Romans 6:7
It is Not ' death plus..... ' anything else.
There is No post-mortem punishment, No double jeopardy for the resurrected dead.

Everyone will be resurrected including those of Babylon and Adam and Eve and those in Sodom and Gomorrah etc.
I don't know that the "perpetual sleep" of Jer 51: 39,57 was referring to death. I think it probably was referring to the fall and non rising again of Babylon and the Babylonian Empire.
Everyone will be judged according to what they have done in this life (and I guess for those in the 1000 years that would include that time also because it still would be "this life" for them.
How is it possible for people to pay for the sins they will do after they have been resurrected?
The second death includes punishment on top of just dying. The dying and destruction is not going to be instantaneous. (Rev 14:11 etc)

 

[Brian2]

Yes...it describes the condition of the whole person, not just their body. For your consciousness to continue after death, you would need to retain your personality.....how can you retain being you if you are devoid of the things that made you who you were?
Can I ask you where you were before your parents conceived you? Did you exist? Did it bother you that you didn't exist? I assure you, it won't bother the dead either.

Your inner soul is the essence of who you are.
There is nothing in what you said that tells us we will be unconscious, why is spirit unconscious? how is our life dead?

All I see is a wave of the hand and excuses not to believe what is clearly written.....
In verse 6 of Ecclesiastes 9 it says....."Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun." (ESV)

Now we can understand why negative emotions like hate and envy might no longer be present...but why would their "love" also perish?....isn't it because these emotions have "perished" along with the human body that felt them? According to Solomon, there is no separate, conscious part of man that departs from the body at death.....

Is it not clear that what is being spoken of is that this life and it's problems have all gone in death but nowhere is it saying that we are unconscious.

The words "immortal soul" do not exist in any passage of scripture. This idea is not from God but from Platonic Greek ideas that are read into scripture by inference. Who wants us to believe that we don't really die? Who was it that told that first lie?...."you surely will not die"....can't you see that he is still deceiving people by this first lie....Eve fell for it too. Humans are 'programmed' to live forever so its an easy idea to promote.....tell people what they want to hear....you don't really die, you just go on living in another form in another place.....but where will I find that in the Bible? Was it something the ancient Jews, like Abraham or Moses ever believed? They never mentioned it.

If you really want to believe something you will fit it into how you read a Bible verse....but never in context. The rest of scripture will shoot it down. Immortal souls do not exist in the Bible....period.

That is a moot point when it comes to what I have said. I did not mention immortal soul but what I did mention is what Jesus tells us about, the soul that lives on after the death of the body and that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are still living.

So what then is a "soul" as the ancient Jews understood the word?

Solomon again makes mention of a comparison between man and animals...both called "souls" in Genesis.
Ecclesiastes 3:19-20....
"For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. 20 All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return." (ESV)

What did God tell Adam about his death?
Genesis 3:19...
"By the sweat of your face
you shall eat bread,
till you return to the ground,
for out of it you were taken;
for you are dust,
and to dust you shall return.”

There it is....exactly what Solomon said....all simply return to the dust. No part of man lives on because that would make the resurrection redundant. Jews believed in the resurrection, i.e. a return to this life by God restoring the life of the whole person, NOT by an immortal part of us living on 'somewhere' and then being reunited with a new body. If there is no immortal soul, you don't have to invent places for them to go...."souls" are mortal...they die. (Ezekiel 18:4)

The part of us that is made is our body, the spirit comes from God. The part that disintegrates is the part that was made, the body. You speak as if there is no spiritual part of man and that is because you do not believe there is.
Eccles 12:6 Remember Him before the silver cord is snapped and the golden bowl is crushed, before the pitcher is shattered at the spring and the wheel is broken at the well, 7 before the dust returns to the ground from which it came and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

God knows where to keep our spirit so it can be retrieved and resurrected with a body, in hades.

For Jews, there was no belief in "heaven or hell" and no "holding tanks" for spirits of the dead to hang around waiting for the resurrection. There was just life or death....with nothing in between death and resurrection. Sheol was a place for the dead to "sleep"....without consciousness....like we do when we sleep at night.....do we know how long we have slept? 15 minutes or 5 hours may seem the same. Only a clock will tell us..

Of course when we are dead we no doubt have no idea about time and how long we have been dead etc. Things such as time are of the earth I would say and we don't know about it.
You are wrong about all OT Jews and their non belief in an afterlife.

Again, this is a figure of speech as is seen in Luke 20:37-38...
"But that the dead are raised, even Moses showed, in the passage about the bush, where he calls the Lord the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. 38 Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to him.” (ESV)

As far as God is concerned its like all the dead are just asleep in the next room waiting for him to awaken them.
Like Jesus with Lazarus.....he had not gone anywhere....after plainly saying that Lazarus was "sleeping", Jesus called him out of his grave, just like he will do for all of dead mankind when the Kingdom rules this earth. (John 5:28-29) People are called out of their graves, not from some phantom spiritual realm.

At the first resurrection we see that the dead in Christ are brought back with Jesus to be resurrected. How does that work if those dead in Christ no longer exist?
They will be resurrected into an immortal and incorruptible body, our spiritual body, because our body along with our spirit is redeemed by Jesus. Our spirit is born again in this life and our body at the resurrection.
1Thess 4:13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Romans 8:10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.
Romans 8:22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved.

How is it that there are souls under an altar in heaven (Rev 6:9)?

 

[Brian2]

You don't think that the demons have this ability to impersonate the dead using those methods condemned by God to deceive people? Where do you think they learned to deceive so convincingly? The woman had to describe this spirit to Saul.
1 Samuel 28:13-15....
"The king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What do you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I see a god coming up out of the earth.” 14 He said to her, “What is his appearance?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped in a robe.” And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and paid homage.

15 Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” Saul answered, “I am in great distress, for the Philistines are warring against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams. Therefore I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do.”

Do you think that a faithful dead prophet is going to speak to an apostate King, by using a means that carried the death penalty in Israel? God's living prophets would not speak to Saul.....so if you believe that, then the demons are having a lend of you too IMO....just like they were with Saul.....laughing at his desperation as he lost his faith along with his sanity.

I don't care if demons has the ability to impersonate the dead. What matters is what the Bible tells us and it tells us that Samuel came back and spoke to Saul.
Samuel did not have a choice in the matter, He was brought back to speak to Saul by God and Samuel prophesied correctly and delivered God's sentence onto Saul.
1Sam 28:16 Samuel said, “Why do you consult me, now that the Lord has departed from you and become your enemy? 17 The Lord has done what he predicted through me. The Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbours—to David. 18 Because you did not obey the Lord or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the Lord has done this to you today. 19 The Lord will deliver both Israel and you into the hands of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also give the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines.”

The life that Jesus regained was the one he had before coming to the earth as a sinless human ransom for all mankind.

The life that Jesus regained is the life that He laid down as a ransom for many.
John 10:17 The reason the Father loves Me is that I lay down My life in order to take it up again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of My own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from My Father.”
He laid down the life of His body and laid down His body,,,,,,,,,,,,as ransom.
He regained to life of the body and regained the body, as the scriptures tell us. (John 2:19-22 etc)

He was not raised "in the flesh"...but "in the spirit". (1 Peter 3:18) As a spirit being, he could materialize a fleshly body so as to communicate with his apostles and others. He was not always in the same body.....and on one occasion, he appeared in a body with the wounds of his execution to convince Thomas....but at other times they did not recognize him and no wounds were in evidence. On another occasion, he disappeared right before their eyes. (Luke 24:31) You think flesh and blood can do that?

I think it is amazing what the glorified resurrection body can do and I think you are misreading the scriptures when you describe Jesus resurrection body on different occasions.

It was against God's law to communicate with spirits....as Saul well knew. That is why God's angels always appeared in physical form....and why Jesus did too.

It is against God's law to go to a medium or witch to communicate with spirits. If an angels comes to you as a spirit and speaks to you then that is not unlawful. This happened to Mary at the annunciation and at the tomb also.
Matt 28:2 There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. 3 His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow. 4 The guards were so afraid of him that they shook and became like dead men.
5 The angel said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. 6 He is not here; he has risen, just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay.

Yes that's right, He rose bodily.

In order to suffer, one has to be alive.....everlasting torment requires everlasting life....but that is promised only to the righteous. The lake of fire is "gehenna" a place where all the refuse of this world will go for disposal, like the original "gehenna" outside the walls of Jerusalem where the city's garbage was dumped along with the bodies of those not considered worthy of a decent burial. It carried the thought of not being remembered by God in the resurrection. What the flames missed, the maggots finished off.....such an ignominious end. No one would remember that those in gehenna ever existed...not even God.
A "soul" in the Bible is a living breathing creature....this word never means a disembodied spirit.

Again a moot point since I said nothing about an immortal soul and I even agreed with JW views.
Nevertheless those who are thrown into the lake of fire do suffer torment unless you deny what the Bible tells us about it. As I said, it does not say how long their torment lasts.
When Jesus spoke of the soul living on after the death of the body I don't think He was talking about an embodied spirit, do you.
"soul" sometimes means a disembodied spirit in the scriptures but JWs deny those places.
Rev 6:9 is one such place and 1Kings 17:21 would be another and Matt 10:28 would be another.

Please tell me where it says that....

There is only one resurrection described in the scriptures and it is of the body. I think I have provided Romans 8:11 and Romans 8:23.

There is no "underworld".....the grave (sheol/hades) in under the ground. But no one is alive in there and no souls have gone anywhere. They are simply 'asleep' waiting to be remembered by God in the resurrection, who knows all the trillions of stars by name....so what difficulty would a few billion humans be to remember?

God would have no difficulty remembering trillions of people but that is not the point.
A copy is a copy is a copy and resurrection is not about making a copy.
If God made a copy of me now there would not be 2 of me, there would be me and my copy,,,,,,,,,,,which would not be me. It is the same if God made a copy of me after I died.

You do understand that Judaism was right off the rails long before Jesus came to this earth.....? Whatever they had concocted about sheol was adopted from the Greeks, not from the scriptures. The man who was hung alongside Jesus was not in paradise with Jesus that day because Jesus was in his tomb for three days and nights. He was promising the man a resurrection in the paradise to come.

That is reading your theology into the text instead of reading it according to the use of words and understanding of the day.
Anyway the phrase that Jesus used all through the gospels was "Truly I tells you,....." never "Truly I tell you today,....."

 

[Deeje]

Your inner soul is the essence of who you are.

A "soul" in the Bible is a living, breathing creature......the word never means a disembodied "spirit". You are confusing those two word which have entirely different meanings.

Animals are called "souls" in Genesis and there is no everlasting life offered to them. Solomon said that we have no advantage over the animals in death....we all have the same "breath" (spirit). (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20)
What made Adam "a living soul"? It was "the breath of life".....Adam became a soul when God started him breathing.

There is nothing in what you said that tells us we will be unconscious, why is spirit unconscious? how is our life dead?

In Psalm 146:3-4 from the Tanakh, it reads....
"Do not trust in princes, in the son of man, who has no salvation.
4 His spirit leaves, he returns to his soil; on that day, his thoughts are lost."

Same scripture from the KJ21...
"Put not your trust in princes, nor in a son of man in whom there is no help.
4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish."

When the spirit "leaves" it is with the expulsion of the last "breath"....the "spirit" that returns to God is given back in the resurrection when he will again breathe into a resurrected one's nostrils "the breath (spirit) of life".

Is it not clear that what is being spoken of is that this life and it's problems have all gone in death but nowhere is it saying that we are unconscious.

Yes, all the problems of this life will be over....but there is no spiritual place for souls to spend time in a conscious state awaiting a resurrection. The ancient Jews had no notion of such a thing....God offered them only "life or death".....there is no place for souls to go after death....show me where it says such a thing....?

That is a moot point when it comes to what I have said. I did not mention immortal soul but what I did mention is what Jesus tells us about, the soul that lives on after the death of the body and that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are still living.

You are speaking of an immortal soul when you imply that humans do not die, but go on living in a different form in a different place.....once we have lived and have a record with God, he never forgets us....all of his faithful servants are still living in his infinite memory....he is eager to give them back their lives.

The part of us that is made is our body, the spirit comes from God.

The spirit is our breath....it has no personality....it simply animates a soul. A soul cannot live without a body.
There is no such thing as a disembodied soul. Spirit beings are not souls.....they do not breathe.

The part that disintegrates is the part that was made, the body. You speak as if there is no spiritual part of man and that is because you do not believe there is.

The spiritual part of man is God's image....its what makes us seek God when we are alive. No one can seek God whilst they sleep in death. The dead are not conscious. Please provide scripture that says they are....

Eccles 12:6 Remember Him before the silver cord is snapped and the golden bowl is crushed, before the pitcher is shattered at the spring and the wheel is broken at the well, 7 before the dust returns to the ground from which it came and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

As I mentioned before...the "spirit" is the breath that will be returned to all the dead when the general resurrection takes place. There are two resurrections....a "first" to gather the 'elect'.....and another to follow once the Kingdom is ruling the earth. (Revelation 20:6; John 5:28-29)

God knows where to keep our spirit so it can be retrieved and resurrected with a body, in hades.

So you have no idea where this supposed holding tank for spirits actually is? Please tell us where it says that such a place exists....? And why you think God needs to keep part of us alive whilst he deals with the devil?

Of course when we are dead we no doubt have no idea about time and how long we have been dead etc. Things such as time are of the earth I would say and we don't know about it.
You are wrong about all OT Jews and their non belief in an afterlife.

You are making up stuff now.....
The ancient Jews did not have belief in an afterlife...that came later when the Greeks influenced their thinking on life after death and they probably found it appealing for the same reasons why you do. The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection.
Even as far back as the Patriarchs, Job expressed belief in the resurrection, not life after death.

Job 14:14-15...
"When a man dies, will he come back to life?
If so, I would wait all the days of my struggle
until my relief comes.
15 You would call, and I would answer You.
You would long for the work of Your hands."

Job was going to "come back to life", not continue it. He would wait for the "call", like Jesus did to call Lazarus out of his tomb, to arise from the sleep of death. Can you tell me why Jesus would bring Lazarus back from "paradise" only to have him die a second time later? What was the point?
For one, it was a demonstration of things to come....and for two it changed Lazarus' destiny. No one who died before Jesus could go to heaven because Jesus had to be the "firstborn from the dead"...the first human raised to spirit life. So no other human had ever done so. (1 Peter 3:18)

At the first resurrection we see that the dead in Christ are brought back with Jesus to be resurrected. How does that work if those dead in Christ no longer exist?

Jesus "presence" (parousia) takes place long before his manifestation at the judgment. These are two separate events. Jesus gave a "sign" to show his disciples that he would be "present" (Matthew 24:3) and at that time the "first resurrection" was to take place....all the "dead in Christ" who were still in their graves, began to rise during these last days. By the time of the judgment, those still on earth would be gathered with him, not needing to sleep in death but transformed "in the twinkling of an eye" to be united with Christ and their brothers of the elect who had already been raised.
The rest of mankind are not resurrected until the earth is prepared to receive them back.

They will be resurrected into an immortal and incorruptible body, our spiritual body, because our body along with our spirit is redeemed by Jesus. Our spirit is born again in this life and our body at the resurrection.

This is speaking of the elect who will rule as kings and priests with Jesus in heaven (Revelation 20:6).....I am not of that number....my hope is entirely earthly because this is where God designed us to live....forever.

1Thess 4:13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Yes this speaks of the "coming of the Lord" a manifestation that the whole world will behold....but Christ's "parousia" takes place well before that....allowing all the features of the sign to be in clear evidence. (Matthew 24:3-14, 21) The "great tribulation" comes at the end when all the other features have manifested.
These ones of the elect are not raised until Christ's return....and they are raised "first". No one lived on anywhere...they slept peacefully until Jesus awakened them.

Romans 8:10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.
Romans 8:22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved.

Yes...again all pertaining to the elect, not to those who survive the end times or those who come back in the general resurrection of the dead.

How is it that there are souls under an altar in heaven (Rev 6:9)?

Revelation is figurative, very little is literal. These "souls" are lives lost in martyrdom. This verse is connected to the ride of the horsemen of the Apocalypse.

Revelation 6:9-11 says...
" When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the people slaughtered because of God’s word and the testimony they had.10 They cried out with a loud voice: “Lord, the One who is holy and true, how long until You judge and avenge our blood from those who live on the earth?” 11 So a white robe was given to each of them, and they were told to rest a little while longer until the number would be completed of their fellow slaves and their brothers, who were going to be killed just as they had been." (HCSB)

Do you see that these are "people" (souls) that John saw, not spirits.....like the blood of Abel, (Genesis 4:10) their blood is crying out for justice to be done....a little while longer and it will be....but more of their brothers will be martyred first proving that are faithful to the death.

 

[Deeje]

I don't care if demons has the ability to impersonate the dead. What matters is what the Bible tells us and it tells us that Samuel came back and spoke to Saul.
Samuel did not have a choice in the matter, He was brought back to speak to Saul by God and Samuel prophesied correctly and delivered God's sentence onto Saul.
1Sam 28:16 Samuel said, “Why do you consult me, now that the Lord has departed from you and become your enemy? 17 The Lord has done what he predicted through me. The Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbours—to David. 18 Because you did not obey the Lord or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the Lord has done this to you today. 19 The Lord will deliver both Israel and you into the hands of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also give the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines.”




The life that Jesus regained is the life that He laid down as a ransom for many.
John 10:17 The reason the Father loves Me is that I lay down My life in order to take it up again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of My own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from My Father.”
He laid down the life of His body and laid down His body,,,,,,,,,,,,as ransom.
He regained to life of the body and regained the body, as the scriptures tell us. (John 2:19-22 etc)



I think it is amazing what the glorified resurrection body can do and I think you are misreading the scriptures when you describe Jesus resurrection body on different occasions.



It is against God's law to go to a medium or witch to communicate with spirits. If an angels comes to you as a spirit and speaks to you then that is not unlawful. This happened to Mary at the annunciation and at the tomb also.
Matt 28:2 There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. 3 His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow. 4 The guards were so afraid of him that they shook and became like dead men.
5 The angel said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. 6 He is not here; he has risen, just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay.

Yes that's right, He rose bodily.



Again a moot point since I said nothing about an immortal soul and I even agreed with JW views.
Nevertheless those who are thrown into the lake of fire do suffer torment unless you deny what the Bible tells us about it. As I said, it does not say how long their torment lasts.
When Jesus spoke of the soul living on after the death of the body I don't think He was talking about an embodied spirit, do you.
"soul" sometimes means a disembodied spirit in the scriptures but JWs deny those places.
Rev 6:9 is one such place and 1Kings 17:21 would be another and Matt 10:28 would be another.



There is only one resurrection described in the scriptures and it is of the body. I think I have provided Romans 8:11 and Romans 8:23.



God would have no difficulty remembering trillions of people but that is not the point.
A copy is a copy is a copy and resurrection is not about making a copy.
If God made a copy of me now there would not be 2 of me, there would be me and my copy,,,,,,,,,,,which would not be me. It is the same if God made a copy of me after I died.



That is reading your theology into the text instead of reading it according to the use of words and understanding of the day.
Anyway the phrase that Jesus used all through the gospels was "Truly I tells you,....." never "Truly I tell you today,....."

I'm sorry but we have already been through all of this......believe whatever you wish...its got nothing to do with me....I have explained all this before from my perspective and you can choose to read into scripture whatever floats your boat. We will all just have to allow Jesus to correct us.......won't we? (Matthew 7:21-23)

 

[URAVIP2ME]

People ponder heavens and hells too much. Why not concern themselves with serving their gods and others more? I'm more interested in life and right now.

I am wondering how Jesus would reply to the ^ above^.
Perhaps he would reply by the recorded words found at John 4:23-24
That true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth.....must worship with spirit and truth.
That to me puts the focus on: serving God.
We can all cultivate spiritual or spirit-like qualities such as self-sacrificing love, peace, patience, self control, etc.
To Jesus 'truth' was that he believed the old Hebrew Scriptures to be: religious fact - John 17:17
We should all be interested in 'life and right now', and to me the answer to 'life and right now' is found in Jesus' words.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

People are leaving Christianity in droves. The posts in the forum are evidence of that.

Leaving Christianity or leaving 'Christendom' ( so-called Christian )
Jesus forewarned us that MANY would prove false to him - Matthew 7:21-23.
That does Not mean Matthew 24:14 will Not be internationally fulfilled.
Seems that you are observing Revelation 16:12 because the ' water dried up ' is Not literal water.
It is figurative 'religious water' or 'religious people' who are drying up spiritually -> Revelation 17:1-2; Revelation 17:15
The figurative 'sheep' at the soon coming 'time of separation' to take place on Earth are Not spiritually dried up ones.
- Matthew 25:31-33,37

 

[URAVIP2ME]

There is no hell. It is unscriptural. It is metaphysically unnecessary. God is All Loving but is a sociopath (creating a torture chamber) does not jive. It is fable used to scare little children................................

I would like to take the liberty to say there is: No religious-myth hell.
In the Bible there is hell but 'biblical hell' is just the grave for the sleeping dead.
This is why Jesus and the OT teach 'sleep' in death - John 11:11-14; Psalms 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5
The day Jesus died according to Acts 2:27 dead Jesus went to hell (biblical grave)
There is No bliss and No pain after death, just unconscious sleep.
So, yes, 'hell fire' is unscriptural but the grave is real. (Even the word cemetery means: sleeping place )
When King James translated the word Gehenna into English as hell fire that put the flames in the grave.
Gehenna was just a garbage pit outside of Jerusalem where things were: destroyed.
So, Gehenna is a fitting word for: destruction.
Destruction is in harmony with Scripture that the wicked will be destroyed forever - Psalms 92:7; Psalms 104:35; Proverbs 2:21-22
So, it's false clergy who use the threat of a 'hell fire' Not only as a scare tactic for little children but for everyone.

 

[Dogknox20]

Why did God make humans.If he knew from the start some would go to hell?I ask this because if God is all knowing. He knew some people were going to hell and some weren't.From the very beginning.

Hello Frank Goad Good to meet you..
First.. "God is Love!" God made man in his image! Only man can love; Dogs, Pigs, Chickens, Frogs, Snails, Grasshoppers etc cannot love! To love you need free will because love is "Giving of yourself for another person"; it is letting go of self for another! Love must be given freely or it is NOT love!

God had to give man Free Will so Man could love! THIS....

Frank Goad this means there will be some men who will freely chose NOT to love! Like Adam he made his choice NOT to love; so he was removed from heaven because only those who are as God only those who love can enter heaven!

Satan does not live in heaven he is full of hate he has already been judged, he can't change, he can't change his mind and decide to give of himself for another! All who refuse to love are Satan's children. Satan and his offspring live with burning hate!

What you ask is... "Why did not God make all peoples with Love"... He could have made people love but then the Love of each person would not be true love!
"LOVE IS AN ACT OF FREE CHOICE FROM THE HEART!"

 

[LactoseIntolerant]

I would like to take the liberty to say there is: No religious-myth hell.
In the Bible there is hell but 'biblical hell' is just the grave for the sleeping dead.
This is why Jesus and the OT teach 'sleep' in death - John 11:11-14; Psalms 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5
The day Jesus died according to Acts 2:27 dead Jesus went to hell (biblical grave)
There is No bliss and No pain after death, just unconscious sleep.
So, yes, 'hell fire' is unscriptural but the grave is real. (Even the word cemetery means: sleeping place )
When King James translated the word Gehenna into English as hell fire that put the flames in the grave.
Gehenna was just a garbage pit outside of Jerusalem where things were: destroyed.
So, Gehenna is a fitting word for: destruction.
Destruction is in harmony with Scripture that the wicked will be destroyed forever - Psalms 92:7; Psalms 104:35; Proverbs 2:21-22
So, it's false clergy who use the threat of a 'hell fire' Not only as a scare tactic for little children but for everyone.

Burn a book, you can't recover the information. That is what is meant by Eternal Fire. Sheol is like an archive backup on a hard disk. If it is a left hand side hard drive it is burnt like a book till all info is unrecoverable. If on a right hand side hard disk it is uploaded to a heavenly system dynamic memory. Just an analogy.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Burn a book, you can't recover the information. That is what is meant by Eternal Fire. Sheol is like an archive backup on a hard disk. If it is a left hand side hard drive it is burnt like a book till all info is unrecoverable. If on a right hand side hard disk it is uploaded to a heavenly system dynamic memory. Just an analogy.

Yes, burn and can't recover, but the dead in Hebrew sheol (English grave) can be recovered via a Resurrection.
Whereas, ' second death ' is the Eternal Fire ( <-the symbolic fire of destruction ) - Revelation 21:8
Those in God's dynamic memory (His heavenly system) will have a resurrection - Acts of the Apostles 24:15
A resurrection out of 'death's deep sleep' as Jesus and the OT teach- John 11:11-14; Psalms 115:17; Isaiah 38:18

 

[Brian2]

I would like to take the liberty to say there is: No religious-myth hell.
In the Bible there is hell but 'biblical hell' is just the grave for the sleeping dead.
This is why Jesus and the OT teach 'sleep' in death - John 11:11-14; Psalms 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5
The day Jesus died according to Acts 2:27 dead Jesus went to hell (biblical grave)
There is No bliss and No pain after death, just unconscious sleep.
So, yes, 'hell fire' is unscriptural but the grave is real. (Even the word cemetery means: sleeping place )
When King James translated the word Gehenna into English as hell fire that put the flames in the grave.
Gehenna was just a garbage pit outside of Jerusalem where things were: destroyed.
So, Gehenna is a fitting word for: destruction.
Destruction is in harmony with Scripture that the wicked will be destroyed forever - Psalms 92:7; Psalms 104:35; Proverbs 2:21-22
So, it's false clergy who use the threat of a 'hell fire' Not only as a scare tactic for little children but for everyone.

The real hell is the lake of fire and people are tormented there but it does not say forever.

 

[Brian2]

Yes, burn and can't recover, but the dead in Hebrew sheol (English grave) can be recovered via a Resurrection.
Whereas, ' second death ' is the Eternal Fire ( <-the symbolic fire of destruction ) - Revelation 21:8
Those in God's dynamic memory (His heavenly system) will have a resurrection - Acts of the Apostles 24:15
A resurrection out of 'death's deep sleep' as Jesus and the OT teach- John 11:11-14; Psalms 115:17; Isaiah 38:18

Everyone is resurrected.
What is God's dynamic memory and where do you get that?
Resurrection is reuniting the spirit part of man with the body. Making a copy of a person by giving a body the same memories is just making a copy of a person who has the same memories. The scriptures do not say that a person goes out of existence at the death of the body.
Jesus said that when the body dies the soul does not die. (the soul, as in like the souls under that altar in Revelation, lie the soul within the Psalmist when he said, "Why are you so disturbed within me o my soul" (Ps 42,43)
I would not say that this soul is immortal, actually Jesus said that the body and soul can be destroyed. So don't say that I think the soul is immortal.

 

[Brian2]

A "soul" in the Bible is a living, breathing creature......the word never means a disembodied "spirit". You are confusing those two word which have entirely different meanings.

Animals are called "souls" in Genesis and there is no everlasting life offered to them. Solomon said that we have no advantage over the animals in death....we all have the same "breath" (spirit). (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20)
What made Adam "a living soul"? It was "the breath of life".....Adam became a soul when God started him breathing.

That is a JW idea and involves using the meaning of soul in Genesis and saying the word has no other meaning in scripture. Actually you do say it can mean other things but deny all the meanings because of your theology.
Even a JW believes humans have a spark of life which is more than just breathe going in and out. This spark of life is spirit but when it comes to humans having a spirit you say no. We are given spirit so that the body can live and it is the total person, body and spirit that is a soul, a living being.

In Psalm 146:3-4 from the Tanakh, it reads....
"Do not trust in princes, in the son of man, who has no salvation.
4 His spirit leaves, he returns to his soil; on that day, his thoughts are lost.".

That does not say we are unconscious and in other translations the real meaning is given and "thoughts are lost" is translated "plans perish".

When the spirit "leaves" it is with the expulsion of the last "breath"....the "spirit" that returns to God is given back in the resurrection when he will again breathe into a resurrected one's nostrils "the breath (spirit) of life".

You again want to change even the JW teaching to make it look like the breathe of life is just mouth to mouth resuscitation. The spirit is actually the life force which is not a dead force but is life itself and enable our body to live so we become a living soul. The spirit sees and analyses and decides and is the part of us that God is the Father of. The spirit becomes the essence of what we are and when the body dies the spirit part is the totality of us and is then the soul. (Matt 10:28) Even in the OT the Psalmist speaks of his soul within him (Ps 42,43) The soul returns to the boy resurrected by Elijah (1Kings 17:21) and souls are under the altar in heaven (Revelation)

Yes, all the problems of this life will be over....but there is no spiritual place for souls to spend time in a conscious state awaiting a resurrection. The ancient Jews had no notion of such a thing....God offered them only "life or death".....there is no place for souls to go after death....show me where it says such a thing....?

Every time it speaks of sheol it says such a thing but that is just another word that the Watch Tower has decided does not mean what the Jews knew and know it means.

You are speaking of an immortal soul when you imply that humans do not die, but go on living in a different form in a different place.....

No I am not. We both know that the scriptures tell us that the soul can be destroyed by God.

The spirit is our breath....it has no personality....it simply animates a soul. A soul cannot live without a body.
There is no such thing as a disembodied soul. Spirit beings are not souls.....they do not breathe.

Yes I know that you get your information from the Watchtower and not from the scriptures.

The spiritual part of man is God's image....its what makes us seek God when we are alive. No one can seek God whilst they sleep in death. The dead are not conscious. Please provide scripture that says they are....

I have done that any you deny it. (Try Luke 23:43, Luke 16-Lazarus, Isa 14:9,10, the souls under the altar -Rev 14, Samuel-1Sam 28:3-25, 1Pet 3:18-20)

So you have no idea where this supposed holding tank for spirits actually is? Please tell us where it says that such a place exists....? And why you think God needs to keep part of us alive whilst he deals with the devil?

It is not that God needs to keep us alive it is that the death of the body is when the spirit leaves and the spirit needs to be somewhere since it is then the essence of us and not just generic "life force". It is the soul that does not die at the death of the body. (Matt 10:28)

You are making up stuff now.....
The ancient Jews did not have belief in an afterlife...that came later when the Greeks influenced their thinking on life after death and they probably found it appealing for the same reasons why you do. The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection.
Even as far back as the Patriarchs, Job expressed belief in the resurrection, not life after death.

No I am not making stuff up.
Yes Job believed in a resurrection, so? Job also said other things.
Job 19:25 “As for me, I know that my Redeemer lives,
And at the last He will take His stand on the earth.
26 “Even after my skin is destroyed,
Yet from my flesh I shall see God;
27 Whom I myself shall behold,
And whom my eyes will see and not another.
My heart faints within me!

The rest of mankind are not resurrected until the earth is prepared to receive them back.

I know there are 2 resurrections and Jesus did not come in 1914 and the first resurrection has not taken place and when He comes we will see Him and He will bring back with Him those who have fallen asleep in Him so that they can be resurrected into their glorified, immortal and incorruptible bodies. (1Thess 4)

This is speaking of the elect who will rule as kings and priests with Jesus in heaven (Revelation 20:6).....I am not of that number....my hope is entirely earthly because this is where God designed us to live....forever.

Your are speaking of a Watchtower theory which is not supported by the scriptures anywhere and which makes most of the New Testament not applicable to a JW foot soldier. When the Bible shows that the resurrection is of the body (redemption of the body) and it is about the anointed class, the WT has to give a translation that makes it seem to show a resurrection without a body (redemption from the body). (Romans 8:23) I find nowhere where this translation is even suggested as a possibility but the WT uses it,,,,,,,,,,,and Romans 8:11 also speak of the dead body being given life.

Yes this speaks of the "coming of the Lord" a manifestation that the whole world will behold....but Christ's "parousia" takes place well before that....

Who are the dead in Christ that He bring back with Him in 1Thess 4:13-17 to be resurrected? It sounds like souls to me. Why are the anointed resurrected then if they are spirits already and are brought back?

Yes...again all pertaining to the elect, not to those who survive the end times or those who come back in the general resurrection of the dead.

You are speaking about Romans 8 where it tells us about the resurrection of the body. Why not answer that, a bodily resurrection for the elect. Just skip over it.
That WT fallacy about 2 classes of Christians and most of the New Testament being about them,,,,,,,,,,whenever the WT tells you it is about them.

Revelation is figurative, very little is literal. These "souls" are lives lost in martyrdom. This verse is connected to the ride of the horsemen of the Apocalypse.

Revelation is figurative whenever it suites the WT.

Do you see that these are "people" (souls) that John saw, not spirits.....like the blood of Abel, (Genesis 4:10) their blood is crying out for justice to be done....a little while longer and it will be....but more of their brothers will be martyred first proving that are faithful to the death.

You know that the word used is "souls" and they are the souls of those that were slain and are under the altar in heaven.
The dead don't have souls in JW theology and they certainly do not speak,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,so I guess it has to be figurative.

 

[Bird123]

Why did God make humans.If he knew from the start some would go to hell?I ask this because if God is all knowing.He knew some people were going to hell and some weren't.From the very beginning.

Very Good!! This proves Hell does not exist unless God is a Monster.

God returns our actions to teach us what our actions really mean. This can seem like Hell for those who choose very bad choices.On the other hand, this is not punishment, but education at it's best.

In time, God's system will teach us all to Love Unconditionally. After all, isn't that what everyone wants returning. Everyone will figure this out eventually.

Hell is not real. It exists only in the minds of mankind. The question remains: What will return, in time, for those who use the threat of Hell to gain followers? They too are going to be glad Hell doesn't really exist!!

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Brian2]

People are leaving Christianity in droves. The posts in the forum are evidence of that.

That might be just showing what you think of the posts and what you think should happen. I think the world figures about numbers of Christians would tell a different story.