Question about reincarnation...

[RationalSoulution]

I've just started reading a book on Buddhism and have a question on reincarnation.

EX: When the ice age hit, or the earth was hit by a meteor, etc. lets say there were 2 million beings on earth , but now, we have way more, 20 billion lets say (random estimations). Is there a set number of spirits? Are more created as needed? Or is there always an equal number of spirits, and in relation, an equal number of beings on earth/the universe? Meaning nothing ever really grows or multiplies, but lies in balance between spirit beings and living beings.

Hope that makes sense...

 

[methylatedghosts]

My guess - (And this is going from my beliefs) is that there are limitless amount of souls. I wuess buddhism is much the same.

 

[Engyo]

First, the Buddha taught rebirth, which differs from reincarnation in several ways. There is no fixed "soul" in Buddhism. Individuals are not reincarnated as individuals; thus to say that I used to be so-and-so in a previous life is not a direct relationsip, but an indirect one.

Secondly, why would you limit reincarnation or rebirth to just this one single tiny world, in all the worlds of all the galaxies of this universe and all the other universes too?

 

[Valjean]

There is a single Universal Conciousness. It can be subdivided extensively.

 

[michaelm]

Are there a fixed number of people in a dream always?

 

[Valjean]

Is there a fixed number of sparks a fire can generate; a fixed number of raindrops that oceanic evaporation can generate?

 

[GabrielWithoutWings]

Thats one of the things I still haven't been able to grasp in Buddhism. If I don't have a soul, then why am I punished for what my not-self did?

If I attain nirvana... is that the same as soul annihilation? If not, what enters nirvana? The Buddha nature? How is this different from a soul?

 

[michaelm]

There is only consciousness - nothing else. You, I, everyone, everything do not really have a separate existence. The single droplet thinks it is separate and individual, but when it reenters the ocean, where has it gone? When another droplet appears, is it the same droplet? or a different droplet?

In reality, there is no individuality, only consciousness, therefore there is no such thing as a separate soul, therefore there is also no such thing as karma, reincarnation or even rebirth, only the seeming continuation of this misconception. Once it is seem for what it truly is, then that is nirvana/moksha. This is not 'attained' since it is the only thing that truly exists and there is nothing to 'attain' it.

that said, whilst we are part of this seemingly very real world, we should do our best to live by the rules that apply to it, we must play our part, like characters in our dreams, if htey behave badly them it can cause distress - until we wake up and then know it is a dream, only a dream.

 

[Engyo]

Thats one of the things I still haven't been able to grasp in Buddhism. If I don't have a soul, then why am I punished for what my not-self did?

If I attain nirvana... is that the same as soul annihilation? If not, what enters nirvana? The Buddha nature? How is this different from a soul?

Gabriel -

First off, it's not punishment. It's a natural reaction, just like Newton's Second Law - governed entirely by the actions/choices of a living being. It isn't good or bad, it's completely neutral. The judgement is in how we interpret what happens to us - and by whether we enjoy or appreciate the results, we judge the original cause. Secondly, what does a soul have to do with the actions/choices of a living being?

Many Buddhists would point out that attainment of nirvana will extinguish the "I"....... and since Buddhists don't postulate a soul as Christianity does, how can something that doesn't exist be annihilated?

My tradition/school has perfect enlightenment as its goal, rather than nirvana. Total awakening/awareness, rather than cessation. Since this particular ego "I" have for this lifetime is a temporary construct, just like this body, "I" don't fear it's loss.

I don't know if this will be helpful or more confusing, but there it is.

 

[GabrielWithoutWings]

Ugh. If "I" is extinguished, then what experiences nirvana?

 

[GabrielWithoutWings]

Also, let's say my karma caused me to be born where I am. What exactly did I do? What did I not do?

What good is karma if it affects my birth, yet I have no recollection of what the "previous me" did or didn't do? I can't exactly learn a lesson with birth amnesia.

 

[Engyo]

Ugh. If "I" is extinguished, then what experiences nirvana?

I don't particularly know. As I mentioned, my tradition/school focuses on enlightenment rather than nirvana, so I am less knowledgeable regarding that particular concept/teaching.

If I were to substitute enlightenment for nirvana in your question, the answer would be life, but not ego. Also, I am not sure that "experiences" would be the best choice of verb......"manifests" or "displays" or "exhibits" or even "becomes" might fit better.

 

[Valjean]

Ugh. If "I" is extinguished, then what experiences nirvana?

Brahman -- the Universal Consciousness, the Conscious Universe itself, the single, unique Consciousness that is dreaming this Reality/Universe.

In Hindu tradition, one's consciousness is expanded, not extinguished.

 

[YmirGF]

In Hindu tradition, one's consciousness is expanded, not extinguished.

Bingo! :yes:

 

[GabrielWithoutWings]

Brahman -- the Universal Consciousness, the Conscious Universe itself, the single, unique Consciousness that is dreaming this Reality/Universe.

In Hindu tradition, one's consciousness is expanded, not extinguished.

Ah, you hold to Vedanta.

I have the Advaita Vedanta page on Wikipedia open in another browser window.

 

[Valjean]

Vedanta or Physics -- six of one/half a dozen of the other...

 

[Ozzie]

First, the Buddha taught rebirth, which differs from reincarnation in several ways. There is no fixed "soul" in Buddhism. Individuals are not reincarnated as individuals; thus to say that I used to be so-and-so in a previous life is not a direct relationsip, but an indirect one.

Secondly, why would you limit reincarnation or rebirth to just this one single tiny world, in all the worlds of all the galaxies of this universe and all the other universes too?

Good response. In addition, Buddhism does not speak of beginnings only a possible end to the cycle of rebirth through enlightenment. There are probably substantially more than 20 billion souls on various worlds yet to achieve it.

 

[Ozzie]

Brahman -- the Universal Consciousness, the Conscious Universe itself, the single, unique Consciousness that is dreaming this Reality/Universe.

In Hindu tradition, one's consciousness is expanded, not extinguished.

So the expansion allows one to acknowledge "I" is relative (thus extinguishing it as unique) and temporally unstable (impermanence) doesn't it?

Bingo! :yes:

Do you agree with the above?

 

[YmirGF]

So the expansion allows one to acknowledge "I" is relative doesn't it (thus extinguishing it as unique).

Do you agree with the above?

Not really. I have tried to explain that one arrives at a view of "self" that is considerably beyond ordinary understanding -- so much so, that it could be labelled as "not self" in that it is certainly not the ordinary sense of self, that is for sure. It is not "self" in an egotistical sense, but rather, a far larger vantage of what personality may well include. To be realistic, "expansion" is apt, but doesn't go far enough really, as this "expansion" is in monumental leaps. One consciously partakes of what some term "soul", but as we view the physical world, this is seen from the vantage point of the world the soul sees itself residing in. I dare say that view of reality dwarfs physical reality to the point of virtual inconsequence when comparrisons are made.

I can't speak for Seyorni, of course, even though I have great respect for his thinking, however "self" morphs, through the experience of Oneness, to include All That Is. As One perceives, so one is a part; both creator and created. Think here of holding two mirror towards each other and imagine self reflected endlessly in those mirror. The image goes on infinitely in both directions.

As far as reincarnation goes, people are not generally used to thinking that time exists in a "spacious present" and because time is relative to the observer, imho, all incarnations are simultaneous, existing within their own "present". In my experience "karma" is little more than an autocorrecting "law" of "reality" reacting to any given actions. The notion of a cosmic chequebook is simply incorrect as "karma" does not follow one around like a shadow of ones past actions.

In effect, each aspect (incarnation) of the "host" entity exists in its own present. The experience of the whole self or entity also exists in its own sense of the "present", but includes all its various incarnations in that, much like we have the memories of our childhood in our day to day awareness.

 

[Valjean]

Bingo! :yes: