Question about the Norse, Heathenry and Ásatrú DIRs

[Breathe]

What is the difference between these DIRs:

Heathenry
Ásatrú
Norse Mythology

Are the three distinct somehow on RF? I've always considered Heathenry = Ása/Vanatrú = Norse recon

Would it be better, in your opinion as an adherent, to have them merged into one DIR so it can be more active? Why or why not?


Thanks.

 

[Mata]

Personally, I think the Asatru & Heathenry DIR's should definitely be merged. Since Asatru is simply a more specific form of Heathenry, but not specific enough to constitute a major difference in discussion.

As for the Norse Mythology one, I don't mind either way. But considering the discussion of myth is central to much of Heathenry, I do think it may be a good idea to have them all merged; as you said, more traffic

 

[Breathe]

That's what I was thinking.

Heathenry seems to be used as another, more catch-all term for Ásatrú (for example, I suppose Heathenry would include Vanatrú, Odinism, etc) after all - but I was wondering if there was a nuanced subtlety I was missing out.

The only thing I had a slight concern about was Norse mythology - I was wondering if this would be more applicable a section for the discussion of ancient stories and their interpretations then versus the way Heathenry is practised now - for example, discussing blóts of the Viking age, so that the blóts of the modern age are not kept - but even then, it seems like this could be done with them all merged.

I'm tempted to make a poll and ask the Heathens here.

 

[darkstar]

Yes and no. Heathen is a term used by those who are in Asatru instead of the catchall term Pagan.

However, Heathenry can be used for any of the ancient European religions. This could be anything from Norse Pagan ways, to the more Animistic forms of ancient religion found in other parts of Europe. Thus to combine them would be a disservice to those who don't follow the Aesir/Vanir.

I understand why you would think that they are one in the same, but the aren't. Now you know, and knowing is half the battle. (G.I. Joooooooooe!)

 

[Breathe]

However, Heathenry can be used for any of the ancient European religions. This could be anything from Norse Pagan ways, to the more Animistic forms of ancient religion found in other parts of Europe.

See, this is the first time I've heard this. I've never heard any other Pagan groups call themselves Heathen, other than the followers of the Æsir and Vanir (maybe the Rökkatrú do, as well - but I've never met any Rökkatrúar). Is it often used by them, or is it just a courtesy extended to them?

If Heathenry is for all European Pagan groups, is there any need for this DIR on the forum, or would the European religions DIR, etc, count? Is the distinction between Heathen/European, Ásatrú/Norse mythology necessary, in your eyes?

 

[Mata]

See, this is the first time I've heard this. I've never heard any other Pagan groups call themselves Heathen, other than the followers of the Æsir and Vanir (maybe the Rökkatrú do, as well - but I've never met any Rökkatrúar). Is it often used by them, or is it just a courtesy extended to them?

If Heathenry is for all European Pagan groups, is there any need for this DIR on the forum, or would the European religions DIR, etc, count? Is the distinction between Heathen/European, Ásatrú/Norse mythology necessary, in your eyes?

Honestly, the only time I have heard other 'pagans' call themselves Heathens (on a similar regular basis) would be Finnish pagans, and maybe Slavic polytheists? I have also seen some Celtic recons call themselves Gaelic Heathens.

But "Heathen" in general is mostly accepted (to my knowledge, anyway) to mean recon-oriented Germanic paganism (Theodism, Asatru, Forn Sid, and all the others I can't name).

As for the Rokkatru and even Vanatru, many tend to not call themselves Heathen because their practices tend to be non-mainstream or eclectic, and since Heathenry is dominated by the above, most shun, or avoid the heathen label and go with Northern Pagan, Norse Pagan, or say they follow the Northern Tradition.

just my thoughts.

 

[darkstar]

See, this is the first time I've heard this. I've never heard any other Pagan groups call themselves Heathen, other than the followers of the Æsir and Vanir (maybe the Rökkatrú do, as well - but I've never met any Rökkatrúar). Is it often used by them, or is it just a courtesy extended to them?

If Heathenry is for all European Pagan groups, is there any need for this DIR on the forum, or would the European religions DIR, etc, count? Is the distinction between Heathen/European, Ásatrú/Norse mythology necessary, in your eyes?

Eh, as far as the distinction between the Heathen thread and European Religions DIR I honestly wouldn't care much. But there are some that probably would. Just like if you take sub forums for Judaism, Christianity, and Islam and lump them all as Abrahamic religion... many wouldn't care but some would.

As I said, I don't care personally. And we are definitely a minority, so I don't foresee any major problems coming from lack of distinction yet, though there are many coming to the Heathen paths as of late. But the main problem would come from the fact that Heathenry being lumped in with European Religion DIR specifically would likely mean we would be swallowed up and brushed under the rug, hurried under mounds of threads about Druidry.

Just my initial thoughts.

 

[Duck]

I could accept merging the separate threads into one or two threads. I think that the Norse Mythology thread should remain a separate thread, while the other two likely could merge in some manner. What matter would be most satisfactory to others, I am not sure, but truthfully, it doesn't matter to me which is the high level thread (I assume that one or the other would remain a sub-dir within the higher level page).

 

[Breathe]

I could accept merging the separate threads into one or two threads. I think that the Norse Mythology thread should remain a separate thread, while the other two likely could merge in some manner. What matter would be most satisfactory to others, I am not sure, but truthfully, it doesn't matter to me which is the high level thread (I assume that one or the other would remain a sub-dir within the higher level page).

Do you think something like this:

Heathenry (main DIR)
Ásatrú (a subset DIR)
Norse mythology (subset DIR/ merged with Ásatrú DIR)?

Something like that?

 

[darkstar]

Do you think something like this:

Heathenry (main DIR)
Ásatrú (a subset DIR)
Norse mythology (subset DIR/ merged with Ásatrú DIR)?

Something like that?

I know it wasn't directed at me specifically, but I could see putting Asatru and Norse mythology as sub threads under Heathenry since they are categories of Heathenry itself.

 

[Duck]

I was thinking along the lines of: Heathenry -> Ásatrú with Norse Mythology as its own stand alone. there is good general information that folks with questions regarding the Norse Pantheon could find informative/useful that would be more difficult to locate were it buried within a different directory.

 

[darkstar]

I was thinking along the lines of: Heathenry -> Ásatrú with Norse Mythology as its own stand alone. there is good general information that folks with questions regarding the Norse Pantheon could find informative/useful that would be more difficult to locate were it buried within a different directory.

True, but the proposed action of merging threads or getting rid of a separate Heathenry thread could mean people wanting to talk about Finnish or Sami spirituality would be unable to do so efficiently. It just so happens that I am studying these particular branches of Heathenry and may have things to say on it in the future, why would we take the diversity of the thread away in the interest of limiting clutter? It seems like it could cause more problems than helping. I think that if we do ANYTHING it should be this:

Take the Asatru thread and do away with it. Asatru is a part of Heathenry. There isn't enough Heathens on this forum right now, and I can see combining threads. However since there are multiple Heathen paths, and Asatru is only one of them, we should just leave it under Heathenry and be done with it. I'm sure that Heathens in general should he smart enough to see a Heathenry thread and figure out that is where to post about their religion and mythology.

 

[Breathe]

I was thinking along the lines of: Heathenry -> Ásatrú with Norse Mythology as its own stand alone.

That's what I was trying to say; sorry if I wasn't clear enough

 

[Breathe]

True, but the proposed action of merging threads or getting rid of a separate Heathenry thread could mean people wanting to talk about Finnish or Sami spirituality would be unable to do so efficiently.

That's a possibility. How do you think this could be fixed?

However, what about the Vanatrúar? That's what comes to my mind. What if someone wants to talk about, for example, How Vanatrúar interpret the Æsir, for example? It seems odd to put that in the Ásatrú DIR.

Are there many Finnish and Saami recons out there? Also, does Heathenry also extend to Estonian recon?

Sorry to ask so many questions

 

[darkstar]

That's a possibility. How do you think this could be fixed?

However, what about the Vanatrúar? That's what comes to my mind. What if someone wants to talk about, for example, How Vanatrúar interpret the Æsir, for example? It seems odd to put that in the Ásatrú DIR.

Are there many Finnish and Saami recons out there? Also, does Heathenry also extend to Estonian recon?

Sorry to ask so many questions

Actually the Saami wouldn't be part of a reconstruction religion, as their culture and religion are pretty well intact. But they fall under Heathenry.
Anyone worshiping the Vanir, are also under Heathenry.

As I said before, Heathenry is an umbrella term for any religion of Europe that is Pre-Christian. This means any reconstructed religion as well. Thus my reasoning for suggesting that if any thread is kept it should be the Heathenry thread over Asatru.

All Asatruar are Heathen. Not all Heathens are Asatru. It just makes more sense to put it all under a Heathenry thread if you absolutely MUST consolidate threads.

 

[Breathe]

Wow, I didn't know the Saami had kept their religion. Congrats to them. Do you know what helped that stay along?

The Heathen = European Pagan is something quite new to me, still. Is that something always used, or do many use it the way I've understand it? Or have I just met odd people?

I've never seen any other groups calling themselves Heathen other than followers of the Æsir and the Vanir; I've always seen them referred to as "Pagan" by themselves, never Heathen. Is it common, or am I just strange that I've missed that out? Wouldn't surprise me.

Do you feel "Heathen" would just be another term for "Pagan" as a whole? Is it only European, or could it extend beyond there? For example, is an adherent of Armenian recon a Heathen? What about a follower of a pre-Abrahamic Western Asian religion?


Thanks

 

[darkstar]

Wow, I didn't know the Saami had kept their religion. Congrats to them. Do you know what helped that stay along?

The Heathen = European Pagan is something quite new to me, still. Is that something always used, or do many use it the way I've understand it? Or have I just met odd people?

I've never seen any other groups calling themselves Heathen other than followers of the Æsir and the Vanir; I've always seen them referred to as "Pagan" by themselves, never Heathen. Is it common, or am I just strange that I've missed that out? Wouldn't surprise me.

Do you feel "Heathen" would just be another term for "Pagan" as a whole? Is it only European, or could it extend beyond there? For example, is an adherent of Armenian recon a Heathen? What about a follower of a pre-Abrahamic Western Asian religion?


Thanks

The Saami have kept their culture alive by isolating themselves mostly from everything that I've read.

The Northern European religions usually use Heathen because of the desire to stand out from other Pagan groups.

It isn't surprising that you have learned the term of Heathen to mean "Asatru" because to be honest there are a LOT more followers of the Aesir than other Northern European Pagans in the modern world. But that doesn't mean that there aren't others. Most commonly I've found others that are reconstructing the Finnish religious beliefs.

Either way, my point stands. Just because you feel Asatru should be a main thread doesn't make it so. That would be like saying (As I stated before) That under the Abrahamic Religion thread that we should put Christianity as the main thread. Or Judaism. Or Putting Islam DIR as the main thread. It would offend some, and confuse others. But if you put all of them under Abrahamic Religions DIR and left it at that, most people would still know where to place their topics.

I'm not trying to be standoffish or attack anyone. Look up Germanic Neopaganism on Wikipedia. It explains it somewhat.

 

[Breathe]

I've read the Germanic Neopaganism Wiki times. It was that article, this part, which prompted me to ask.

"Starting in the late 90s, the word Heathenism or Heathenry has gradually been accepted as an blanket term for the all the Germanic Neopagan movements,[5] while other terms have developed into labels for specific cultural branches or denominations within Heathenry. For example Forn Siðr and its equivalents has become a popular self-designation in the Norse Neopagan milieu, while Urglaawe defines the Deitch Heathen movement."

However, it seems you disapprove of the term Heathenry to refer to it because it would exclude other European religions, which makes sense if it's used as that because would be too broad a term. If the term Heathen seems to be out of bounds, what would you suggest for a "Norse-specific" but "non-denominational" approach? Forn Siðr?

Reason is, simply, that I wonder how many threads go to the Norse mythology DIR that are relevant to, say, modern Ásatrú and Vanatrú.

As you've said, there aren't many followers of the Æsir and Vanir here - but there's two/three DIRs with somewhat blurry lines, hence my asking if there's a way you guys feel it could be more efficient, if it could.

 

[darkstar]

I've read the Germanic Neopaganism Wiki times. It was that article, this part, which prompted me to ask.

"Starting in the late 90s, the word Heathenism or Heathenry has gradually been accepted as an blanket term for the all the Germanic Neopagan movements,[5] while other terms have developed into labels for specific cultural branches or denominations within Heathenry. For example Forn Siðr and its equivalents has become a popular self-designation in the Norse Neopagan milieu, while Urglaawe defines the Deitch Heathen movement."

However, it seems you disapprove of the term Heathenry to refer to it because it would exclude other European religions, which makes sense if it's used as that because would be too broad a term. If the term Heathen seems to be out of bounds, what would you suggest for a "Norse-specific" but "non-denominational" approach? Forn Siðr?

Reason is, simply, that I wonder how many threads go to the Norse mythology DIR that are relevant to, say, modern Ásatrú and Vanatrú.

As you've said, there aren't many followers of the Æsir and Vanir here - but there's two/three DIRs with somewhat blurry lines, hence my asking if there's a way you guys feel it could be more efficient, if it could.

I think there may been a cross in communication somewhere. I'm perfectly fine with the threads being condensed and put under "Heathenism" completely. I was trying to state that I was fine with this. I was only saying that we shouldn't put it as "Asatru" or anything because there are other forms of Germanic Paganism than Asatru.

 

[Breathe]

I think there may been a cross in communication somewhere. I'm perfectly fine with the threads being condensed and put under "Heathenism" completely. I was trying to state that I was fine with this. I was only saying that we shouldn't put it as "Asatru" or anything because there are other forms of Germanic Paganism than Asatru.

Ah; that's what I've been trying to say as well.

+Heathenry DIR
-Sub DIR: Germanic Paganism, which would include a DIR to discuss Ásatrú, Vanatrú, Fyrnsidu, etc in one place, without just being limited to one of them, but not including other European Pagan groups?

The way the DIRs are in this section look a bit, well, messy to me. Just trying to help out.