Question for Christians from a Godless Atheist

[GodlessHeathen]

Hello Christians,

I would preferably like to limit the responses in this thread to Christians themselves because the question will not make much sense to those of other faiths, but I certainly won't deny anyone else from participating. I have added a poll for a shortened version of the question without the backgrounder in the quotes.

Recall the story of Abraham. Abraham was old and so the prospects of children were slim to none. But God had promised him children if he were to move to Canaan, which Abraham faithfully does without question. Isaac is born and Abraham is overjoyed. Then one day, out of the blue, God pops down from the clouds and tests Abraham's faith by commanding him to knife his precious son and sacrifice him as a burnt offering. Again, without question, Abraham takes Isaac up a hill (even making Isaac carry the wood for his own funeral pyre), ties him up, and then is about to knife his precious son when at the last minute God comes back down from the clouds and says "You've passed the test, mate."

Now the moral objection I have here is not mitigated by the fact that God comes back down at the last minute and stops the human sacrifice ritual that He Himself had requested. It isn't the fact that He must have put Abraham through mental anguish at the thought of having to kill his own son in cold blood. It isn't even the fear that must have been in Isaac's heart as he was tied up and seconds away from being knifed by his own father. My question is: If you were in Abraham's position, that is, if you were 100% certain that God was talking to you (and you were not hallucinating or suffering from mental illness) and God commanded you to prove your faith and love for Him by killing your children in cold blood, would you do it?

It may surprise the reader to know but my girlfriend is a right-wing Mennonite Christian. I'm a left-wing godless atheist. We get along somehow. I asked her this question and also asked her if she thought her father would be capable of killing her if he thought God commanded it. Her response was that while she believes her father would say he would kill her if he sincerely believed God commanded it (a scary thought, no doubt), she does not believe he would actually be capable of it.

Now this is pretty much a "yes or no" question. If your answer to the question is "No, I would not kill my child if God commanded it." then you clearly value your family over any higher power. If your answer is "Yes, I would kill my child if God commanded it." then the discussion gets a bit more interesting.

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

Hello Christians,

I would preferably like to limit the responses in this thread to Christians themselves because the question will not make much sense to those of other faiths, but I certainly won't deny anyone else from participating. I have added a poll for a shortened version of the question without the backgrounder in the quotes.



It may surprise the reader to know but my girlfriend is a right-wing Mennonite Christian. I'm a left-wing godless atheist. We get along somehow. I asked her this question and also asked her if she thought her father would be capable of killing her if he thought God commanded it. Her response was that while she believes her father would say he would kill her if he sincerely believed God commanded it (a scary thought, no doubt), she does not believe he would actually be capable of it.

Now this is pretty much a "yes or no" question. If your answer to the question is "No, I would not kill my child if God commanded it." then you clearly value your family over any higher power. If your answer is "Yes, I would kill my child if God commanded it." then the discussion gets a bit more interesting.

Sacrifice daughter to religious practice no literally wow

 

[Thana]

Hello Christians,

I would preferably like to limit the responses in this thread to Christians themselves because the question will not make much sense to those of other faiths, but I certainly won't deny anyone else from participating. I have added a poll for a shortened version of the question without the backgrounder in the quotes.



It may surprise the reader to know but my girlfriend is a right-wing Mennonite Christian. I'm a left-wing godless atheist. We get along somehow. I asked her this question and also asked her if she thought her father would be capable of killing her if he thought God commanded it. Her response was that while she believes her father would say he would kill her if he sincerely believed God commanded it (a scary thought, no doubt), she does not believe he would actually be capable of it.

Now this is pretty much a "yes or no" question. If your answer to the question is "No, I would not kill my child if God commanded it." then you clearly value your family over any higher power. If your answer is "Yes, I would kill my child if God commanded it." then the discussion gets a bit more interesting.

I think Abraham was the only one who was asked to do this, so that we could learn from Him. The point is supposed to be that God is first, above yourself and hard as it may appear to be, above your loved ones and family.
But if you want me to do a yes or no, then my answer would be 'Ideally, yes'. I would like to be the kind of person who would sacrifice what I love most for my Lord.

And what's scary, to me, is faithlessness. So I guess we're even?

 

[GodlessHeathen]

I think Abraham was the only one who was asked to do this, so that we could learn from Him. The point is supposed to be that God is first, above yourself and hard as it may appear to be, above your loved ones and family.
But if you want me to do a yes or no, then my answer would be 'Ideally, yes'. I would like to be the kind of person who would sacrifice what I love most for my Lord.

And what's scary, to me, is faithlessness. So I guess we're even?

The point of the question was not how likely it is you would be asked to do it. It is a hypothetical. If we take the Bible as being true (a big stretch for an atheist like myself, but I'm willing to play along), then we know it happened at least once. We know that God is capable of giving out such an order because He has.

But thank you for answering the question honestly. So you would like to be the kind of person who would sacrifice what you love most for your Lord. It is your ideal situation that, if commanded by God, you would sacrifice your child. The corollary of this question is: Do you think a God that orders the death of an innocent child by the hand of his parent is a moral and loving one? Why do you, I presume, derive your morals from such a God?

Faithlessness in comparison to such a God seems rather tame and far more preferable in my eyes. It is a big part of the reason why that even if such a God could be demonstrated to exist, I still would not follow it. I am morally superior to the God of the Bible, even with all my faults and flaws.

 

[Thana]

The point of the question was not how likely it is you would be asked to do it. It is a hypothetical. If we take the Bible as being true (a big stretch for an atheist like myself, but I'm willing to play along), then we know it happened at least once. We know that God is capable of giving out such an order because He has.

But thank you for answering the question honestly. So you would like to be the kind of person who would sacrifice what you love most for your Lord. It is your ideal situation that, if commanded by God, you would sacrifice your child. The corollary of this question is: Do you think a God that orders the death of an innocent child by the hand of his parent is a moral and loving one? Why do you, I presume, derive your morals from such a God?

Faithlessness in comparison to such a God seems rather tame and far more preferable in my eyes. It is a big part of the reason why that even if such a God could be demonstrated to exist, I still would not follow it. I am morally superior to the God of the Bible, even with all my faults and flaws.

God isn't moral. He's better than that.

And innocent children die every day. Right now as you're reading this some innocent child somewhere just died. We are born to die. So I don't consider life to be worth more than God, since He's the one that gave it in the first place. Just because all you have is life doesn't mean everyone else has to be shackled to it. Nor should I be beholden to your idea of morality, since your morality isn't even yours. Someone else taught it to you, And if you were born elsewhere, you'd probably have a completely different set of morals. Morality is fickle.

So yes, you are morally superior to God. And honestly, I'm glad for that. Because my God never changes, He is constant. Morality is like the wind, it blows this way and that. So congratulations, you're morally superior. For now. In about a hundred years people will probably look back and consider your idea of morality as barbaric.

 

[GodlessHeathen]

Your morality is not constant either. As you've clearly demonstrated by your honest replies (for which I am most thankful for you directly answering the question and not dancing around it), whatever you believe God says to be moral, is moral. If God says today that eating cake is moral and tomorrow it is immoral, you would be compelled to believe that without question. God can and does clearly change His mind. After all, He commands Abraham to kill his son, but whispers to Moses "Thou shalt not kill". Then commands the Israelites to slaughter a few of their neighbours. He's hot and He's cold, He's yes and He's no. Or something like that. You know...Katy Perry.

If God were to pop down from the clouds and command you to rape a child, in your mind, that would be moral. If God were to pop down from the clouds and command you to commit mass genocide, in your mind, that would be the right thing to do. Like Abraham, you wouldn't pause for a minute to consider the harm you are causing to others (even to those you personally know and love) because you would blinded by the confusing and maniacal demands of your God. Morality isn't nearly as wishy-washy as you make it out to be. There is never a circumstance where ordering a father to kill his son for the reason of "prove your loyalty to me" is moral or "the right thing to do" and I guarantee you they'll not only still think that in 100 years, but even in 1000 years should humans survive it.

Why on Earth you would choose to base your morality unquestioningly on such an objectionable figure is beyond me.

 

[Sees]

The 3 votes already submitted not being from Christians =

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Hello Christians,

I would preferably like to limit the responses in this thread to Christians themselves because the question will not make much sense to those of other faiths, but I certainly won't deny anyone else from participating. I have added a poll for a shortened version of the question without the backgrounder in the quotes.



It may surprise the reader to know but my girlfriend is a right-wing Mennonite Christian. I'm a left-wing godless atheist. We get along somehow. I asked her this question and also asked her if she thought her father would be capable of killing her if he thought God commanded it. Her response was that while she believes her father would say he would kill her if he sincerely believed God commanded it (a scary thought, no doubt), she does not believe he would actually be capable of it.

Now this is pretty much a "yes or no" question. If your answer to the question is "No, I would not kill my child if God commanded it." then you clearly value your family over any higher power. If your answer is "Yes, I would kill my child if God commanded it." then the discussion gets a bit more interesting.

I have a strong feeling christians would sacrifice their child if god demanded it to test their faith.

If they believe god is a god of love, why wouldnt they offer their child?

If they find it hard to answer the question, Maybe they are unsure of god's commans being good. Their good moral nature is conflicting with the sentence of death.

How many christians would sacrifice their lives to god and go to hell to save their only child if god so demannded it?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I think Abraham was the only one who was asked to do this, so that we could learn from Him. The point is supposed to be that God is first, above yourself and hard as it may appear to be, above your loved ones and family.
But if you want me to do a yes or no, then my answer would be 'Ideally, yes'. I would like to be the kind of person who would sacrifice what I love most for my Lord.

And what's scary, to me, is faithlessness. So I guess we're even?

So... anyone who can convince you that they speak for God can persuade you to commit atrocities?

 

[jeager106]

So... anyone who can convince you that they speak for God can persuade you to commit atrocities?

Anyone claiming to speak for God is suspect in my opinion.
To listen to someone who "speaks for God" has a weak mind and is easily lead.
Anyone claiming to speak for God to involve others in committing
atrocities is a CRIMINAL.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

No one should do that. If God wants them dead He can do it Himself.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Anyone claiming to speak for God is suspect in my opinion.

Didn't Jesus speak for God? Do you consider Jesus suspect?

To listen to someone who "speaks for God" has a weak mind and is easily lead.
Anyone claiming to speak for God to involve others in committing
atrocities is a CRIMINAL.

That might be, but are you saying that this implies they weren't really sent by God?

The Old Testament has several stories of Moses getting instructions from God to commit atrocities against rival groups, which Moses duly relayed to the Israelites. Do you consider Moses a criminal?

 

[Thana]

So... anyone who can convince you that they speak for God can persuade you to commit atrocities?

No.
I didn't say if someone told me 'God said this....'
That wasn't the question. The question was if God Himself told you something directly.

 

[Thana]

Your morality is not constant either. As you've clearly demonstrated by your honest replies (for which I am most thankful for you directly answering the question and not dancing around it), whatever you believe God says to be moral, is moral. If God says today that eating cake is moral and tomorrow it is immoral, you would be compelled to believe that without question. God can and does clearly change His mind. After all, He commands Abraham to kill his son, but whispers to Moses "Thou shalt not kill". Then commands the Israelites to slaughter a few of their neighbours. He's hot and He's cold, He's yes and He's no. Or something like that. You know...Katy Perry.

If God were to pop down from the clouds and command you to rape a child, in your mind, that would be moral. If God were to pop down from the clouds and command you to commit mass genocide, in your mind, that would be the right thing to do. Like Abraham, you wouldn't pause for a minute to consider the harm you are causing to others (even to those you personally know and love) because you would blinded by the confusing and maniacal demands of your God. Morality isn't nearly as wishy-washy as you make it out to be. There is never a circumstance where ordering a father to kill his son for the reason of "prove your loyalty to me" is moral or "the right thing to do" and I guarantee you they'll not only still think that in 100 years, but even in 1000 years should humans survive it.

Why on Earth you would choose to base your morality unquestioningly on such an objectionable figure is beyond me.

You're assuming a lot of things about me. Things that haven't even been mentioned in this thread. My faith is my faith, but don't think I'm unquestioning. Quite the opposite really, I question everything. Jesus, Creation, The Law, all of it.

He's God. What applies to us does not and should not apply to Him. And I am, unfortunately, not like Abraham. I'm weak, And I fairly highly doubt I'd be as faithful as you think. Like I said, Ideally yes I want to be that person but that doesn't mean I am. I think until we're actually faced with these hypotheticals we'll never really know how we'll react to them.

And it was never about Abraham proving His loyalty, It was supposed to be a teaching for us. That's why it's in the bible. And I don't care a fig about what the right thing to do is, because morality is such a stupid thing to be shackled too. If I were going to bind my life to a set of rules than I'd rather them be from God than from man.

 

[viole]

Hello Christians,

I would preferably like to limit the responses in this thread to Christians themselves because the question will not make much sense to those of other faiths, but I certainly won't deny anyone else from participating. I have added a poll for a shortened version of the question without the backgrounder in the quotes.



It may surprise the reader to know but my girlfriend is a right-wing Mennonite Christian. I'm a left-wing godless atheist. We get along somehow. I asked her this question and also asked her if she thought her father would be capable of killing her if he thought God commanded it. Her response was that while she believes her father would say he would kill her if he sincerely believed God commanded it (a scary thought, no doubt), she does not believe he would actually be capable of it.

Now this is pretty much a "yes or no" question. If your answer to the question is "No, I would not kill my child if God commanded it." then you clearly value your family over any higher power. If your answer is "Yes, I would kill my child if God commanded it." then the discussion gets a bit more interesting.

I think the main question is: how do we know it is really God asking?

For instance, I am sure Satan could be pretty good at impersonating God, being the Ultimate deceiver, considering also that God does not have an Id or some easy ways to be identified.

Ciao

- viole

 

[GodlessHeathen]

No one should do that. If God wants them dead He can do it Himself.

While I find it encouraging that you don't think anyone should kill their child for this reason, the question was asking specifically if God asked you directly to do something that would be immoral such as killing your child. Or are you saying that you wouldn't trust such communication to be genuinely from God? That you would think you're hallucinating or possibly suffering from a mental illness if you started hearing voices and seeing lights and all that?

I think the main question is: how do we know it is really God asking?

For instance, I am sure Satan could be pretty good at impersonating God, being the Ultimate deceiver, considering also that God does not have an Id or some easy ways to be identified.

Ciao

- viole

So how do we even know it was God, not Satan, talking to Abraham in this story? Or any other Biblical story? Nonetheless, the question was a hypothetical and it assumed that you had the means to discern that you were with 100% certainty speaking with God. So for the purposes of this hypothetical, that uncertainty isn't there.

You're assuming a lot of things about me. Things that haven't even been mentioned in this thread. My faith is my faith, but don't think I'm unquestioning. Quite the opposite really, I question everything. Jesus, Creation, The Law, all of it.

He's God. What applies to us does not and should not apply to Him. And I am, unfortunately, not like Abraham. I'm weak, And I fairly highly doubt I'd be as faithful as you think. Like I said, Ideally yes I want to be that person but that doesn't mean I am. I think until we're actually faced with these hypotheticals we'll never really know how we'll react to them.

And it was never about Abraham proving His loyalty, It was supposed to be a teaching for us. That's why it's in the bible. And I don't care a fig about what the right thing to do is, because morality is such a stupid thing to be shackled too. If I were going to bind my life to a set of rules than I'd rather them be from God than from man.

Absolutely, you're right, I did presume a few things (and said as much). If I was incorrect or have gone too far with those presumptions, I offer my sincere apologies and retractions. So if I have this correct, you would ideally like to human sacrifice your child to God if you believe He so commanded it, but owing to your human weaknesses, you doubt you'd be able to actually carry it out? If that is correct, and please let me know if it's wrong, at least that is in my opinion better than what I had initially interpreted from your replies. The fact that you doubt your capacity to kill your own child shows some humanity. But that you still think it ideal to be able to carry out a cold blooded murder and inflict pain and death upon your own offspring for your God is worrying, to say the least.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I think the main question is: how do we know it is really God asking? For instance, I am sure Satan could be pretty good at impersonating God, being the Ultimate deceiver, considering also that God does not have an Id or some easy ways to be identified.

Interesting point.

 

[Thana]

Absolutely, you're right, I did presume a few things (and said as much). If I was incorrect or have gone too far with those presumptions, I offer my sincere apologies and retractions. So if I have this correct, you would ideally like to human sacrifice your child to God if you believe He so commanded it, but owing to your human weaknesses, you doubt you'd be able to actually carry it out? If that is correct, and please let me know if it's wrong, at least that is in my opinion better than what I had initially interpreted from your replies. The fact that you doubt your capacity to kill your own child shows some humanity. But that you still think it ideal to be able to carry out a cold blooded murder and inflict pain and death upon your own offspring for your God is worrying, to say the least.

Yes, you've got the gist of it. Except I don't really care for being more human, because humans are terrible creatures.

And the point isn't killing your child, the point is whether or not you are willing to give up everything you have for God. Everything including your sense of morality, your ideals, your relationships and even your self. Absolutely everything.
Clearly you don't have anything worth that kind of sacrifice so you can't understand.

You're much too hung up on the killing child part. God didn't even let him go through with it for goodness sake.

 

[johnhanks]

You're much too hung up on the killing child part. God didn't even let him go through with it for goodness sake.

... though if you believe Judges 11 he seemed happy enough to let Jephthah burn his daughter for him.

 

[Thana]

... though if you believe Judges 11 he seemed happy enough to let Jephthah burn his daughter for him.

God didn't ask it of him.
And the bible warns against vows to God. He shouldn't have done it.

Now what I don't get is why his daughter seemed more upset about her virginity than dying, but I digress.