Question for Jews

[Rick O'Shez]

What have I started here? Am I missing something?

They have gone all religious and lost the spirit of humbuggery - ooops, wrong thread, sorry.

 

[Tumah]

What difference it makes, he shows his love to the wall by kissing it or licking it
as to be closer to God, the others will only kiss it, craziness in all cases.

Because if you read what I wrote, then you will see that I said that we don't kiss the wall or other holy objects to show love for G-d. I said we show appreciation for the job it performs in facilitating being closer to G-d. If you don't understand what that means you can say, "can you explain what that means?" instead of ignoring the words that you don't understand to create a new sentence.

It means that we believe that G-d is everywhere and the world is like a mask that blocks us from coming close to Him. Our struggle is to push away the mask and reveal G-d. There are some places or objects that the mask is thinner and already have some greater degree of revelation of G-d so it is easier for us to connect to Him.
Kissing the item doesn't make one become closer to G-d. Kissing the item is an expression of appreciation for the help that the item is providing as a place where one can connect to G-d and as a show of respect for the greater degree of revelation in that place. It can also be an expression of desire to connect to the greater degree of revelation of G-d in that place. Kissing the object is not because the object is G-d, represents G-d, or needs some type of service in its own right. All those things would be idol worship.

From your previous comments here, I really don't expect you to be able to understand what I'm saying. From the looks of you and many of your brothers here, Islam is the religion of memorization, not of critical analysis of new information. But at least it might be a good explanation for non-Muslims.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Peace to all
That was a good question you asked.so don't worry about where its heading.
Its all about a man made wall called "western wall" nick named wailing wall.
Questions
Why do Jews wail at the wall?
What makes a retaining wall,built by Herod the great,holy?
What is the significance of putting pieces of paper inside the cracks of the wall?

 

[Tumah]

Its all about a man made wall called "western wall" nick named wailing wall.
Questions
Why do Jews wail at the wall?

We pray there the same as we do in a synagogue. Its the closest we can get to where the Temple was, and all the synagogues are modeled after the Temple. So this is the best synagogue of all of them.

What makes a retaining wall,built by Herod the great,holy?

It doesn't matter who built it. It matters what it was. It is the last remaining wall that surrounded the House of G-d. In G-d's House, G-d's presence is more revealed and by extension it is more holy. So this wall as part of that structure retains some degree of holiness.

What is the significance of putting pieces of paper inside the cracks of the wall?

To the best of my knowledge, there is no source for doing so. It may even be problematic according to Jewish Law and from what I've seen, pretty much the only people who do so are people who are not knowledgeable about Jewish Law.
Wikipedia quotes a rabbi saying that the practice started because a kabbalist once instructed a person to place a certain type of amulet in the wall. These amulets are not prayers, but I guess people who saw someone sticking a folded up piece of paper in the wall thought that's what he was doing and the practice spread.

 

[Eliab ben Benjamin]

I answered that but it isn't my problem if you can't get my point.

Our relation with God isn't by a fixed place, a wall or a stone, if it makes
sense to you and to some Muslims then that doesn't mean it should
make sense to me.

What if an earthquake destroyed the western wall? will you keep the stones
and keep praying on the ruined wall?

Possibly, however we would rather hope it gave us back our Temple Mount to rebuild.

 

[Tumah]

What if an earthquake destroyed the western wall? will you keep the stones
and keep praying on the ruined wall?

That's actually a good question. Mazal Tov.

If that were to happen G-d forbid, I think we would clear the rubble of the wall to make it safe and still try to pray there because its still a holy place by virtue of the Temple that was there. The reason why we specifically pray at that wall (besides for the fact that its the only one standing) is because it has a special holiness and because it is the closest we are allowed to go to the area where the Temple was, which is the holiest place. So if the wall is missing and the first reason is lacking, there is still the second reason.

 

[faroukfarouk]

So from what I am reading the wall itself is not holy.The Jews pray at the area because its the closest to where the Temple use to be.
Now all those who cry at the wall,kiss the wall and put papers inside the cracks of the wall are all misguided in the faith.In other words they have strayed from the true path and doomed.
Now keeping in mind that Harod built this Wall how you as a Jew know that the Temple was behind this Wall.

 

[Tumah]

So from what I am reading the wall itself is not holy.

The wall itself is holy as well. Jewish sources say that the Divine Presence never left that wall.

The Jews pray at the area because its the closest to where the Temple use to be.

Also, not only.

Now all those who cry at the wall,

Crying at the wall, means crying to G-d next to the wall. They aren't crying to the wall. Its like an open-air synagogue. People cry in the synagogue too.

kiss the wall

Kissing the wall, is a way of showing respect to the holiness of the place and expressing a desire to be close to the holiness. Its not wrong, so long as the person intends this.

and put papers inside the cracks of the wall are all misguided in the faith.In other words they have strayed from the true path and doomed.

Putting papers in the cracks is probably wrong, but that doesn't mean the people who do so are doomed. They're just making a mistake, not doing it intentionally.

Now keeping in mind that Harod built this Wall how you as a Jew know that the Temple was behind this Wall.

Herod built the Second Temple. Its sometimes called Herod's Temple. There are still structures existing today from that time period
There have been Jews living in Israel continuously since the building of the Second Temple until today. There was never any doubt about where the Temple stood, unlike other less important structures. It has always been an integral part of Judaism. I don't think there was ever a time where we didn't know exactly where the Temple stood. Besides for that, we have descriptions of the area and archaeological evidence of it. There is no doubt about it, except maybe from Muslims.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Warning_inscription

 

[faroukfarouk]

So where did Herod actually build the second Temple?

 

[Tumah]

So where did Herod actually build the second Temple?

Underneath alAqsa.
You can read the whole history of the chain of structures that were built on the site here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Mount

 

[faroukfarouk]

Sorry mate i don't trust Wikipedia.
The wall is a retaining wall that Herod built.So was the Temple built on top of Mount or behind wall?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Muslims. Okay. Im not getting how some of you dont understand what Tumah is saying. This is a crude comparison and lack of Muslim knowledge. Remember we are in interfaith so you can correct me and clarify (discussion) but you cant prove me wrong and support your points (debate). So....now that 'we know the difference...

1. Why do Muslims use a matt for prayer, kiss the floor (or making motions to), pray a "specific" direction, and pray in Arabic when

You can worship god in anyway without matts and sense of direction (say someone born deaf/blind wouldnt at first). God can hear you in any language?
​

As soon as you think of a reaaon that has to do with a physical object whether What you face or the matt, you have just placed these objects

As a use NOT in replace of your personal worship. Its not god. Its not loving god. It doesnt replace the Quran. (Right?) However, these things are important as so much you use it in worship. Why?

Clarification and explanation. (Discussion) No debate. Just share your faith. (Interfaith)
​

How is your use of these objects (beads, matt, physical Quran) and actions (prayer postures, kissing the floor, and facing your direction of phraise)

Any different from...

Another person's faith (remember. Interfaith.) where his object is a wall, a Torah, and (guessing to make a point not for perfect accuracy) the types of close he wears and languages he prays in worship?

What about a Muslims use of objects and directions and the meaning behind them differ than that of a Jew?

Not the actual means of worship but the meaning behind it and whats behind the objects and directions Muslims use and turn if not to praise and appreciats god's creation and so forth in one way or another?

Can you see the relationship?

 

[Tumah]

Sorry mate i don't trust Wikipedia.
The wall is a retaining wall that Herod built.So was the Temple built on top of Mount or behind wall?

That's kind of odd, don't you think? Wikipedia is just a compendium. There are 173 sources quoted on that article, so what you're saying is that you don't trust any of the sources. I'm guessing because of some religious problem you have with there being a Jewish Temple on that site...?

The wall is the remainder of the western retaining wall for the Temple that Herod built. Actually, its the very top of the wall and about half of what we can see there was added to it at a later time. Its very obviously different from the lower section. Most of the wall descends very deeply into the ground and over time, the ground got raised higher until only this area is visible.
The Temple was a structure within the retaining wall. Kind of like a rectangle within a square. The Western Wall, is the retaining wall that was directly behind the wall of the Sanctuary part of the Temple, which housed the Holy and Holy of Holies. The Temple was on top of the mountain on the site of the masjid, although the actual structure was much bigger than it. The side that the Jews pray by today, is the outside part of the wall. We are technically praying in the direction of the Sanctuary. So yes, the Temple was built on top of the mountain behind the wall - behind the wall being the side that the masjid is at today.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@Carlita
Having pictures/ religious , or whatever, is fine, but if i was ''bowing'', to an object, like they do kaaba etc, various religions, it would be considered VERY odd, ''wrong'', i guess. even if the object isnt worshipped. its the act of the ''seeming like your doing that', as well,
i know your asking jews the thread question, but decided to answer anyways, since muslims are

I can see that. Ive always worshiped in some ritual form whether from witchcraft from my younger days, christianity (the bible thumping kind) a little later, zen later, and catholicism. All of it had some motion of bowing, using objects, directions (moon cycles and sun rise/set) of prayer.

I dont understand how it could be wrong, though. Id be uncomfortable if a Jew ask me to kiss a wall likewise if a Muslim told me to kiss the floor in this posture. However weird, if their intent isnt against their faith (making the floor/matt and wall an idol) and using them (as we use dinning ware for example) as a means of worship, I dont see that wrong.

Unless their god said "no you cant do the electric side in front of this bush" and you see Jews dancing where the bush stood, then Id say its wrong. But acording to both respective faith, I dont see how not.

Now. I undersrand why some protestants dont understans rituals and tradition in worship even though some of their forms still have tradition. But not a Muslim to a Jew.

/shrugs

Maybe a lot of us (no pun. A lot of us) need to look beyond surface level.

 

[Desert Snake]

I can see that. Ive always worshiped in some ritual form whether from witchcraft from my younger days, christianity (the bible thumping kind) a little later, zen later, and catholicism. All of it had some motion of bowing, using objects, directions (moon cycles and sun rise/set) of prayer.

I dont understand how it could be wrong, though. Id be uncomfortable if a Jew ask me to kiss a wall likewise if a Muslim told me to kiss the floor in this posture. However weird, if their intent isnt against their faith (making the floor/matt and wall an idol) and using them (as we use dinning ware for example) as a means of worship, I dont see that wrong.

Unless their god said "no you cant do the electric side in front of this bush" and you see Jews dancing where the bush stood, then Id say its wrong. But acording to both respective faith, I dont see how not.

Now. I undersrand why some protestants dont understans rituals and tradition in worship even though some of their forms still have tradition. But not a Muslim to a Jew.

/shrugs

Maybe a lot of us (no pun. A lot of us) need to look beyond surface level.

Ehm not really sure what your saying. it is my tradition to not have the bowing, etc. it isn't a lack of tradition.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Ehm not really sure what your saying. it is my tradition to not have the bowing, etc. it isn't a lack of tradition.

The only traditions Im familar that doesnt have bowing I personally know of is modern religions in America. Most major ones, at least and folk ones have a form of reverence whether it be bowing, dance, ritual, or lighting a candle. So I put them in the same category: tradition.

What do you practice? If you told me in another thread, I most likely forgot.

 

[Desert Snake]

The only traditions Im familar that doesnt have bowing I personally know of is modern religions in America. Most major ones, at least and folk ones have a form of reverence whether it be bowing, dance, ritual, or lighting a candle. So I put them in the same category: tradition.

What do you practice? If you told me in another thread, I most likely forgot.

I'm a theist./monotheist. I'm an American, yes. Anyways, it seems that you aren't differentiating any of this stuff, and i do, so i guess that's that, we can agree to ''disagree''

 

[FearGod]

Muslims. Okay. Im not getting how some of you dont understand what Tumah is saying. This is a crude comparison and lack of Muslim knowledge. Remember we are in interfaith so you can correct me and clarify (discussion) but you cant prove me wrong and support your points (debate). So....now that 'we know the difference...

1. Why do Muslims use a matt for prayer, kiss the floor (or making motions to), pray a "specific" direction, and pray in Arabic when

You can worship god in anyway without matts and sense of direction (say someone born deaf/blind wouldnt at first). God can hear you in any language?
​

As soon as you think of a reaaon that has to do with a physical object whether What you face or the matt, you have just placed these objects

As a use NOT in replace of your personal worship. Its not god. Its not loving god. It doesnt replace the Quran. (Right?) However, these things are important as so much you use it in worship. Why?

Clarification and explanation. (Discussion) No debate. Just share your faith. (Interfaith)
​

How is your use of these objects (beads, matt, physical Quran) and actions (prayer postures, kissing the floor, and facing your direction of phraise)

Any different from...

Another person's faith (remember. Interfaith.) where his object is a wall, a Torah, and (guessing to make a point not for perfect accuracy) the types of close he wears and languages he prays in worship?

What about a Muslims use of objects and directions and the meaning behind them differ than that of a Jew?

Not the actual means of worship but the meaning behind it and whats behind the objects and directions Muslims use and turn if not to praise and appreciats god's creation and so forth in one way or another?

Can you see the relationship?

Your main question was about what object the Jews used compared to Christians and Muslims
and we educated you that they use the western wall.

What you are asking now is about the Muslims? I'm confused with your purpose of this thread?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

i practice syncreticism, but not 'universalism', like the U.U.'s.
I'm a theist./monotheist. I don't know what churches you went to, but bowing is something i am not aware of at all. i personally don't have any rituals like that. I'm an American, yes. Again, the standard church rituals are ok, but those afaik don't involve anything like bowing to some building or what not. Lighting a candle, or dancing , is not the same as what is being presented in this thread/for various reasons. Anyways, it seems that you aren't differentiating any of this stuff, and i do, so i guess that's that, we can agree to ''disagree''

I don't know. I notice that I have different definitions then almost everyone on RF. I know there is a level of healthy bias, but I really try not to be bias at all especially in regards to faith. So, licking a wall, although (sorry guys) creepy to me is no different in meaning than my lighting a candle in front of my grandmothers and bowing (which I learned from Catholicism and Buddhism in its sacredness of the word not just genuflect and prostrating). Once you get through the bias of the physical part of the practice then the differences start washing away and it is culture or tradition one with the spiritual belief or moral system one takes up.

It's like I see people trying to separate hugging their mother from saying to her "I love you." Granted, I don't hug my mother much since we didn't get that growing up. Nor the I love you card either. However, when family visit, it was both the physical/verbal and the expression and intimacy (and all that jazz). I don't bow to my elders like other cultures. That's not part of our tradition but I don't see how I would not include that as having the same meaning regardless if I use it or not.

Don't think it's disagreeing, just I'm puzzled.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Your main question was about what object the Jews used compared to Christians and Muslims
and we educated you that they use the western wall.

What you are asking now is about the Muslims? I'm confused with your purpose of this thread?

My original thread asked what did Jews bow to given Catholics (as so corrected) bow to the Eucharist and Muslims (as so corrected) bow towards Kaaba (for point purposes).

Now I see you and Tumah debate over kissing a wall and I think wait, Muslims do the same thing or near the same manner as when you pray and face the floor. You and Jews aren't using the floor/wall as a means to replace god. Nor are you both using the floor/wall as a means to god. I'm sure that Muslims prostrations are for humility and obedience not whether one's face is on the floor or not (the floor itself doesn't matter). Likewise, I'd assume even though the Wall matters to Jews, that doesn't mean their humility and obedience went from going to god to a wall.

Both of you two are in the same boat when using prostrations, directions, objects, locations, etc as part of, means of, and use of your worship. I don't understand how both of you don't see your similarities rather than fuss at your differences.

I wish this was a religious debates section or moved there if there was more a respectful chat over this because there are points in Tumah's posts that are direct and I'm still puzzled how you don't see the similarities in what he is saying and what you believe regardless of your religious belief differences.