Question for JW,s . Is there a mother God ?

[Brian2]

Revelation 3:14....
“And to the angel of the church of Laodicea, write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, who is the beginning of the creation of God”. (Douay)

Colossians 1:14-15.....
“In whom we have redemption through his blood, the remission of sins; Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature”. (Douay)

Read carefully......is the Douay not a Catholic translation?

You are probably like me and not a Greek scholar but I have heard of the partitive genitive as no doubt you have, and that the WT says it applies at Col 1: 15 and that Jesus is therefore part of the creation, or one of the creatures. Other scholars disagree, and especially since "firstborn" cannot mean "first one born" at Col 1:15 because it goes on to say that "through Him ALL things were created" meaning that Jesus cannot have been one of the things created.
However, even if the partitive genitive applies at Col 1:15 it does not have to mean that Jesus was created in order to be part of the creation, it can mean that He is part of the creation because He became a man. He is uncreated in that ALL things were created through Him, but He is part of the creation because He became a man, He stepped into the creation to become a man.

 

[Brian2]

No.
It simply means that the was the first of :Gods creations. He was created in the same form of God...that is as a spirit as were the other angels.

Phil 2:5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God,

"being" in the above quote is a present participle and that means that the prehuman Jesus continued to be in the form of God even while a man.
That is interesting because the WT teaches that humans do not have a spirit.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Whenever I speak with a Jehovah witness the conversation inevitably turns to Colossians 1.15 . Here its insisted upon ,that Jesus is the ' First born ' Literally ? Does this mean literally 'birthed '?

No, it's Mormonism that has the "Mother God" who gave birth to us in spirit form (including Jesus and Satan), not JWs.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

"being" in the above quote is a present participle and that means that the prehuman Jesus continued to be in the form of God even while a man.

Sorry, but no. Continue reading the next verses...

 

[Hockeycowboy]

That is interesting because the WT teaches that humans do not have a spirit.

Wrong again, my cousin. At death, a person’s “spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground.”
— Psalms 146:3-4.

The difference is, you attribute a personality to it. It does not have one.... it’s simply the force that keeps individuals alive. The same force, gives life to the animals. —Ecclesiastes 3:19-20.

 

[Brian2]

Sorry, but no. Continue reading the next verses...

Phil 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

Because He took the form of a servant, that does not not negate the present participle "being". As a man Jesus was in the form of both God and of a servant.
The word form also does not refer to the outer appearance. There is a play on words here and "form" is played against "likeness". "Form" means the inward form, the nature. He was in nature God and He took the inward nature of a servant. He has both natures and so was and is the divine man, the God man, the perfect mediator because He is both a man and is God.
It is interesting also to note that He had to take the form of a servant. He did not have that form before even though the WT says He was an angel.

 

[Brian2]

Wrong again, my cousin. At death, a person’s “spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground.”
— Psalms 146:3-4.

The difference is, you attribute a personality to it. It does not have one.... it’s simply the force that keeps individuals alive. The same force, gives life to the animals. —Ecclesiastes 3:19-20.

Same thing. The WT teaches that the life force is a force not a spirit that lives in a body and animates it.
If God is the Father of spirits (Heb 12:9) then we have a spirit that God is the Father of. That spirit is us (albeit not the complete us, as the complete us includes the body) God is not the Father of a physical body that has been animated by a force.
At death the body dies and the spirit becomes the whole person and lives on, the spirit becomes the soul, the totality of the person, but as I said, not the complete person without the body. (see Matt 10:28)
The spirit/soul goes out and keeps living because it has not died at the death of the body.
This is why Jesus can being the dead in Christ back to be resurrected when He returns (1Thess 4) and why the souls of the martyrs are under the altar in heaven (Rev 6:9-11) and why the spirits of just men can be made perfect. (Heb 12:23)
How can that be if the spirit is just a force, how can a force be made perfect?
How can God be God of a physical body?
How can a force know the mind of a man and how can a force know the mind of God? (1Cor 2:11)

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Same thing. The WT teaches that the life force is a force not a spirit that lives in a body and animates it.
If God is the Father of spirits (Heb 12:9) then we have a spirit that God is the Father of. That spirit is us (albeit not the complete us, as the complete us includes the body) God is not the Father of a physical body that has been animated by a force.
At death the body dies and the spirit becomes the whole person and lives on, the spirit becomes the soul, the totality of the person, but as I said, not the complete person without the body. (see Matt 10:28)
The spirit/soul goes out and keeps living because it has not died at the death of the body.
This is why Jesus can being the dead in Christ back to be resurrected when He returns (1Thess 4) and why the souls of the martyrs are under the altar in heaven (Rev 6:9-11) and why the spirits of just men can be made perfect. (Heb 12:23)
How can that be if the spirit is just a force, how can a force be made perfect?
How can God be God of a physical body?
How can a force know the mind of a man and how can a force know the mind of God? (1Cor 2:11)

I know you prefer the KJV.
In it, “spirit” can be applied different ways. At 1 Kings 10:5, the Queen of Sheba had “no more spirit in her” after seeing Solomon’s glory How do you think that is meant? It does not mean a personality.
There’s “anguish of spirit” Exodus 6:9. Exodus 35:21 is similar.
Exodus 35:31 says Bezalel was “filled...with the spirit of God.”
Numbers 5:30 speaks of “the spirit of jealousy.”
Isaiah 57:15 states God dwells with a person who exhibits “a contrite and humble spirit.”

These are not living, nor are they personalities.

The Hebrew word for “spirit” is ru’ach. It means breath or wind. There’s no implication of personality or sentience within itself.

But you’re gonna make it, whatever you want to.
(I noticed that you ignore Ecclesiastes 3:19-20. That’s on you.)

You’ll never grasp the beauty of the Resurrection if you insist on giving humans an immortal nature. Satan has the entire (religious) world thinking that the dead are ‘alive in another realm.’ It only furthers the lie he told Eve, “You positively will not die.”

 

[Deeje]

Phil 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

What "form" does God have?
John 4:24...
"God is a Spirit"....so is every other being who dwells in heaven with God...including Jesus in his pre-human position. The Bible clearly tells us that "the Word" (LOGOS) was "with God" "in the beginning".....since he was the very first of his Father's creations, (Revelation 3:14) there is no one who existed before Jesus, except the Father who begat him.

Because He took the form of a servant, that does not not negate the present participle "being". As a man Jesus was in the form of both God and of a servant.

There is not a single scripture that says so. The fact that he was a spirit who became human suggests no such thing. "The Word became flesh"....but he was not God.

The word form also does not refer to the outer appearance. There is a play on words here and "form" is played against "likeness". "Form" means the inward form, the nature. He was in nature God and He took the inward nature of a servant. He has both natures and so was and is the divine man, the God man, the perfect mediator because He is both a man and is God.

Where will I see that in scripture? There is nowhere in scripture where Jesus ever claimed to be God...not once. If Jesus was God how could he die? God is immortal.
If John said that "no one has ever seen God"...did he lie? (John 1:18)

John 6:46....
"Not that any man has seen the Father, except the one who is from God; this one has seen the Father."

Exodus 33:20...when Moses asked to see God, he replied....
"You cannot see my face, for no man can see me and live.”

How many people saw Jesus?

It is interesting also to note that He had to take the form of a servant. He did not have that form before even though the WT says He was an angel.

Jesus in our belief, is not just an angel, but THE Archangel Michael.....the Commander in Chief of the angels. Only two persons are named as the Commander of angels in the Bible.....Michael and Jesus.....there is no reason to think that they are not one and the same person in different roles. The only thing that prevents people from understanding that is the trinity. But there was no trinity when Jesus walked the earth. Not one of God's servants ever spoke of a triune god. This three headed god is an adoption by the Catholic church that only became official doctrine in the 4th century.

 

[John1.12]

Ok, let’s take your interpretation... “PREEMINENCE OVER all (what?) creation”!
Let’s apply this to King David....he was “preeminent over” what? Kings of that time, right? He was still a king! Saying he was ‘the best’ of them, still makes him one.

Jesus was / is the agent Jehovah God used, to create. That’s why in speaking of the creation, the Scriptures always say “through” Jesus. Or “by means of...”

He wasn’t the initiator.

That’s why 1 Corinthians 8:6 says of the “one God”, who is the Father*: “from whom all things came.”

* cf. John 17:3

You miss the entire Point Paul is making . Colossians is about Jesus being the ' head ' of ALL . its to refute Gnostic ideas and the very thing your saying . That Jesus was Just another Spirit creature/ powerful Angel ect . The irony is amazing.

 

[John1.12]

Jesus is not the Creator. Only the Father has that designation.

Paul tells us that God gave his precious son the privilege to fashion all things, using the raw materials that his Father had brought into existence (refer to the scriptures provided) and that holy spirit was the power he used to do that. Creation came “through” the Son and “for” him, so how is Jesus the Creator? .....and he was working at his Father’s side. The son was part of the “our” and “us” in Genesis 1:26. It was a team effort. Much like an architect directing his construction engineer in producing the finished building.

Jesus demonstrated that he was powerless as a human being until he received the holy spirit at his baptism, which would explain why his siblings did not accept him as Messiah until after his death and resurrection. Only when he was anointed with God’s spirit to begin his mission, was he able to perform miracles.

But the bible says that ' Jehovah 'had no 'assistance ' or ' help ' .
Isaiah 44:24

“Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone ; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself ;”

 

[John1.12]

No, it's Mormonism that has the "Mother God" who gave birth to us in spirit form (including Jesus and Satan), not JWs.

I agree . But when Jehovah witnesses keep pressing the analogies surrounding how they use Col 1.15 its worth mentioning the logical implications.

 

[John1.12]

Ok, let’s take your interpretation... “PREEMINENCE OVER all (what?) creation”!
Let’s apply this to King David....he was “preeminent over” what? Kings of that time, right? He was still a king! Saying he was ‘the best’ of them, still makes him one.

Jesus was / is the agent Jehovah God used, to create. That’s why in speaking of the creation, the Scriptures always say “through” Jesus. Or “by means of...”

He wasn’t the initiator.

That’s why 1 Corinthians 8:6 says of the “one God”, who is the Father*: “from whom all things came.”

* cf. John 17:3

Isaiah 44:24

“Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens ALONE ; that spreadeth abroad the earth BY MYSELF ;”

'Jehovah' did not have help . Jesus is Jehovah . The Father is Jehovah . The Holy Spirit is Jehovah . 3 'Whos 'in one 'what '.

 

[John1.12]

Yes, verese do say this.

Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God,+ the firstborn of all creation;+

Revelation 3:14 “To the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ceʹa+ write: These are the things that the Amen+ says, the faithful and true+ witness,+ the beginning of the creation by God:

Prov 8:22 Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way,+
The earliest of his achievements of long ago


Gods creative works began with the creation of a being like himself. That being was Jesus Christ.

Starting with Col 1.15 could you walk me through the surrounding passages with the thrust of why Paul is saying what he is saying as to why you reach that conclusion?

 

[pearl]

Read carefully......is the Douay not a Catholic translation?

Do you not understand what I initially wrote, 'the Incarnation if the reason for Creation."

 

[pearl]

Read carefully......is the Douay not a Catholic translation?

However;
The first English Catholic version of the Bible, the Douay-Rheims (1582-1609/10), and its revision by Bishop Challoner (1750) were based on the Latin Vulgate. In view of the relative certainties more recently attained by textual and higher criticism, it has become increasingly desirable that contemporary translations of the sacred books into English be prepared in which due reverence for the text and strict observance of the rules of criticism would be combined.

The New American Bible has accomplished this in response to the need of the church in America today. It is the achievement of some fifty biblical scholars, the greater number of whom, though not all, are Catholics. In particular, the editors-in-chief have devoted twenty-five years to this work. The collaboration of scholars who are not Catholic fulfills the directive of the Second Vatican Council, not only that "correct translations be made into different languages especially from the original texts of the sacred books," but that, "with the approval of the church authority, these translations be produced in cooperation with separated brothers" so that "all Christians may be able to use them."

 

[Brian2]

What "form" does God have?
John 4:24...
"God is a Spirit"....so is every other being who dwells in heaven with God...including Jesus in his pre-human position. The Bible clearly tells us that "the Word" (LOGOS) was "with God" "in the beginning".....since he was the very first of his Father's creations, (Revelation 3:14) there is no one who existed before Jesus, except the Father who begat him.

God is a spirit. God inner form, His nature is more than just being a spirit however.

There is not a single scripture that says so. The fact that he was a spirit who became human suggests no such thing. "The Word became flesh"....but he was not God.

I just pointed out a scripture that tells us Jesus was in the form of God as a man because of the grammar, the present participle. He kept going in the form of God even when He became a man.

Where will I see that in scripture? There is nowhere in scripture where Jesus ever claimed to be God...not once. If Jesus was God how could he die? God is immortal.
If John said that "no one has ever seen God"...did he lie? (John 1:18)

John 6:46....
"Not that any man has seen the Father, except the one who is from God; this one has seen the Father."

Exodus 33:20...when Moses asked to see God, he replied....
"You cannot see my face, for no man can see me and live.”

How many people saw Jesus?

Jesus does not have to directly say "I am God" for it to be true. Jesus said only God is good and we know that Jesus is good so Jesus is God.
Thomas said to Jesus "My Lord and my God" so Jesus is God.
John said "Through Him all things were brought into existence and without Him not one thing came into existence". So He is God.
The angels are told to worship Him so He is God (Heb 1:6).
The rulers of the earth are told to Kiss Him (meaning to worship Him, so He is God.
He has the name above all names (Phil 2:9) so He is God.
He has the glory of God and is the imprint of His nature so He is God. (Heb 1:3)
He is the stone of stumbling and rock of offence (1Pet 2:8/Isa 8:14) so He is God.
Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.
So He is God.
The list of scriptures that show Jesus is God is long.

And yes nobody has seen God (the Father) but people have seen God. You mention Moses and the elders why went up Sinai with Moses also saw God and others also in the NT.
God is invisible and we cannot see Him but they saw someone. Maybe they saw the Son who is also Yahweh, He does have the name above all names after all. The others in the OT who saw The angel of the Lord also claim to have seen God. Were they wrong? Maybe they saw God manifesting as a man. Seeing a body does not mean they actually saw God the way He is, or saw His face. But this angel of the Lord was someone who was sent by Yahweh.

And true God cannot die but a man can die, but JWs have the wrong idea of death. A person does not go out of existence when they die and in fact Jesus said that when the body is killed the soul lives on (Matt 10:28)
even though JW theology teaches that a soul dies at the death of the body.

Jesus in our belief, is not just an angel, but THE Archangel Michael.....the Commander in Chief of the angels. Only two persons are named as the Commander of angels in the Bible.....Michael and Jesus.....there is no reason to think that they are not one and the same person in different roles. The only thing that prevents people from understanding that is the trinity. But there was no trinity when Jesus walked the earth. Not one of God's servants ever spoke of a triune god. This three headed god is an adoption by the Catholic church that only became official doctrine in the 4th century.

The deity of Jesus and the Holy Spirit is spoken of in scripture even though the details were not fleshed out. It took people wanting to make Jesus into a creation of God to force the church to make a stand.
I have no problem with Michael being Jesus. Being the ruler of the angels does not mean Jesus is an angel however.

 

[Brian2]

I know you prefer the KJV.
In it, “spirit” can be applied different ways. At 1 Kings 10:5, the Queen of Sheba had “no more spirit in her” after seeing Solomon’s glory How do you think that is meant? It does not mean a personality.
There’s “anguish of spirit” Exodus 6:9. Exodus 35:21 is similar.
Exodus 35:31 says Bezalel was “filled...with the spirit of God.”
Numbers 5:30 speaks of “the spirit of jealousy.”
Isaiah 57:15 states God dwells with a person who exhibits “a contrite and humble spirit.”

These are not living, nor are they personalities.

The Hebrew word for “spirit” is ru’ach. It means breath or wind. There’s no implication of personality or sentience within itself.

But you’re gonna make it, whatever you want to.
(I noticed that you ignore Ecclesiastes 3:19-20. That’s on you.)

You’ll never grasp the beauty of the Resurrection if you insist on giving humans an immortal nature. Satan has the entire (religious) world thinking that the dead are ‘alive in another realm.’ It only furthers the lie he told Eve, “You positively will not die.”

I don't insist on giving humans an immortal nature. The first death kills the body, the second death could very well destroy the soul as Jesus says (Matt 10:28). I can understand why many think that the spirit part of man is immortal however. It certainly lives on after the body dies.
But yes no doubt "spirit" is used in different ways in the scriptures and I'm willing to accept that, which is more than I can say for JWs who deny that we have a spirit inner man.

Eccles 3:19 For the lot of mortals and the lot of beasts is the same lot: The one dies as well as the other. Both have the same life breath. Human beings have no advantage over beasts, but all is vanity. 20 Both go to the same place; both were made from the dust, and to the dust they both return. 21 Who knows* if the life breath of mortals goes upward and the life breath of beasts goes earthward?

What would you like me to answer in that?

 

[Jane.Doe]

No, it's Mormonism that has the "Mother God" who gave birth to us in spirit form (including Jesus and Satan), not JWs.

Clarifying this: Yes, LDS Christians believe in a Heavenly Mother, and that she & the Father are the parents of our spirits. However, it's important to point out that this doesn't imply belief that one moment person didn't exist and the next they did. Rather, it is believed that Christ (for an example) has always existed.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Rather, it is believed that Christ (for an example) has always existed.

I honestly don't see how that works in Mormon theology that he always existed.