Question for LDS

[Jeremiah Ames]

Why do you believe in works for salvation? (fyi, I do)

Don’t quote scriptures, please. I believe all the ones you will quote.

I’m just looking for responses that reflect your heartfelt feelings and understanding on the matter.

Thanks.

 

[InChrist]

Why do you believe in works for salvation? (fyi, I do)

Don’t quote scriptures, please. I believe all the ones you will quote.

I’m just looking for responses that reflect your heartfelt feelings and understanding on the matter.

Thanks.

I don't think Latter-day saints believe in works for salvation. They believe Jesus saves from sin, but that works are necessary for exaltation or eternal progression. Although, I am not a Mormon now I once was. If I have this wrong another LDS member can present their correct view.

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

I don't think Latter-day saints believe in works for salvation. They believe Jesus saves from sin, but that works are necessary for exaltation or eternal progression. Although, I am not a Mormon now I once was. If I have this wrong another LDS member can present their correct view.

Is exaltation and eternal progression the same as regeneration?

 

[InChrist]

Is exaltation and eternal progression the same as regeneration?

No, they are not the same according to LDS doctrine. It is more along the lines of salvation = justification, but "fulness of salvation" = sanctification, glorification or exaltation.

 

[dianaiad]

Why do you believe in works for salvation? (fyi, I do)

Don’t quote scriptures, please. I believe all the ones you will quote.

I’m just looking for responses that reflect your heartfelt feelings and understanding on the matter.

Thanks.

Interesting question. First...I think you need to define 'salvation.'

We believe that Jesus' death and resurrection took care of 'original sin' (which, btw, we don't believe in) in that Jesus fixed it so that each and every single one of us who has ever been born WILL be resurrected and gain a physical, immortal, body.

Free gift. No 'works' required for that.

If that is 'salvation' (that we will all be resurrected), then we don't believe that works are required. However, we DO believe that works are required for anything above and beyond that, on the 'faith without works is dead faith' sort of thing.

We do 'works' because Jesus has asked us to do so. "If ye love me, keep my commandments" and all that. We are asked to have faith and to trust in Him....

And one cannot have faith if one doesn't demonstrate the trust...and act as if the things we claim to be true ARE true.

"Works" is, basically....demonstrating trust. We believe in Jesus the Christ, and we believe what He has said (and asked us to do) so we show our trust in Him by, y'know, doing stuff. Like trying to keep His commandments.

Those who claim that 'works' are not important, who 'sit on their salvations' thinking that the only thing they need to do is say they believe, are missing half of what 'faith' is. Belief is important, yes...but it ain't faith if there's no trust, and if the works aren't there.....that's not trust, is it?

 

[Katzpur]

Why do you believe in works for salvation? (fyi, I do)

Don’t quote scriptures, please. I believe all the ones you will quote.

I’m just looking for responses that reflect your heartfelt feelings and understanding on the matter.

Thanks.

I think it all depends upon what you mean by salvation. If "salvation" means nothing more to you than avoiding eternal damnation, then you are not understanding the word the way Latter-day Saints do. We see the word "salvation" as having different meanings, depending upon the context. I apologize, but I'm going to quote some scripture here, but if I'm going to explain what I just said, I'm going to have to. 1 Corinthians 15:22 says, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." This seems to me to be a pretty clear statement that death will be permanent for no one. Everyone who had ever lived will be resurrected from the dead. All will be made alive, regardless of their good works, bad deeds, faith or anything else. And this assurance of salvation from an everlasting death is made possible solely through Jesus Christ's Atonement. None of us could possibly raise ourselves from the dead. We have Jesus Christ to thank for that salvation.

Then there is salvation from "Hell." A great many Christians believe that most will ultimately go to Hell because, after all, Matthew 7:14 states, "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Mormons don't believe that this means most will end up in Hell, but that there will be few who find what we refer to as "the fullness of salvation" which is life eternal in the presence of God. We understand that Heaven is not a one-size-fits-all kind of place and that there will be varying degrees of glory in the resurrection. 1 Corinthians 15:40-42 reads, "There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead." Between the glory of the sun and the glory of the stars, there is quite a difference. To end up anywhere in Heaven is to be "saved," according to our understanding, and we believe that most of the people who have ever lived will end up in one of the three different degrees of glory. Romans 14:11 indicates that "every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God."

Of course, we have all known of some very wicked people who have died without faith in Christ. But as my favorite LDS Apostle, Dieter F. Uchtdorf, has said, "The more we learn about the gospel of Jesus Christ, the more we realize that endings here in mortality are not endings at all. They are merely interruptions—temporary pauses that one day will seem small compared to the eternal joy awaiting the faithful." We do not believe that death marks the final curtain, and there are many people who will come to know Christ during the period of time between their death and their resurrection. Ultimately everyone will acknowledge that Jesus Christ is their Savior, and with the exception of a very few, all will be "saved" from eternal torment.

Jesus Christ did say, however, on a number of occasions, that our works are important. They are not only important but they are critical to our receiving the greatest of all the blessings our Father in Heaven has set aside from us. Here are just a handful of scriptures that make it absolutely clear that our works will be rewarded:

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

John 15:10 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Romans 2:12-13 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

2Timothy: 2-19 Nevertheless, the foundation of God standeth sure, having the seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.

James 2:20-24 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

So, in short, we believe that we are saved from physical death regardless of our works, but that we may receive the fullness of salvation only through our joint efforts with our Savior. We believe that God doesn't just want to bring us back to Him, but that He wants to bring us back to Him better than we started out.

 

[Katzpur]

Is exaltation and eternal progression the same as regeneration?

We don't actually use the word "regeneration," but as I understand it, it would mean something more along the lines of "justified," while gaining "the fullness of salvation" or "exaltation" would be closer to what you might think of when you hear the word "sanctified." It's more or less the distinction one might make between making one righteous and making one holy.

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

Interesting question. First...I think you need to define 'salvation.'

We believe that Jesus' death and resurrection took care of 'original sin' (which, btw, we don't believe in) in that Jesus fixed it so that each and every single one of us who has ever been born WILL be resurrected and gain a physical, immortal, body.

Free gift. No 'works' required for that.

If that is 'salvation' (that we will all be resurrected), then we don't believe that works are required. However, we DO believe that works are required for anything above and beyond that, on the 'faith without works is dead faith' sort of thing.

We do 'works' because Jesus has asked us to do so. "If ye love me, keep my commandments" and all that. We are asked to have faith and to trust in Him....

And one cannot have faith if one doesn't demonstrate the trust...and act as if the things we claim to be true ARE true.

"Works" is, basically....demonstrating trust. We believe in Jesus the Christ, and we believe what He has said (and asked us to do) so we show our trust in Him by, y'know, doing stuff. Like trying to keep His commandments.

Those who claim that 'works' are not important, who 'sit on their salvations' thinking that the only thing they need to do is say they believe, are missing half of what 'faith' is. Belief is important, yes...but it ain't faith if there's no trust, and if the works aren't there.....that's not trust, is it?

I not only agree with all you say, but I think I may go further.
I believe works that demonstrate the faith and love in Jesus are necessary. I get this from the sheep and goat parable of Jesus.
Sorry to mention a Bible verse.

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

I think it all depends upon what you mean by salvation. If "salvation" means nothing more to you than avoiding eternal damnation, then you are not understanding the word the way Latter-day Saints do. We see the word "salvation" as having different meanings, depending upon the context. I apologize, but I'm going to quote some scripture here, but if I'm going to explain what I just said, I'm going to have to. 1 Corinthians 15:22 says, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." This seems to me to be a pretty clear statement that death will be permanent for no one. Everyone who had ever lived will be resurrected from the dead. All will be made alive, regardless of their good works, bad deeds, faith or anything else. And this assurance of salvation from an everlasting death is made possible solely through Jesus Christ's Atonement. None of us could possibly raise ourselves from the dead. We have Jesus Christ to thank for that salvation.

Then there is salvation from "Hell." A great many Christians believe that most will ultimately go to Hell because, after all, Matthew 7:14 states, "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Mormons don't believe that this means most will end up in Hell, but that there will be few who find what we refer to as "the fullness of salvation" which is life eternal in the presence of God. We understand that Heaven is not a one-size-fits-all kind of place and that there will be varying degrees of glory in the resurrection. 1 Corinthians 15:40-42 reads, "There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead." Between the glory of the sun and the glory of the stars, there is quite a difference. To end up anywhere in Heaven is to be "saved," according to our understanding, and we believe that most of the people who have ever lived will end up in one of the three different degrees of glory. Romans 14:11 indicates that "every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God."

Of course, we have all known of some very wicked people who have died without faith in Christ. But as my favorite LDS Apostle, Dieter F. Uchtdorf, has said, "The more we learn about the gospel of Jesus Christ, the more we realize that endings here in mortality are not endings at all. They are merely interruptions—temporary pauses that one day will seem small compared to the eternal joy awaiting the faithful." We do not believe that death marks the final curtain, and there are many people who will come to know Christ during the period of time between their death and their resurrection. Ultimately everyone will acknowledge that Jesus Christ is their Savior, and with the exception of a very few, all will be "saved" from eternal torment.

Jesus Christ did say, however, on a number of occasions, that our works are important. They are not only important but they are critical to our receiving the greatest of all the blessings our Father in Heaven has set aside from us. Here are just a handful of scriptures that make it absolutely clear that our works will be rewarded:

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

John 15:10 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Romans 2:12-13 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

2Timothy: 2-19 Nevertheless, the foundation of God standeth sure, having the seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.

James 2:20-24 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

So, in short, we believe that we are saved from physical death regardless of our works, but that we may receive the fullness of salvation only through our joint efforts with our Savior. We believe that God doesn't just want to bring us back to Him, but that He wants to bring us back to Him better than we started out.

I pretty much agree with what you say here.
An exception is the comment about a very few receiving eternal torment.
I can’t see how a God of love would torment any eternally.
That’s just me.

I look at another concept somewhat different as well.
As I noted in my other comment, I like the sheep and goat parable, and see it as Jesus telling people who did nothing for others (works) that they will not inherit the kingdom (heaven).
I think my view is a bit stricter. Doesn’t this indicate that some kind of works are necessary?

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

We don't actually use the word "regeneration," but as I understand it, it would mean something more along the lines of "justified," while gaining "the fullness of salvation" or "exaltation" would be closer to what you might think of when you hear the word "sanctified." It's more or less the distinction one might make between making one righteous and making one holy.

That’s all too much for me right now, but I will look up the terms and give it some thought. Thanks.

 

[dianaiad]

I pretty much agree with what you say here.
An exception is the comment about a very few receiving eternal torment.
I can’t see how a God of love would torment any eternally.
That’s just me.

I look at another concept somewhat different as well.
As I noted in my other comment, I like the sheep and goat parable, and see it as Jesus telling people who did nothing for others (works) that they will not inherit the kingdom (heaven).
I think my view is a bit stricter. Doesn’t this indicate that some kind of works are necessary?

I think you would have to define what you mean by 'eternal torment.'

We don't believe that those who end up in 'outer darkness' are going to be tortured physically at all, never mind 'eternally.'

In fact, those who end up there (and Katspur is correct, there aren't going to be very many) CHOOSE to go there themselves, and 'eternal torment' is along the lines of permanent separation from God.

..............and it's their choice, not God's.

Think of it as...oh...walking up to Jesus, His Father and the Holy Ghost, saying 'I know exactly Who you are and what you want, and I want nothing to do with you. I choose the other side..." and then walking away.

not too many people are going to do that, y'know? At least, I don't think so.

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

I think you would have to define what you mean by 'eternal torment.'

We don't believe that those who end up in 'outer darkness' are going to be tortured physically at all, never mind 'eternally.'

In fact, those who end up there (and Katspur is correct, there aren't going to be very many) CHOOSE to go there themselves, and 'eternal torment' is along the lines of permanent separation from God.

..............and it's their choice, not God's.

Think of it as...oh...walking up to Jesus, His Father and the Holy Ghost, saying 'I know exactly Who you are and what you want, and I want nothing to do with you. I choose the other side..." and then walking away.

not too many people are going to do that, y'know? At least, I don't think so.

Indeed, I agree, the ones separated from God are making the choice themselves.

Again, a loving God would not do that.

We seem to see it all very much the same.

Thanks for you helpful input.