Question for Muslims

[Димитар]

Quran 23:12-14 reads

"Man We did create From a quintessence of clay
Then We placed him As a drop of sperm In a place of rest, Firmly fixed ;
Then We made the sperm Into a clot of congealed blood ; Then of that clot We made A fœtus lump ; then We Made out of that lump Bones and clothed the bones With flesh ; then We developed Out of it another creature. So blessed be God, The Best to create ! "

I have a problem with this claim,since scientifically this is not true.

Bones and flesh both develop from Mesoderm.The cell population Mesoderm goes on to develop into many cell types, including bone, but the first bone doesn't appear until gestation has progressed much further,so flesh is what develops first, and bone develops as a subset of flesh cells.

The order presented in the Quran is fertilization, blood formation, bones, then flesh.But organs and flesh are actually the first that begin cellular divsion and formation. Later, as the child grows, bone structures begin to develop along with organs and flesh.

How can I trust the Quran when it fails to be accurate scientifically?

 

[sayak83]

Quran 23:12-14 reads

"Man We did create From a quintessence of clay
Then We placed him As a drop of sperm In a place of rest, Firmly fixed ;
Then We made the sperm Into a clot of congealed blood ; Then of that clot We made A fœtus lump ; then We Made out of that lump Bones and clothed the bones With flesh ; then We developed Out of it another creature. So blessed be God, The Best to create ! "

I have a problem with this claim,since scientifically this is not true.

Bones and flesh both develop from Mesoderm.The cell population Mesoderm goes on to develop into many cell types, including bone, but the first bone doesn't appear until gestation has progressed much further,so flesh is what develops first, and bone develops as a subset of flesh cells.

The order presented in the Quran is fertilization, blood formation, bones, then flesh.But organs and flesh are actually the first that begin cellular divsion and formation. Later, as the child grows, bone structures begin to develop along with organs and flesh.

How can I trust the Quran when it fails to be accurate scientifically?

That is the only problem you have in this sentence. The perfect or pure form of clay is the Kaolinite mineral whose composition is Al2Si2O5(OH)4. Humans are definitely not produced from a sample of pure Kaolinite.
Kaolinite - Wikipedia

 

[SalixIncendium]

How can I trust the Quran when it fails to be accurate scientifically?

Much in the way you would trust any scripture that conflicts with what has been confirmed by science.

Scientific knowledge was practically non-existent early in the CE when the Quran was written, so much of what was written for what today would be considered a scientific standpoint was based on belief. Even science has believed some pretty crazy things before testing hypotheses and finding out just how silly their assumptions about reality were.

You'll find things in religious scripture that won't be scientifically accurate. Some of it is intended to be allegory, others are just misses on the understanding of reality at the time it was written. Scripture, in my opinion, should be approached with a discriminating mind. I think what's more important than accuracy are the moral teachings or knowledge of one's true nature that it brings.

 

[Link]

The order presented in the Quran is fertilization, blood formation, bones, then flesh.

The Arabic can be tricky. There is a thuma (which means there is one sequential), but the fa fa fa, can be interpreted to be all done relatively at the same time.

fa means so... so it can mean "so we created the clot as a lump flesh and so we created (the lump of flesh) with bones and so we put on top of the bone flesh". The thuma occurs once. God could've said "then", but used the word so... so doesn't necessarily mean sequential.

I'm glad you brought this up.

 

[Link]

ثُمَّ خَلَقْنَا النُّطْفَةَ عَلَقَةً فَخَلَقْنَا الْعَلَقَةَ مُضْغَةً فَخَلَقْنَا الْمُضْغَةَ عِظَامًا فَكَسَوْنَا الْعِظَامَ لَحْمًا ثُمَّ أَنْشَأْنَاهُ خَلْقًا آخَرَ ۚ فَتَبَارَكَ اللَّهُ أَحْسَنُ الْخَالِقِينَ |

You point to the problem that translators are sloppy and it causes not only contradiction to science often, but even contradictions to morals, ethics, and contradictions in Quran.

The yellow is "then" , while the red should be translated as "so".

And I missed the fact there was two "then"s but the second one says "then we turned it into another creation".

 

[Димитар]

The Arabic can be tricky. There is a thuma (which means there is one sequential), but the fa fa fa, can be interpreted to be all done relatively at the same time.

fa means so... so it can mean "so we created the clot as a lump flesh and so we created (the lump of flesh) with bones and so we put on top of the bone flesh". The thuma occurs once. God could've said "then", but used the word so... so doesn't necessarily mean sequential.

I'm glad you brought this up.

I use Yusuf Ali translations

But in the embryonic period of development, the zygote is referred as the embryo. After about 8 weeks the embryo is called the foetus. Foetus is the developing organisms from the end of the eight weeks until birth (nine months).

A blastocyst is made up of an inner group of cells with an outer shell. The inner group of cells will become the embryo.

then,

فَكَسَوْنَا ٱلْعِظَٰمَ لَحْمًا

The key verb here is كسونا which translates to "we clothed". So it's just saying that the bones form first and then gets covered by flesh.

Correct order is : embryo , flesh , bones.
Embryo is inner group of cells.

What confuses me more is the structure of the sentence , since it's not that clear for understanding.

 

[Muffled]

Quran 23:12-14 reads

"Man We did create From a quintessence of clay
Then We placed him As a drop of sperm In a place of rest, Firmly fixed ;
Then We made the sperm Into a clot of congealed blood ; Then of that clot We made A fœtus lump ; then We Made out of that lump Bones and clothed the bones With flesh ; then We developed Out of it another creature. So blessed be God, The Best to create ! "

I have a problem with this claim,since scientifically this is not true.

Bones and flesh both develop from Mesoderm.The cell population Mesoderm goes on to develop into many cell types, including bone, but the first bone doesn't appear until gestation has progressed much further,so flesh is what develops first, and bone develops as a subset of flesh cells.

The order presented in the Quran is fertilization, blood formation, bones, then flesh.But organs and flesh are actually the first that begin cellular divsion and formation. Later, as the child grows, bone structures begin to develop along with organs and flesh.

How can I trust the Quran when it fails to be accurate scientifically?

I believe that accurately describes cloning.

 

[Muffled]

That is the only problem you have in this sentence. The perfect or pure form of clay is the Kaolinite mineral whose composition is Al2Si2O5(OH)4. Humans are definitely not produced from a sample of pure Kaolinite.
Kaolinite - Wikipedia

I believe clay retains water and might serve to preserve soft tissue. Certainly they are finding bones in the earth and doing DNA tests on them.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Quran 23:12-14 reads

"Man We did create From a quintessence of clay
Then We placed him As a drop of sperm In a place of rest, Firmly fixed ;
Then We made the sperm Into a clot of congealed blood ; Then of that clot We made A fœtus lump ; then We Made out of that lump Bones and clothed the bones With flesh ; then We developed Out of it another creature. So blessed be God, The Best to create ! "

I have a problem with this claim,since scientifically this is not true.

Bones and flesh both develop from Mesoderm.The cell population Mesoderm goes on to develop into many cell types, including bone, but the first bone doesn't appear until gestation has progressed much further,so flesh is what develops first, and bone develops as a subset of flesh cells.

The order presented in the Quran is fertilization, blood formation, bones, then flesh.But organs and flesh are actually the first that begin cellular divsion and formation. Later, as the child grows, bone structures begin to develop along with organs and flesh.

How can I trust the Quran when it fails to be accurate scientifically?

Here is an article you might find interesting.

Human Embryology and the Holy Quran: An Overview - PMC

Man’s quest to know about his origin has led him to search his roots and the best source for him has been religious scriptures. The greatest miracle is the Holy Quraan. There is an elegant description of origin, development and step by step ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Димитар]

Here is an article you might find interesting.

Human Embryology and the Holy Quran: An Overview - PMC

Man’s quest to know about his origin has led him to search his roots and the best source for him has been religious scriptures. The greatest miracle is the Holy Quraan. There is an elegant description of origin, development and step by step ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The same problem , over and over again.

Quoted from this article:
"(Quran: Surah AI-Mu’minun,23:Ayat 12–14).
We (Allah) created man from a quintessence of clay. We then placed him as a nutfah (drop) in a place of settlement, firmly fixed, then We made the drop into an alaqah (leech like structure), and then We changed the alaqah into a mudghah (chewed like substance),then We made out of that mudghah, izam (skeleton,bones),then We clothed the bones with lahm (muscles,flesh) then We caused him to grow and come in being and attain the definitive (human)form. So, blessed be God, the best to create."

Again different interpretation and different narrative.You fail to see that changes the understanding of the verse.

I don't think that you understand my critic.
I don't say Quran is false because of that , i say this claim is innacurate because scientifically it shows innacurate order.

Musim apologists try to show that there are hidden meanings and different interpretations to get out of the problem.

I study the Quran with the same standard i study the Bible.
That means i give it a chance..

Another thing to note about this subject:
"The muscles and skeleton of the embryo develop pari-passu with each other, but the skeletal part forms as cartilage. Ossification commences in fetal life but does not complete until c. 25 years of age, so flesh very definitely comes before bone.

I think what's more important than accuracy are the moral teachings or knowledge of one's true nature that it brings.

I use the same standard to ask questions based on how it is claimed.I just don't see the Quran scientifacally so accurate.

It is the ones who preach Islam who use this kind of claims to support their argument.

I am that kind of person who always say - ok let us check that.It is not only this , there are many other problems with Sceintific claims that i would argue.

Classical Muslim Apologist on Quora:

Question:
"I was recently shown a somewhat ambiguous verse in the Koran about human embryos [Quran 23:12-14] and I wanted to know, what the best rebuttal to the claim?

Answer:
"You took a translated version of the text and used the Limited English language to explain a 1400 year old text. How old is the English language? Did the English language exist 1400 years ago? Is it fair to understand as you say "ambiguous" verses using the English language when Quran is originally a Classical Arabic text?

Please read my post on why there are ambiguous verses in the Quran. I will post link later.

The fair thing to do in order to understand clearly what is the meaning of what you loosely translated is take the word and see its roots. Arabic is a root driven language and the roots of the word explain what is meant by the verse. Since some roots have pages of meaning you have to understand how the root for that particular word was used during classical times, what is the context of the verse, and how did the last messenger explained the word. That is for ambiguous verses not clear ones. I don't consider the verse you mentioned ambiguous, rather I consider your translation weak.

Words like Salsal or Sulalatin min Teen. It is loosely translated as extract of clay or dirt. But if you look at its roots and other verses related to creation of man you would find very clearly that we essential being is from the earth. We are made from earth. This earth has essential particles called elements. Our bodies are from certain elements hydrogen, oxygen, carbon, zinc, iron, etc... You find these elements on the place our origin creation was made from. As the Quran so eloquently says "minha khalaqnakum wa feeha nueedukum wa minha nukhrijukum taratan ukhra" From the (earth) did we create you, and into it shall we return you, and from it shall we bring you out once again): (The Quran 20:55).

I can go further and explain what those verses mean but you have to first be fair and conclude that Quran is a Classical Arabic text and needs to be understood that way. Next, don't take verses in isolation and neglect the other verses related to creation. If anyone agrees to do that. I would be happy to explain furthur."

This answer is typicall jumping from one to another point,trying to give Dawah.

And what we can note is also this , Muslim apoligists point to verses to show fear to the one who is questioning.

"minha khalaqnakum wa feeha nueedukum wa minha nukhrijukum taratan ukhra"

"From the (earth) did we create you, and into it shall we return you, and from it shall we bring you out once again".

My questions was based on science , not on moral and ethics.

So most probable point that you will get from a Muslim is that he will point to fear , to show mercy,regardless of the area of the question.

It is that what bothers me more , not the claims.
I want to see how strong is a man when he is exposed to something that he does not like to hear.