Question for the Evangelical Community

[metis]

But the earlier one goes in history baptism always centered around absolvement of sin.

Yes, it's a variation of the mikvah, and in the early church it was preceded by a public confession of sins.

However, a bit later the public confession was dropped and was changed to a private confession with the priest or bishop, followed by a time of penance, the announcement of acceptance by the bishop, and then baptism.

I'm not sure of the timetable of when the above occurred (I studied this about 30 years ago, so please cut me some slack), but I do know it was pre-Constantine at least with some of the local churches.

 

[e.r.m.]

Yes, it's a variation of the mikvah, and in the early church it was preceded by a public confession of sins.

However, a bit later the public confession was dropped and was changed to a private confession with the priest or bishop, followed by a time of penance, the announcement of acceptance by the bishop, and then baptism.

I'm not sure of the timetable of when the above occurred (I studied this about 30 years ago, so please cut me some slack), but I do know it was pre-Constantine at least with some of the local churches.

Np. I don't know the time line either. I'll take your word for it.

 

[e.r.m.]

Sadly, I see real conviction lacking in many who identify as Christians.
Some of the big questions are still unanswered for them. Their beliefs are often based on pure blind faith. I don't believe that faith should be blind....it should be based on a sound knowledge of scripture.

When I was part of Christendom, I had all those big questions too. I could not fathom why there were no solid scripturally based answers to them. Not just any answers, but ones that agreed with the entire narrative of the Bible....it is one story, with one theme from beginning to end. That is because it has one author.

I found the truth I was looking for......but not where I expected to find it. I discovered that Christ's true disciples are not well received especially by those who claim to follow the same master. This is exactly what Jesus and the first century Christians had to contend with. Their biggest opponents were ones who claimed to worship the same God....that basically meant that the whole world was against them. (John 15:18-21)



Being forgiven paves the way for salvation, no doubt about that. Jesus' sacrifice guarantees forgiveness for all who are repentant.
We can fall many times and genuinely repent and receive forgiveness. But if we fall and fail to repent or presume on God's mercy, thinking that we can sin because we're covered.....we will be disappointed.

2 Peter 2:20-22
"20 Certainly if after escaping from the defilements of the world by an accurate knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they get involved again with these very things and are overcome, their final state has become worse for them than the first. 21 It would have been better for them not to have accurately known the path of righteousness than after knowing it to turn away from the holy commandment they had received. 22 What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog has returned to its own vomit, and the sow that was bathed to rolling in the mire.”"

Not a pretty picture, is it?



Acts 2:40-42 goes on to say.....
40 And with many other words he gave a thorough witness and kept exhorting them, saying: “Get saved from this crooked generation.” 41 So those who gladly accepted his word were baptized, and on that day about 3,000 people were added. 42 And they continued devoting themselves to the teaching of the apostles, to associating together, to the taking of meals, and to prayers."

How did those Jews 'get saved from that crooked generation'? They had to disengage from an apostate religious system and adopt the teachings of Jesus Christ. They then associated together. (Hebrews 10:24-25) And, again we have salvation being associated with accepting the Christian message, and thereafter, devoting themselves to the teachings of the apostles...which we know were the teachings of Jesus.

BTW, I actually asked what you thought the purpose of Jesus' baptism was?
It was obviously symbolic, because he had no need to repent.
Those who were baptised by John, were not baptised "in Jesus' name"....their baptism was specific as Jews repenting for transgressing God's law, in preparation for receiving the ministry of Jesus. John spoke of the one coming after him.....He said he was to 'go on decreasing as that one was increasing'. (John 3:30) Those baptised by John, had to get baptised again in the name of Jesus if they wanted to become Christians.

Baptism for Christians, is a symbolic death and resurrection....just like Jesus baptism symbolized him leaving one course of life as Jesus the man, and embarking on a new course as Jesus the Messiah, to which he was committed until his death...so the Christian course is a path from which one cannot deviate. It requires one to be "Faithful to death".

Jesus did not become the "Christ" (anointed one) until his baptism.



If one has accepted false teachings presented as Christianity, Jesus himself gives us some insight as to his attitude towards false Christianity.....(Matthew 7:21-23)

"Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’"

Read this carefully.....there are those who acknowledge Jesus as their "Lord", but whom Jesus says he has NEVER known. "Never" means, "not ever". So these ones have called themselves "Christians" but have somehow failed to keep God's laws from the beginning. In order to be identified as "workers of lawlessness", they must be doing so without realising it or at least justifying their wrong beliefs or conduct to themselves. It is a sad deception that God has not corrected.....do you know why? (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12)

I'm short on time. I agree with your first section about one story and one author. When people try to insert teachings foreign to the Bible, it clashes in all sorts of ways with the surrounding scriptures and surrounding story. One of the reasons why I don't believe in "between the lines" teachings such as baptism for the purpose of a public testimony is that they don't fit the surrounding scriptural story.

Sorry, the purpose of Jesus's baptism is not entirely clear to me. I know it's something that God wanted him to do. I know that it was to fulfill all righteousness. I know that no one else ever got baptized to fulfill ALL righteousness, and that the Bible when talking about our baptism, never made any reference to his.

I imagine that it had more to do with Judaism than the cross, and I'm sure it had something to do with preparing him for his coming mission.

 

[metis]

Np. I don't know the time line either. I'll take your word for it.

If you can find it, the best book I've ever read on dealing with the early history of Christianity in its first four centuries is "Tradition In the Early Church" by Dr. Hanson (Anglican). It is out of print, but it's worth it's weight in gold because he heavily documents his sources.

 

[e.r.m.]

If you can find it, the best book I've ever read on dealing with the early history of Christianity in its first four centuries is "Tradition In the Early Church" by Dr. Hanson (Anglican). It is out of print, but it's worth it's weight in gold because he heavily documents his sources.

TY.

 

[metis]

One of the reasons why I don't believe in "between the lines" teachings such as baptism for the purpose of a public testimony is that they don't fit the surrounding scriptural story.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this but what is scriptural is the issue of "repentance", and since one sought communion within the church, the church itself had stake in accepting or rejecting an applicant.

According to Hanson, the early church chose to abandon public confession because it apparently led to some problems, and I think that one can easily see how that could happen. .

 

[e.r.m.]

John 3:16-18 New International Version (NIV)

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Today, many people are truly confused about religion because there are tens of thousands all over the world calling themselves as Christian religion. What makes the people even more confused is the fact that each one claims to be the true Church of Christ. However, how can we identify the one true Church of Christ?



WHAT IS THE CHURCH OF CHRIST?


PERHAPS MANY ARE wondering if what is the Church of Christ. How and why it existed? Let us see how the Holy Scripture or the Bible answers these questions.


How the Church of Christ emerged?

The Church of Christ was established by the Lord Jesus Christ. He explicitly said:

“And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.” (Matthew 16:18 NKJV)

The Lord Jesus Christ said, “I will build My church.” Thus, there is the Church of Christ because the Lord Jesus Christ established this Church.


How many Church did Christ established?

Matthew 16:18 proves not only that the Lord Jesus established His Church, but also that Christ established only one Church:


“And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.” (Matthew 16:18 NKJV)

The Lord Jesus said “I will build My CHURCH.” He did not said “I will build My churches.” Hence, there is only one true Church established by the Lord Jesus Christ. The apostles of the Lord Jesus also testified that there is only one true Church:

“There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism.” (Ephesians 4:4-5 NKJV)

Apostle Paul said, “There is one body.” Apostle Paul Himself explained what He meant when He said “There is only one body.” In other writings of Apostle Paul he explained that the “Church” is the “body of Christ”:

“And He is the head of the body, the church...” (Colossians 1:18 NKJV)

Thus, when Apostle Paul said “There is only one body,” he meant “there is only one Church” having “one hope, one faith and one baptism.”


What is the name of the one true Church?

The one true Church established by Christ is called “Church of Christ.” Even Catholic authorities testify that the Church established by Christ is called “Church of Christ”:

“In regard to Matthew 16:18 – St. Cyprian speaks of the building of the Church of Christ, and designates the Church the ‘Church of Christ’…” (Dr. Ludwig Ott. Fundamentals of catholic Dogma. Nihil Obstat: Jeremiah J. O’Sullivan, D.D. Censor Deputatus. Imprimatur: Cornelius Rockford. Illinois: Tan Books and Publishers, Inc., 1954, p. 274)

According to this Catholic book, Cyprian, one of the early Catholic Church fathers, explained that Matthew 16:18 speaks of the building of the Church of Christ. He also explained that Christ designated the Church He established as “Church of Christ.” Another Catholic book has this to say:

“5. Did Jesus Christ established a Church?
“Yes, from all history, both secular and profane, as well as from the Bible considered as a human document, we learn that Jesus Christ established a Church, which from the earliest times has been called after Him the Christian Church or the Church of Christ.” (Cassily, Francis B., S.J. Religion: Doctrine and Practice for use in Catholic High Schools. 12th and revised edition. Imprimi Potest: Charles H. Cloud, S.J. Provincial of the Chicago Province. Imprimatur: George Cardinal Mundelein, Archbishop of Chicago. Chicago: Loyola university Press, 1934, p. 442-443.)

Even Protestant authorities also testify that the Church established by Christ is called “Church of Christ”:

“Christ prophesied the establishment of a new congregation or church, a holy institution that will continue His works on the world. Matthew 16:18. This is the Church of Christ.” (Pearlman, Mayer.Knowing the Doctrines of the Bible. Gospel Publishing House, p. 349)

Thus, both Catholic and Protestant authorities testify that Matthew 16:18 is referring to the establishment of the “Church of Christ.”


Why Church of Christ?

Matthew 16:18 did not only answered why there is the Church of Christ (the Lord Jesus established it) and how many the Lord established (only one true Church), but also it answered the question “why Church of Christ.” Let us again quote Matthew 16:18:

“And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.” (Matthew 16:18 NKJV)

The Lord Jesus said, “I will build My church.” take note that the true Church is built and owned by the Lord Jesus Christ. It is only right that this Church is called after the name of the founder and owner. Thus, why “Church of Christ”? Because the founder and the owner of this Church is Christ.

This fact shows to us that if a church is not called “Church of Christ,” that church is not founded by Christ. How can a church claim that their founder is Christ if they are not called after the name of Christ or in the name “Church of Christ.”

And because Christ said “My church,” then those churches not called after the name of Christ or not in the name “Church of Christ,” thus they cannot claim that they are of Christ or they are His church.

The name “Church of Christ” is important not only to identify which churches is the one true Church established and owned by Christ, but also this guarantee us that this Church is the only one that will truly be saved by Christ come Judgment Day. Acts 4:12 has this to say:

“Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12 NKJV)


Therefore, what is the Church of Christ?

The Church of Christ is the One True Church the Lord Jesus Christ established and will be saved come Judgment Day.

I belong to the Church of Christ. But the Bible also refers to the name church of God and the church. Any of these are good. And the Church of Christ I belong to teaches that salvation is individual, not as a group.

 

[e.r.m.]

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this but what is scriptural is the issue of "repentance", and since one sought communion within the church, the church itself had stake in accepting or rejecting an applicant.

According to Hanson, the early church chose to abandon public confession because it apparently led to some problems, and I think that one can easily see how that could happen. .

I imagine it did.

 

[MJFlores]

I belong to the Church of Christ. But the Bible also refers to the name church of God and the church. Any of these are good. And the Church of Christ I belong to teaches that salvation is individual, not as a group.

If a church teaches salvation is individual and not as a group then that church does not know this:

Ephesians 5:23
For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.

Which will Christ save? Is it the individual or those individuals in the church? How important is the church? That is based on the Bible, isn't it?

 

[e.r.m.]

If a church teaches salvation is individual and not as a group then that church does not know this:

Ephesians 5:23
For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.

Which will Christ save? Is it the individual or those individuals in the church? How important is the church? That is based on the Bible, isn't it?

Do you understand the concept of making inferences and exegesis vs. explicitly written text of scripture?

There is no explicitly written text of scripture that says we are just saved along with everyone else. And inferences made "from" verses are not evidence. There is nothing in the text of Ephesians 5:23 that Jesus initially saved them as a group. The passages applies equally to a group who were saved individually and are now a church. Jesus is the church's savior.

John 3:16, Acts 2:38 "whoever", "everyone of you" describe the time at which they are saved, and it describes it individually.

 

[Deeje]

When people try to insert teachings foreign to the Bible, it clashes in all sorts of ways with the surrounding scriptures and surrounding story. One of the reasons why I don't believe in "between the lines" teachings such as baptism for the purpose of a public testimony is that they don't fit the surrounding scriptural story.

That is a problem...but a bigger one, is that so much of what is passed off as "Christian" teaching is not found in the Bible at all. Most of it is introduced ideas forced in to scripture to promote fake Christianity. (Matthew 13:24-30) Jesus and his apostles foretold this situation....an apostasy that was to take place after the last restraining influence, (the death of the last apostle, John) was gone. (2 Thessalonians 2:6-7) As soon as the last portion of scripture was completed, the apostasy took hold and history attests to this fact. Christianity became very unchristian. (2 Thessalonians 2:1-5)

Just as Peter said....2 Peter 3:14-16:
"Therefore, beloved ones, since you are awaiting these things, do your utmost to be found finally by him spotless and unblemished and in peace. 15 Furthermore, consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote you according to the wisdom given him, 16 speaking about these things as he does in all his letters. However, some things in them are hard to understand, and these things the ignorant and unstable are twisting, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17 You, therefore, beloved ones, having this advance knowledge, be on your guard so that you may not be led astray with them by the error of the lawless people and fall from your own steadfastness."

There was the warning......twisting the scriptures is exactly what they did. They took the Jewish teaching about "sheol" and incorporated the pagan (Greek) idea about immortal souls suffering in "hades".

Translating "hades" and "gehenna" as "hell" in their Bibles, they created a monstrous lie about what would happen to the wicked, burning in flames for all eternity. No loving God would even think of doing that. (Jeremiah 7:31) In the Bible everlasting life is contrasted with everlasting death, not everlasting torture.

In the Bible, a "soul" is a living, breathing mortal creature.....the word never means something invisible that leaves the body at death. Satan's very first lie was "you surely will not die"....and this idea that humans go on living after the death of the body in some invisible realm, just serves to promote that lie.

Paul said in Acts 20:25-30:
“And now look! I know that none of you among whom I preached the Kingdom will ever see my face again. 26 So I call you to witness this very day that I am clean from the blood of all men, 27 for I have not held back from telling you all the counsel of God. 28 Pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed you overseers, to shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own Son. 29 I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among you and will not treat the flock with tenderness, 30 and from among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves."

This is exactly what happened....to the point of the ridiculously divided state of Christendom today. No wonder people are confused!

They also turned the "one God" of Judaism (Deuteronomy 6:4) into the three-headed god of paganism. Out of the three "Abrahamic" faiths, only one has deviated from monotheism by creating a new god with multiple personalities.
Jesus is not Almighty God and never once claimed to be. Not once is the holy spirit called God either. It contravenes the first commandment. (Exodus 20:3)

Sorry, the purpose of Jesus's baptism is not entirely clear to me. I know it's something that God wanted him to do. I know that it was to fulfill all righteousness. I know that no one else ever got baptized to fulfill ALL righteousness, and that the Bible when talking about our baptism, never made any reference to his.

Jesus was anointed by God's spirit immediately after his baptism, hereby making him Jesus "the Christ". His baptism was a symbolic death and resurrection....dying to his former life and being raised up a new man with a very difficult mission ahead of him. After his baptism, Jesus spent 40 days in the wilderness ,presumably in communion with his Father, preparing him for what lay ahead.

With the decision to replace Judas who defected in his course, Peter said....Acts 1:22:
"It is therefore necessary that of the men who accompanied us during all the time in which the Lord Jesus carried on his activities among us, 22 starting with his baptism by John until the day he was taken up from us, one of these men should become a witness with us of his resurrection."

So starting with his baptism, Jesus began his three and a half year ministry as Messiah.
Unlike Jews, who were born into a dedicated nation, people who responded to the Christian message had to choose to become Christians. (either Jews or Gentiles) They were then publicly baptized to symbolize their new course in life....leaving their old ways behind and following in the footsteps of their chosen Master. (1 Peter 2:21; Acts 19:1-7) John's baptism was the first performed among Jews.

There are actually four different baptisms mentioned in the Bible....(1) John’s baptism, (2) water baptism of Jesus and his followers, (3) baptism into Christ Jesus and into his death, (4) baptism with fire.
It is important to understand the differences.

I imagine that it had more to do with Judaism than the cross, and I'm sure it had something to do with preparing him for his coming mission.

Baptism was not practiced in Judaism. This was something new.

1 Peter 3: 19-22 tells us about Jesus preaching ..."to the spirits in prison, 20 who had formerly been disobedient when God was patiently waiting in Noah’s day, while the ark was being constructed, in which a few people, that is, eight souls, were carried safely through the water.
21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, is also now saving you (not by the removing of the filth of the flesh, but by the request to God for a good conscience), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. 22 He is at God’s right hand, for he went to heaven, and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him."

This baptism was obviously not the one that Jesus undertook. He had no sins for which to repent, nor did he have any conscience issues to contend with.
God's commands were followed to the letter by both Noah and Jesus...leaving us a model to imitate, albeit not perfectly.
Our request to God for a good conscience can only come from knowing that our sins are forgiven by the death of God's "Lamb". His blood is what guarantees our forgiveness.

 

[e.r.m.]

Deejee,
Yes, indeed we are saved by his blood. I'm not going to get into thecropic of hell with you. To big a can of worms. Baptism was derived from the mikvah which was a Jewish thing and which was what John was performing. To say that Jesus's water baptism was to symbolize his dbr is to add to the Bible. There is no scriptural text connecting the two. I can see that God anointed Him after His baptism. The idea that they were then publicly baptized to symbolize their new course in life is neither written in scripture. And the scripture makes absolutely no connection between Jesus's baptism and ours. For a person who speaks against introducing ideas not "written" in the Bible, you seem perfectly comfortable doing so in when it comes to your own beliefs

But back to the OP. Whatever your teaching on salvation, do your Kingdom Hall leaders teach this from the pulpit thoroughly? Thank you.

 

[Deeje]

Baptism was derived from the mikvah which was a Jewish thing and which was what John was performing. To say that Jesus's water baptism was to symbolize his dbr is to add to the Bible.

OK, lets examine the two and see if there is a connection.....is the origin of Christian baptism to be found in the ritual bathing practiced by the Jews? The scriptural answer is...No!
Ritual Bathing in Judaism and Christian Baptism are very different.

Here's why......

1) The Jews performed cleansing rites upon themselves. The baptism John performed, though, was not a kind of ritual bathing familiar to the Jews. That John came to be known as "the Baptizer" indicates that the immersion he performed was different. Jewish religious leaders even sent a delegation to him to inquire: “Why . . . do you baptize?” (John 1:25-26) "John answered them: “I baptize in water. One is standing among you whom you do not know, 27 the one coming behind me, the lace of whose sandal I am not worthy to untie."


2) The cleansing required by the Mosaic Law had to be repeated as often as a worshipper became unclean. This was not true of the baptism John performed nor of the later one practiced by Christians. John’s baptism indicated repentance and a rejection of a former life course. Christian baptism symbolized the fact that a person had dedicated him/herself to God as a disciple of his son. The Christian did so once, not over and over again.

3) The ritual bathing performed in the homes of the Jewish priests and in the public baths close to the Temple Mount bore nothing more than a superficial resemblance to Christian baptism. The respective meanings of these immersions were completely different. The Anchor Bible Dictionary observes: “A scholarly consensus holds that John [the Baptizer] did not take over or adapt any particular baptism from his milieu,” (from Judaism) The same can be said of the baptism practiced in the Christian congregation. It was not adopted from Judaism.

4) Christian baptism represents “the request made to God for a good conscience.” (1 Peter 3:21) It symbolizes that an individual has wholly dedicated him/herself to God to serve Him as a follower of the teachings of Jesus Christ. Complete immersion in water is an appropriate symbol of such a dedication. A person’s going under the water represents his dying to his former life course. Being raised out of the water symbolizes his being made alive to do God’s will. The symbolism is unmistakable. It fits what Jesus did and also what was required of his disciples. You cannot baptize yourself.

5) God grants a good conscience to those who make such a dedication and are baptized. The apostle Peter could tell fellow believers: “[Baptism] is also now saving you.” That is something that no amount of Jewish ritual bathing could ever achieve.

They are not even similar.

 

[Deeje]

But back to the OP. Whatever your teaching on salvation, do your Kingdom Hall leaders teach this from the pulpit thoroughly? Thank you.

It is the reason why JW's are all active ministers of the Kingdom. Not only do we concentrate on our own salvation by being careful to observe all of what scripture teaches to the best of our ability, but we willingly go out to the people as Jesus and his apostles did, (Matthew 10:11-15) to share the message with as many people as possible. He told us to "Go and make disciples of people of all the nations" and that he would be the one guiding and directing the work. He has certainly fulfilled that commission. (JW.ORG)

We preach in all languages to people of all faiths, helping them to gain salvation and to share their hope with others.

 

[omega2xx]

Mark.16[16] He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Acts.2[38] And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts.10[48] And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.

Acts.19[5] On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Gal.3[27] For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

There are 4 baptisms mentioned in the Bible: water, the Holy spirit, Jesus called His crucifixion and crossing the Red Sea is called being baptized into Moses. Only 2 of them have water involved and the ones who got wet when trying to cross the Red Sea were drowned, not saved.

We should not assume that every time we see "baptized" it refers to water baptism. Water baptism does not save. If it does, it would make Jesus baptism of the Holy Spirit of no value. Should we be water baptized? Of course, Jesus tells to to.

When studying baptism, we should start with Eph 4:4---one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

IMO that is telling us there is only one baptism that saves us and it can't be the one with water.

Water baptism is public. It can be seen. It is external It is our public testimony that we have decided to follow Jesus.

The baptism of the Holy spirit is personal. It is internal.

Col 2:11 says we have been circumcised with a circumcision made without hands. A spiritual circumcision of the heart. God's way allows women to be circumcised without mutilation.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit was also made without hands. It is our spiritual baptism. It is the one Col 2:11 is referring to. It is Jesus's baptism for all who make Him their Lord and Savior. It always precedes water baptism.

How can water baptism save someone who has not made Jesus their Lord and Savior? It can't. It is our profession of faith in Jesus that saves, not a ritual of some kind.

Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. No mention of water.

 

[MJFlores]

Do you understand the concept of making inferences and exegesis vs. explicitly written text of scripture?

There is no explicitly written text of scripture that says we are just saved along with everyone else. And inferences made "from" verses are not evidence. There is nothing in the text of Ephesians 5:23 that Jesus initially saved them as a group. The passages applies equally to a group who were saved individually and are now a church. Jesus is the church's savior.

John 3:16, Acts 2:38 "whoever", "everyone of you" describe the time at which they are saved, and it describes it individually.

What I could understand are what is written in the bible.

Matthew 18:3
And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Suddenly exegesis left the building.

Ephesians 5:25
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her

What is the truth? Christ loved his church - in fact he gave himself for his church - not to the world, no but to his church.

John 17:6, 9, 15
“I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.

I believe this is how God will save people through the Lord Jesus Christ, it is through the Church, headed by Christ. This is what the Bible say "the new creation"

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!

This also answers what Nicodemus asked in John 3:1-15

 

[omega2xx]

Sweet! Beautiful!!

Someone ask me about Judges 9:8 and I lost the post. Was it you or do I need to continuing looking?

 

[metis]

Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. No mention of water.

Water baptism was both the recognition of a repentant mind but also a public initiation into the church. Also, I never said nor implied that somehow that by itself it "saved" anyone. However, it is mandated, which not only shows up in scripture but also was a necessary practice of the early church.

My rule-of-thumb when attempting to interpret what a Biblical narrative may actually mean is assisted by observing what subsequently happened afterwards, and we know from the writings from the early 2nd century church how they viewed baptism, especially since it was a variation of the mikvah that had been practiced in Judaism long before Jesus was even born. With "the Way", it obviously took on some additional meanings.

 

[Desert Snake]

Water baptism was both the recognition of a repentant mind but also a public initiation into the church. Also, I never said nor implied that somehow that by itself it "saved" anyone. However, it is mandated, which not only shows up in scripture but also was a necessary practice of the early church.

That alone makes me a non-christian.

 

[metis]

That alone makes me a non-christian.

Not to in any way argue with you since I'm also a non-Christian, but could you explain the above?