Question for the Secular Crowd Here

[Treasure Hunter]

Luke 18:1-8

Bible Gateway passage: Luke 18 - New International Version

The Parable of the Persistent Widow - Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they should always pray and not give up. He said: “In a certain town there was a judge who neither feared God nor cared what people thought. And there was a widow in that town who kept coming to him...

www.biblegateway.com

In the Parable of the Persistent Widow, there is a judge who does not fear God and does not care what people think. We can think of the judge as apathetic to some degree. “Does not fear God” can be interpreted as not fearing the consequences of non belief in God or of unconcern with God.

Moreover, this judge has a bit of a thorn in the side which is the persistent widow seeking justice. This can be interpreted as a constant, underlying, restless feeling of dissatisfaction. That there is something wrong which needs correcting. The story says that the judge feels compelled to act or something bad might happen.

I’m wondering how many of the agnostic/atheist secular types here can relate to this feeling. Perhaps this feeling is partially motivating participation on this forum? Try not to let any anti-biblical sentiments cloud your response if you can help it. Thanks.

 

[Heyo]

Luke 18:1-8

Bible Gateway passage: Luke 18 - New International Version

The Parable of the Persistent Widow - Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they should always pray and not give up. He said: “In a certain town there was a judge who neither feared God nor cared what people thought. And there was a widow in that town who kept coming to him...

www.biblegateway.com

In the Parable of the Persistent Widow, there is a judge who does not fear God and does not care what people think. We can think of the judge as apathetic to some degree. “Does not fear God” can be interpreted as not fearing the consequences of non belief in God or of unconcern with God.

Moreover, this judge has a bit of a thorn in the side which is the persistent widow seeking justice. This can be interpreted as a constant, underlying, restless feeling of dissatisfaction. That there is something wrong which needs correcting. The story says that the judge feels compelled to act or something bad might happen.

I’m wondering how many of the agnostic/atheist secular types here can relate to this feeling. Perhaps this feeling is partially motivating participation on this forum? Try not to let any anti-biblical sentiments cloud your response if you can help it. Thanks.

Post addressing me which starts with a Bible quote - I'm out.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Luke 18:1-8

Bible Gateway passage: Luke 18 - New International Version

The Parable of the Persistent Widow - Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they should always pray and not give up. He said: “In a certain town there was a judge who neither feared God nor cared what people thought. And there was a widow in that town who kept coming to him...

www.biblegateway.com

In the Parable of the Persistent Widow, there is a judge who does not fear God and does not care what people think. We can think of the judge as apathetic to some degree. “Does not fear God” can be interpreted as not fearing the consequences of non belief in God or of unconcern with God.

Moreover, this judge has a bit of a thorn in the side which is the persistent widow seeking justice. This can be interpreted as a constant, underlying, restless feeling of dissatisfaction. That there is something wrong which needs correcting. The story says that the judge feels compelled to act or something bad might happen.

I’m wondering how many of the agnostic/atheist secular types here can relate to this feeling. Perhaps this feeling is partially motivating participation on this forum? Try not to let any anti-biblical sentiments cloud your response if you can help it. Thanks.

I am slow in understanding. Can you rephrase it?

 

[SalixIncendium]

I am slow in understanding. Can you rephrase it?

I'm fairly confident @Treasure Hunter is suggesting that God is driving atheistic/agnostic participation at RF.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I'm fairly confident @Treasure Hunter is suggesting that God is driving atheistic/agnostic participation at RF.

Well, for me as an agnostic then no, not really.

 

[HonestJoe]

I’m wondering how many of the agnostic/atheist secular types here can relate to this feeling. Perhaps this feeling is partially motivating participation on this forum? Try not to let any anti-biblical sentiments cloud your response if you can help it. Thanks.

I'm not sure about your interpretation of the parable. It seems to me to be saying that the judge was acting for selfish reasons (he didn't want to help the widow but did just so she would stop hassling him) but that was actually Gods influence on him led to the widow getting her justice anyway (the implied assumption being that the widow was in the right of course).

The problem is that the judges behaviour can obviously be explained without any kind of divine influence, so it's really just about claiming that anything "good" that happens is because of God, even if it isn't apparent.

So yes, we'll all have been in similar positions to the judge (though hopefully not as willingly unjust as it is implied there). You're essentially asking; "Do you ever make decisions based on what you think will be easier for you?"

 

[PureX]

So, sometimes the 'right' decision is the easier decision.

And God helps those who help themselves ... by being the 'squeaky wheel'.

And somehow this should all add up to non-believers having a conscience.

I don't get the point of any of this.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Luke 18:1-8

Bible Gateway passage: Luke 18 - New International Version

The Parable of the Persistent Widow - Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they should always pray and not give up. He said: “In a certain town there was a judge who neither feared God nor cared what people thought. And there was a widow in that town who kept coming to him...

www.biblegateway.com

In the Parable of the Persistent Widow, there is a judge who does not fear God and does not care what people think. We can think of the judge as apathetic to some degree. “Does not fear God” can be interpreted as not fearing the consequences of non belief in God or of unconcern with God.

Interesting. I took it to mean someone who believes in God but does not fear him... like modern-day "I have a personal relationship with Jesus"-type Christians, or evangelical theocrats who are sure they're in God's good graces as they oppress people.

Moreover, this judge has a bit of a thorn in the side which is the persistent widow seeking justice. This can be interpreted as a constant, underlying, restless feeling of dissatisfaction. That there is something wrong which needs correcting. The story says that the judge feels compelled to act or something bad might happen.

Kind of a weird parable. At the end, Jesus explains that the judge is an analogy for God, who in the here-and-now is being cried out to. Jesus promises that God will be spurred to action by those cries like the judge was.

I'm not sure what God is supposed to be fearing in that analogy, though.

Wait: I think I see. I generally avoid the NIV because I find that they're very agenda-laden in their translation and it looks like this is the case here. Flipping through some other translations, looks like the phrase the NIV translates as "she will come and attack me" is rendered as something like "she will come and wear me out with her complaining." I think that other version makes the parable more coherent.

I’m wondering how many of the agnostic/atheist secular types here can relate to this feeling. Perhaps this feeling is partially motivating participation on this forum? Try not to let any anti-biblical sentiments cloud your response if you can help it. Thanks.

I don't relate to much of your parable... and I'd suggest that you reflect on your own prejudices if the first thing you think when you read a story of an unjust judge is "aha! This is just like an atheist!"

I'm not really sure what you think atheists are supposed to identify with in the unjust judge.

... and like I said earlier, I think the unjust judge in the story is supposed to represent God (or maybe a foil to measure God against), not an actual human non-believer.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

So, sometimes the 'right' decision is the easier decision.

Yeah, I supppse that's another take on it. It's handy: when a Christian feels like taking the hard path, they can pull out that "narrow is the way..." verse and when they feel like taking the easy path, they can pull out the parable of the persistent widow.

Either way, what they decide is endorsed by God. Convenient.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Luke and/or Jesus must have been having a bad day; as parables go, I give it a D-minus.

Too many intellectually lazy theists believe that they have at their disposal a no-lose fallback:

• If a secular individual does something 'bad' it is deemed clear evidence of his or her godlessness.
• If, however, the individual is caught doing something "good" then the appropriate response is deemed to be "thank God."

I hope - in fact I suspect - that most theists are better than this.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Luke 18:1-8

Bible Gateway passage: Luke 18 - New International Version

The Parable of the Persistent Widow - Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they should always pray and not give up. He said: “In a certain town there was a judge who neither feared God nor cared what people thought. And there was a widow in that town who kept coming to him...

www.biblegateway.com

In the Parable of the Persistent Widow, there is a judge who does not fear God and does not care what people think. We can think of the judge as apathetic to some degree. “Does not fear God” can be interpreted as not fearing the consequences of non belief in God or of unconcern with God.

Moreover, this judge has a bit of a thorn in the side which is the persistent widow seeking justice. This can be interpreted as a constant, underlying, restless feeling of dissatisfaction. That there is something wrong which needs correcting. The story says that the judge feels compelled to act or something bad might happen.

I’m wondering how many of the agnostic/atheist secular types here can relate to this feeling. Perhaps this feeling is partially motivating participation on this forum? Try not to let any anti-biblical sentiments cloud your response if you can help it. Thanks.

Trying usually indicates progress. There comes a time however that one needs to differentiate between trying and abject futility.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

Interesting. I took it to mean someone who believes in God but does not fear him...

It is this too. We live in a different environment, though. Belief in God was universal back then.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

I'm fairly confident @Treasure Hunter is suggesting that God is driving atheistic/agnostic participation at RF.

This suspicion is what I was hoping to avoid. “He quoted the Bible. This must be a trap.”

How universally recognized the underlying feeling is — which is being associated with the widow — that’s what I’m most curious about. I’m not going to proclaim that everyone who recognizes it has to start believing in God.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

I'm not sure about your interpretation of the parable. It seems to me to be saying that the judge was acting for selfish reasons (he didn't want to help the widow but did just so she would stop hassling him) but that was actually Gods influence on him led to the widow getting her justice anyway (the implied assumption being that the widow was in the right of course).

The problem is that the judges behaviour can obviously be explained without any kind of divine influence, so it's really just about claiming that anything "good" that happens is because of God, even if it isn't apparent.

So yes, we'll all have been in similar positions to the judge (though hopefully not as willingly unjust as it is implied there). You're essentially asking; "Do you ever make decisions based on what you think will be easier for you?"

Your interpretation is valid. I’m more interested in the question of whether the judge and widow are universally real, subjectively. God doesn’t need to be brought into it.

It would take some introspection and curiosity. Maybe I will start over and ask only Christians to respond..

 

[Treasure Hunter]

Flipping through some other translations, looks like the phrase the NIV translates as "she will come and attack me" is rendered as something like "she will come and wear me out with her complaining." I think that other version makes the parable more coherent.

Isn’t it still negative motivation for the judge regardless of the translation? Care to elaborate on this?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Isn’t it still negative motivation for the judge regardless of the translation? Care to elaborate on this?

Like I said, it seems like the judge represents God in the parable.

An attack from a human widow probably wouldn't be anything for God to worry about, but it's more reasonable - to me, anyhow - that God could be pestered by a widow until he gets annoyed.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

This thorn in the side — the anxious feeling that I need to be doing something more — is quite clearly socially conditioned and enforced. The reason why the description, “doesn’t care what other people think” is included is so we see beyond the socially conditioned aspect.

The judge in the story is like a sheep separated from the flock. The realization is that the nagging feeling is deeper than mere social construction. Someone mentioned conscience before and I think it’s spot on. But, again, it’s beyond the social conscience. The point is to recognize the conscience beyond the social conscience and to realize that the social conscience is a barrier to this conscience beyond.

Whether or not we should follow this second conscience is skipping too far ahead. It’s useful to first understand that if I feel stuck or disappointed with life, there is another option available to me, if I’m willing to turn in and dig a bit deeper into myself.

This second conscience beyond the (original) social conscience Jesus associates with a persistent widow desiring justice.

 

[Nakosis]

Luke 18:1-8

Bible Gateway passage: Luke 18 - New International Version

The Parable of the Persistent Widow - Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they should always pray and not give up. He said: “In a certain town there was a judge who neither feared God nor cared what people thought. And there was a widow in that town who kept coming to him...

www.biblegateway.com

In the Parable of the Persistent Widow, there is a judge who does not fear God and does not care what people think. We can think of the judge as apathetic to some degree. “Does not fear God” can be interpreted as not fearing the consequences of non belief in God or of unconcern with God.

Moreover, this judge has a bit of a thorn in the side which is the persistent widow seeking justice. This can be interpreted as a constant, underlying, restless feeling of dissatisfaction. That there is something wrong which needs correcting. The story says that the judge feels compelled to act or something bad might happen.

I’m wondering how many of the agnostic/atheist secular types here can relate to this feeling. Perhaps this feeling is partially motivating participation on this forum? Try not to let any anti-biblical sentiments cloud your response if you can help it. Thanks.

No feeling of dissatisfaction.
Just a feeling of wanting to publicly express some abstract ideas about reality and get feedback.

The parable seems a bit odd.
It basically says it may seem that God does not hear you when you pray but if you keep bugging God, eventually God will get tried of your complaints and answer you.

 

[Nakosis]

Like I said, it seems like the judge represents God in the parable.

An attack from a human widow probably wouldn't be anything for God to worry about, but it's more reasonable - to me, anyhow - that God could be pestered by a widow until he gets annoyed.

Exactly as I see it.

 

[Audie]

Interesting. I took it to mean someone who believes in God but does not fear him... like modern-day "I have a personal relationship with Jesus"-type Christians, or evangelical theocrats who are sure they're in God's good graces as they oppress people.



Kind of a weird parable. At the end, Jesus explains that the judge is an analogy for God, who in the here-and-now is being cried out to. Jesus promises that God will be spurred to action by those cries like the judge was.

I'm not sure what God is supposed to be fearing in that analogy, though.

Wait: I think I see. I generally avoid the NIV because I find that they're very agenda-laden in their translation and it looks like this is the case here. Flipping through some other translations, looks like the phrase the NIV translates as "she will come and attack me" is rendered as something like "she will come and wear me out with her complaining." I think that other version makes the parable more coherent.



I don't relate to much of your parable... and I'd suggest that you reflect on your own prejudices if the first thing you think when you read a story of an unjust judge is "aha! This is just like an atheist!"

I'm not really sure what you think atheists are supposed to identify with in the unjust judge.

... and like I said earlier, I think the unjust judge in the story is supposed to represent God (or maybe a foil to measure God against), not an actual human non-believer.

Winner frubal