Question on Time

[Elliott]

I was observing that there are two common measures by which we measure the start of a new day. One is at midnight when the new day literally begins, and the other is when we wake up in the morning to begin the new day. I was thinking that different religions or civilizations in history may have their own measure of the start of a new day and was wondering if anyone had any insight on the matter.

 

[Heyo]

In Jewish culture, the "day" begins at sundown.

I assume it was the same in Celtic culture, but I don't know. At least, the year begins with winter (Samhain).

 

[ChristineM]

In ancient Rome the day began at sunrise and time was counted in flexible hours from sunrise being the first hour of a 24 hour day

Sunrise to sunset were the were the first 12 hours, sunset to sunrise the second 12 hours. So hours were longer during the summer.


They had an 8 day week until Constantine adopted the 7 day week with Sunday being the first day of the week

 

[Heyo]

In ancient Rome the day began at sunrise and time was counted in flexible hours from sunrise being the first hour of a 24 hour day

Sunrise to sunset were the were the first 12 hours, sunset to sunrise the second 12 hours. So hours were longer during the summer.

They may have adopted that from the Egyptians. They had clepsydra that could be adjusted, depending on the month, to always divide the day and the night into twelve hours.

 

[Elliott]

In Jewish culture, the "day" begins at sundown.

I assume it was the same in Celtic culture, but I don't know. At least, the year begins with winter (Samhain).

So their year would begin around October?

 

[Elliott]

In ancient Rome the day began at sunrise and time was counted in flexible hours from sunrise being the first hour of a 24 hour day

Sunrise to sunset were the were the first 12 hours, sunset to sunrise the second 12 hours. So hours were longer during the summer.


They had an 8 day week until Constantine adopted the 7 day week with Sunday being the first day of the week

I always wondered if there were civilizations that had a different measure of a week. That is really interesting.

 

[ChristineM]

They may have adopted that from the Egyptians. They had clepsydra that could be adjusted, depending on the month, to always divide the day and the night into twelve hours.

I believe it was something to do with rhe Greeks but i never followed it up.

 

[Heyo]

So their year would begin around October?

Around November. The idea of Samhain being the 31st of October comes from one Roman source, but is most likely a misinterpretation. The Romans had a solar calendar, while the Celts had a lunar calendar. There is a fragment of a Celtic calendar, recorded by Romans, the Coligny Calendar. It records a 19-year calendar with 12 and 13 months years. New year may have been something like "the second new moon after the equinox". But that is just my assumption based on the idea that they were consistent in their timekeeping. We know that the year began with the dark time (winter) and maybe the month and the day may have had a similar idea (new moon and sundown).

 

[Heyo]

I always wondered if there were civilizations that had a different measure of a week. That is really interesting.

The length of a week (if there was a unit between day and month), was all over the place. 7, 8, 10 and 12 being used through various cultures. And sometimes they weren't fixed. A 7-day week gives you roughly a quarter of a lunar month, but to keep in sync, sometimes days were added that didn't belong to any week, mostly holy days. The same was done with solar years. Iirc, the Romans before Julius Caesar had 360-day years (12 months with 30 days each), with a 5-day feast that was "between the years".

 

[Elliott]

Around November. The idea of Samhain being the 31st of October comes from one Roman source, but is most likely a misinterpretation. The Romans had a solar calendar, while the Celts had a lunar calendar. There is a fragment of a Celtic calendar, recorded by Romans, the Coligny Calendar. It records a 19-year calendar with 12 and 13 months years. New year may have been something like "the second new moon after the equinox". But that is just my assumption based on the idea that they were consistent in their timekeeping. We know that the year began with the dark time (winter) and maybe the month and the day may have had a similar idea (new moon and sundown).

October 31?! How timely this conversation is.

 

[Heyo]

October 31?! How timely this conversation is.

Christians have invented a lot of Holy Days over the centuries and some were strategically put at the same (or around a) day, where a pagan feast was. All Saint's Day (aka Allhallows) was put on November 1st to coincide with (presumed) Samhain. The Day before became Allhallows Eve, later Halloween. So it has a veneer (and name) of Christianity, while the rites remained based on paganism.
Similar applies to Christmas, which is an appropriation of the Roman Saturnalia.
Easter, on the other hand, is a genuine Christian holy day, where pagan rituals were later added to it.
All genuine Christian, biblical holy days are floating holidays, as they go back to the Jewish lunar calendar, i.e. Good Friday, Easter, Ascension, Pentecost (and Ash Wednesday). All others are later inventions, when Christianity had adapted the Roman solar calendar.

 

[Elliott]

I was observing that there are two common measures by which we measure the start of a new day. One is at midnight when the new day literally begins, and the other is when we wake up in the morning to begin the new day. I was thinking that different religions or civilizations in history may have their own measure of the start of a new day and was wondering if anyone had any insight on the matter.

Does anyone else have any insight they'd wish to share on this matter?

 

[mangalavara]

Does anyone else have any insight they'd wish to share on this matter?

In Indic cultures and religions, a new solar day, called a din or dina, begins at sunrise. That is how I reckon the beginning of a new day. (So, while the day might already be Sunday when the time is 12:22 am on the Gregorian Calendar, for many of us it is still Saturday because the sun has not yet risen.)

I favor the view that a solar day begins at sunrise because it symbolizes newness, kind of like the blooming of a flower or the birth of a baby. If something is new, it has just appeared. Additionally, the bonus is that you can see the rising of the sun on the horizon whereas you cannot see the sun at midnight.

Although the Gregorian Calendar is used worldwide, I do not associate it with my identity and view of time. It is just something for appointments and schedules in my case. Further, it is ultimately the liturgical calendar of the Catholic Church, and I wish it would just remain that and that only. A more secular and universal calendar ought to be designed and implemented, in my opinion.

 

[bobhikes]

The problem I have working in Air Travel, and this shares the same problem with Ship travel is that you need consistent time to track location. So, the Sun which starts at a different time each day in the same location and a different time each day in a different location would be majorly bad for Air and Ship travel. For Air Travel for instance, we use Zulu time all over the world so pilots and Airtraffic controllers can all speak the same language and do not have to first interpret the time and possibly get it wrong.

 

[PureX]

They may have adopted that from the Egyptians. They had clepsydra that could be adjusted, depending on the month, to always divide the day and the night into twelve hours.

Why 12 segments instead of, say, 10, I wonder?

 

[Heyo]

Why 12 segments instead of, say, 10, I wonder?

The duodecimal and sexagesimal systems go even further back in time to the Sumerians. There are hypotheses that it may have to do with counting on the finger bones, but we don't know for sure.

 

[PureX]

I'm curious ... does anyone know why we humans chose to divide time into increments of 12 instead of 10? It does seem that 10 would have been an easier grouping to comprehend and to communicate to others (since we have 10 fingers).

 

[Altfish]

Why 12 segments instead of, say, 10, I wonder?

Somewhere in the back of my mind, I recall being taught that there used to be 10 months and July & August were added by the Romans, named after Julius and Augustus. It makes sense because September should be the 7th month, similarly October, November and December should be 8th, 9th & 10th months.

 

[Heyo]

Somewhere in the back of my mind, I recall being taught that there used to be 10 months and July & August were added by the Romans, named after Julius and Augustus. It makes sense because September should be the 7th month, similarly October, November and December should be 8th, 9th & 10th months.

That's because the Romans (before Julius Caesar) started the year in March.
Roman calendar - Wikipedia

 

[Elliott]

I'm curious ... does anyone know why we humans chose to divide time into increments of 12 instead of 10? It does seem that 10 would have been an easier grouping to comprehend and to communicate to others (since we have 10 fingers).

It would appear some ancient civilizations did have ten months while others had twelve. Those who had twelve months in all likelihood based this on the twelve constellations.